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Old 11-14-2008, 02:39 AM   #101
Mannix Moya
 
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote: View Post
People take many different things from Aikido.
If you want your aikido to be effective as a self defense at some point in your training you need to train against someone who is physically trying to stop you from performing the technique. (ie resisting)
+1
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:53 AM   #102
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Thumbs up Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote: View Post
People take many different things from Aikido.
If you want your aikido to be effective as a self defense at some point in your training you need to train against someone who is physically trying to stop you from performing the technique. (ie resisting)
+2 Beers Cheers to that!
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Old 11-14-2008, 02:02 PM   #103
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

I'd just like to say that the techniques in the video are not unique to aikido. Even most BJJ techniques used today are in judo if not also in traditional jiujitsu. It is just how you train that makes the difference.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 11-14-2008, 10:34 PM   #104
JO
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

BJJ is derived from judo which is derived from older jujutsu systems, not all that surprising to find they share techniques.

I find it hard to understand that so many aikidoka seem to never train with counters and resistance. I just spent the last half hour of my Friday aikido class with neither me nor my training partner managing a clean technique because we blocked and countered nearly every move. It wasn't done at anything near the intensity of an all out MMA competition, but every muscle in my slightly out of shape body was exausted at the end, so I consider it worth my time. Is this really that rare in aikido dojos? It's not like I would want all my training to be like this, that wouldn't actually be productive, but I wouldn't want to never do real jiyu waza. Maybe were just lucky to have an hour of free practice every Friday. Or maybe I'm just a hard headed pain in the ass to train with?

Jonathan Olson
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Old 11-15-2008, 04:42 AM   #105
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

I don't want to beat the aliveness thing to death. When UFC addicts go on about ZOMG Aliveness!!!!111 it makes me want to eat my face.

I think some Aikido students take insult over the idea that for Aikido to be more effective in a self defense senario it needs to be mixed with either another martial art OR an uke who is not only resisting but trying to hurt them.

At some point in their training;

-boxers stop shadow boxing and fight against opponents trying to smash them.
-police officers train to handcuff a fully resisting person
-soldiers will stop shooting at paper targets and war game with -lasers/paint type rounds against other soldiers trying to "kill" them
-many styles or martial arts compete

To listen to an aikido student speak (myself included) everyone will say I don't understand the fuss, we use resistance training at MY school, we must be different.... Everyone says this but I really don't know about that. If it was true it wouldn't be brought up so much.

As for spidy senses and training people for awareness maybe it's semantics. I don't see how you can train to be aware- awareness comes from being physically put in stressful situations. Police officers, soldiers, firemen heck kids growing up in bad neighbourhoods. That all comes with being subjected to those environments. You can't really train for something like that completly though training does help.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 11-15-2008, 05:44 AM   #106
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Grant,

very good post.

Training has to be a "layered" process, IMO. We do this in the military all the time.

The best way to train soldiers for combat is to put them in actual combat...that is.... to have situations that are "alive" where they are shooting at others with live bullets, and the other guys can shoot back with live bullets.

lol...

Of course we cannot use this as a methodology! we'd have no recruitment or any soldiers left to really fight!!!

AND it would be a "sink or swim" mentality of training.

Good Martial Pedagogies understand and account for this through what I called "layered simulation".

That is,

you define training boundaries and constraints to train various aspects that you want to enhance. THe boundaries allow you to train that area and offer a safe environment in order to allow for that.

Aliveness is never really 100% alive. But you approximate it in various ways.

Kata is good for developing good habits, posture, and correct movement.

We call this "reflexive fire drills" , "dry fires", "Pre-Marksmanship" training in the military. (It is Kata).

Not much aliveness there, but you need to develop these things in order to use your weapon correct.

You then need to actually go to the range and fire live bullets for "marksmanship".

We have MILES laser systems, simunitions for simulated fire....etc..

Well you see my point...

On environmental issues. They can be trained, but you are correct, of course, you have to be subjected to those environments.

Do your training outside, fully clothed, in the dark, on the street, with the noises, wetness, temperature, objects...etc. So when you are in a "situation" you are not necesarily facing sensory overload from dealing with all this for the first time.

I think most of you can imagine that training this way is a full time job!

It is! and then some!

So, then it boils down to "cost/benefit".

"What is the best use of my time for the greatest gain?"

I think for the average Aikidoka that this model does not represent a good cost/benefit ratio.

You can study budo for many reasons. I do agree that budo is not about showing up each week habitually and doing the same moves over and over, but constantly exposing yourself to weaknesses and challenges and pushing the your envelope to learn and grow.

That is, getting outside of your comfort zone.

That will be personal and what "getting outside of your comfort zone" means to a 22 year old, athletic male and a 60 year old, non-athletic female...well that may be entirely two different things!

However, I think there is room in budo for both.

Maybe not the same dojo or on the same night in the same dojo, but definitely both can study aikido and come together and train on a common ground at some point.

