Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-09-2008, 05:29 AM   #76
Enrique Antonio Reyes
Dojo: Yuugou Aikido Kaisho
Location: Manila
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 132
Philippines
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
There are no "land mines" really in these threads. Except by those that want to create them.

The fact of the matter is that folks really want straight answers and honestly want to know how they might handle certain situations.
I sincerely agree with what you say Kevin. Some people just need to find out what the majority of us think about a certain situation.

One-Aiki,

Iking
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2008, 07:39 PM   #77
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
I also disagree with the claim fighting skill can't be taught. Strongly disagree.
TBH on reflection I don't like the term "fighting skill" for what I'm talking about. You can teach techniques and tactics, fine, no argument there, you can tune them to a fine pitch with sparring and competition, fine, again no argument.

I don't think the relaxed awareness, intuition or sensitivity to surroundings that allows someone to avoid trouble or maintain the initative through the prefight ritual can be taught though.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2008, 07:51 PM   #78
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

You CAN learn to relax, and gain intuition and sensitivity to your surroundings. It comes with time and experience. We train this stuff in the military all the time.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2008, 08:42 AM   #79
Guilty Spark
 
Guilty Spark's Avatar
Location: Flordia
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 300
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
You CAN learn to relax, and gain intuition and sensitivity to your surroundings. It comes with time and experience. We train this stuff in the military all the time.
100%

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2008, 03:04 PM   #80
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
You CAN learn to relax, and gain intuition and sensitivity to your surroundings. It comes with time and experience. We train this stuff in the military all the time.
It's a different situation in the military though, you're immersed in a culture which teaches and expects this kind of thing.
Things are a little bit different, IMO, for someone studying MA out in civilian life, unless you're on an uchi deshi program or something and even then I doubt an uchi deshi program is as effective at implanting a mindset as the military is.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2008, 03:42 PM   #81
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
It's a different situation in the military though, you're immersed in a culture which teaches and expects this kind of thing.
Things are a little bit different, IMO, for someone studying MA out in civilian life, unless you're on an uchi deshi program or something and even then I doubt an uchi deshi program is as effective at implanting a mindset as the military is.
I'd say my bjj training has given me the same thing. I'm much calmer now in stressful situations and in the few events where I have been put to task I have performed in a manner very close to my actual training.

Alive training can teach the skills. What you can't teach is athletic ability. I can execute my techniques under stress as well as any other practitioner, but I will never be as fast and as strong as some of the natural talent. My body was designed to be a small computer nerd.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2008, 03:42 PM   #82
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Your environment is your environment. People learn to adapt to them and learn how to be "street smart" in them.

Your statement was categorically that these things can't be taught.

There is a big difference between "can't" and "generally are not".

I would go for "generally not" and agree as aikido is normally not based on a "stress induction" model.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2008, 03:56 PM   #83
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I'd say my bjj training has given me the same thing. I'm much calmer now in stressful situations and in the few events where I have been put to task I have performed in a manner very close to my actual training.

Alive training can teach the skills. What you can't teach is athletic ability. I can execute my techniques under stress as well as any other practitioner, but I will never be as fast and as strong as some of the natural talent. My body was designed to be a small computer nerd.
Ah, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about anything at the start or during a fight or in any kind of stressful situation.
I'm talking about way before any of that

I'm talking about being switched on enough to see everything that happens in a public space even if there's nothing threatening going on.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2008, 03:56 PM   #84
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

83 83 83 83 83 84 84 84 84

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2008, 04:20 PM   #85
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Your environment is your environment. People learn to adapt to them and learn how to be "street smart" in them.

Your statement was categorically that these things can't be taught.

There is a big difference between "can't" and "generally are not".

I would go for "generally not" and agree as aikido is normally not based on a "stress induction" model.
I think we're talking about two different things. I'm not talking about stress induction. I agree totally that all training makes you better able to deal with stress, no argument there.

I'm not talking about that though. I'm talking partly about being streetwise and switched on, but more about setting up an opponent mentally so that he becomes predictable.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2008, 04:42 PM   #86
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,907
Spain
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
I'm not talking about that though. I'm talking partly about being streetwise and switched on
Can be (re)trained. I mean, this is our natural state, but living in a peaceful environment makes us a bit deaf about the signals. Grow in or move to a dangerous environment and things start to change.
Quote:
but more about setting up an opponent mentally so that he becomes predictable.
You need to fill yourself with ki for that.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2008, 05:24 PM   #87
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Can be (re)trained. I mean, this is our natural state, but living in a peaceful environment makes us a bit deaf about the signals. Grow in or move to a dangerous environment and things start to change.
Yeah, I'd agree with that. The thing I've noticed about people that have grown up in rough environments is that they can smell trouble a mile off. They're aware of danger long before most people are.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2008, 05:46 PM   #88
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Well, yea, sure.

Most of us are keying in on the fact that you said Can't be trained.

I agree that folks that are from a certain area will typically be more in tune to the subtle differences than someone that is not from that area.

However, put someone in that environment and they will immediately begin to "learn" and