I think the problem for many of us, especially us middle aged males, is that we simply are frustrated alot with aikido because we see the potential, but many times it leaves us wanting more from our training.

We are meeting the objectives for some of the students on one side of the equation, but not the other!

This is a very important thing I think we need to consider.

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Old 11-15-2008, 09:08 AM   #107
Ketsan
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote: View Post

To listen to an aikido student speak (myself included) everyone will say I don't understand the fuss, we use resistance training at MY school, we must be different.... Everyone says this but I really don't know about that. If it was true it wouldn't be brought up so much.
If you're training for kuzushi on contact (or even before if you're leading) how do you have resistance training when resistance requires balance?
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Old 11-15-2008, 10:27 AM   #108
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Because "kuzushi on contact" is easier said than done. Also uke's work is avoid having his balance taken or recover it asap and, you know, sometimes he succeeds.

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Old 11-16-2008, 09:11 AM   #109
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
If you're training for kuzushi on contact (or even before if you're leading) how do you have resistance training when resistance requires balance?
Can you explain to me what kuzushi on contact is?

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 11-16-2008, 10:26 AM   #110
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
If you're training for kuzushi on contact (or even before if you're leading) how do you have resistance training when resistance requires balance?
I'm not perfect. I wish I was. Most of the guys I'm facing are not fully committed to their attacks. They want to hurt me, but they are also intelligent fighters.

This means I have to be that much better to throw them. This is honesty in training and it works.

Same is true in bjj. I can do all sorts of cool stuff against a first day student. Put me against a good purple belt and watch me flounder around and appearing to be much less skilled them I am.

The question is, which one of those guys is teaching me more?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 11-16-2008, 12:41 PM   #111
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote: View Post
Can you explain to me what kuzushi on contact is?
The moment your hand touches them, their posture is broken and/or they're off balance.
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Old 11-16-2008, 01:53 PM   #112
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I'm not perfect. I wish I was. Most of the guys I'm facing are not fully committed to their attacks. They want to hurt me, but they are also intelligent fighters.

This means I have to be that much better to throw them. This is honesty in training and it works.

Same is true in bjj. I can do all sorts of cool stuff against a first day student. Put me against a good purple belt and watch me flounder around and appearing to be much less skilled them I am.

The question is, which one of those guys is teaching me more?
I think the answer can be both. When going against newbs, especially decent wrestlers, they move in very unpredictiable ways. Usually fast and very committed to what they are trying to do. In many ways you have to be on top of your game. Of course the holes are amazingly big, but it also allows you to take some risk and try stuff that you might be working on.

As you state, with experienced fighters, it becomes more of a game of chess, smaller gaps, attacks don't commit until there is a mistake made. Sometimes you have to open up a hole hoping they will take the bait!

Man I love the game!

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Old 11-16-2008, 02:13 PM   #113
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I'm not perfect. I wish I was. Most of the guys I'm facing are not fully committed to their attacks. They want to hurt me, but they are also intelligent fighters.

This means I have to be that much better to throw them. This is honesty in training and it works.

Same is true in bjj. I can do all sorts of cool stuff against a first day student. Put me against a good purple belt and watch me flounder around and appearing to be much less skilled them I am.

The question is, which one of those guys is teaching me more?
Both guys are teaching you equally as much, but they're teaching different things.
I can relate to this in an Aikido sense. I can break my instructors posture only rarely, he doesn't even have to resist, he can just stand there totally relaxed.
If he wants he can chuck me all around the room, although it is becoming more difficult for him because Aikidoka naturally become resistant to Aikido.

My instructor is a useful check of my overall progress within Aikido, one day I'll be able to consistantly break his posture on contact, like I can with new guys and lower grades.

The new guy is equally useful though, he puts my progress within Aikido in a bigger context.
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Old 11-16-2008, 02:50 PM   #114
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
As you state, with experienced fighters, it becomes more of a game of chess, smaller gaps, attacks don't commit until there is a mistake made. Sometimes you have to open up a hole hoping they will take the bait!
Like the founder used to say in Budo, Teachings of the Founder of Aikido:

"Fill yourself with ki and invite your opponent to strike with shomen (or yokomen) ..."

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Old 11-17-2008, 02:27 PM   #115
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
...If he wants he can chuck me all around the room, although it is becoming more difficult for him because Aikidoka naturally become resistant to Aikido.
I've kinda observed the opposite in my very limited observations...

Lower-ranking aikidoka become less resistant to higher-ranking aikidoka's aikido to be precise.
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Old 11-17-2008, 03:51 PM   #116
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Actually I have observed both phenomena. Some become more resistant, but quite a few end up with the "aiki" affect. that is, they get so used to "doing" aikido that they begin to form their own paradigm.

I even found out I was doing it a few months ago when I went to Judo and they had to keep reminding me not to jump into the ukemi on throws.

There are little affects that you pick up when you study with the same folks day after day year after year. It gets established in your paradigm.

All goes well until you meet someone that doesn't understand your paradigm and then things don't work, and we say they are more resistant!

Dissonance at it's finest moment!

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Old 11-17-2008, 08:38 PM   #117
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Lower-ranking aikidoka become less resistant to higher-ranking aikidoka's aikido to be precise.
This reminds me an old thread:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9226

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Old 12-01-2008, 03:02 PM   #118
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Depends on a lot of things again, Skill or practictioners, Speed, Agility, etc etc etc. I'm fed up of posts with "such and such VS such and such" There is far too many aspects to take into consideration!

-G-
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Old 12-01-2008, 05:04 PM   #119
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Graham Butt wrote: View Post
Depends on a lot of things again, Skill or practictioners, Speed, Agility, etc etc etc. I'm fed up of posts with "such and such VS such and such" There is far too many aspects to take into consideration!

-G-
So what is the alternative? throw up your hands and say "I give up! It is hopeless?"

That is, far too many aspects that it does not warrant exploration or study?

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Old 12-01-2008, 06:14 PM   #120
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I'd apply a stun gun the Aikido way..blend, harmonize and ZAPP! I am an Aikidoka who thinking out side ring.
+1 on that. CCW , stun and gun.

IMO, I've studied MMA and would venture to say most decent MMA could take most BB in Aikido and I'll say why. Any decent MMA can deliver a side kick that most folks can't see, much less stop or avoid. Several of those will bring down the toughest folks. Speaking of taking down, if a decent MMA (equivilant to a BB) wants to take you down, most folks can't stop that either. How many Aikidoka can grapple? Grapple very good? We used to go 5 rounds of kickboxing, 2 hrs of grappling and then go run stadium stairs- 6 days a week. The typical joint locks in Aikido won't work with these folks, they know all those locks and then some and live to get out of the toughest holds.

IMO, we're talking apples and oranges. Like Krav Maga is apples and oranges to MMA. MMA has rules, KM doesn't. If one wants to learn to rip into someone's skin and tear it off their body and bust skulls and poke out eyes, etc, there's someone to teach it, but does that make it the best? Best what? Best at maiming and killing someone? That's a good thing how? That's not a martial art, that's an animal.

Like most folks here say, alot of variables will stack the deck( read that, get lucky), but that'd be the exeption to the rule.

But that's not why I'm drawn to Aikido. To me, the best martial Art is an overall art that shapes the overall person to be the best they can be. I believe Aikido will do that for me.

Btw, MMA is not a fad, mark my words, it'll soon be as popular as rasslin', NASCAR and Monster Trucks. Heck, maybe even baseball, but NEVER 3 on 3 female beach volleyball.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-01-2008, 08:13 PM   #121
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
My instructor is a useful check of my overall progress within Aikido, one day I'll be able to consistantly break his posture on contact, like I can with new guys and lower grades.
You are assuming that your instructor will not continue to grow or that your growth will outpace his over time. But won't he have the benefit of learning from you and adapting to your growth as you continue your practice together?

Ron
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Old 12-01-2008, 08:48 PM   #122
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
When going against newbs, especially decent wrestlers, they move in very unpredictiable ways.
good point. my training partner last week was a student in his very first class. i couldn't believe how hard it was to get him down, and it put a lot of things in perspective.
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Old 12-02-2008, 12:05 PM   #123
graham butt
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Whats the alternative???? in a real situation, The alternative for me is ALWAYS to run! I have been in situations where i couldn't run but i got my friends and girlfriend outta there then ran! You don't have to fight. If however you mean an alternative whilst training then you should just train, no need for an alternative cause it's about developing yourselves, teaching each other.
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Old 12-02-2008, 12:14 PM   #124
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

What does it matter which one is better? I have trained in Aikido, MMA and Kali and with people from many backgrounds. I have met Aikido who are trying out MMA in the gym for the first time and have had difficulty tapping them out. Alternatively, I have trained in Aikido with some MMA guys and found them to be a challenge on their first lesson. Their skill in the classes they tried for the first time meant they didn't win but their skill in their own arts they brought in meant they didn't lose either.
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Old 12-02-2008, 04:03 PM   #125
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Graham Butt wrote: View Post
Whats the alternative???? in a real situation, The alternative for me is ALWAYS to run! I have been in situations where i couldn't run but i got my friends and girlfriend outta there then ran! You don't have to fight. If however you mean an alternative whilst training then you should just train, no need for an alternative cause it's about developing yourselves, teaching each other.
I think in order to train properly you need to focus on an endstate of some sort. IMO and experiences, training just for the sake of training produces alot of frustration, causes lots of confusion, and leads to a hodge podge of misunderstanding, misinterpretations, and you end up with something that resembles a practice, but not really sure what it is exactly.

Not saying everything ought to be about MMA as being the great yardstick by which all should be measured.

However, asking such questions and seeking for answers is healthy and necessary I believe in order to have something that is useful, relevant, and resembles a martial art.

I think if running were the answer to everything, then we'd simply go to the local track and teach folks how to run more efficiently, longer, and faster.

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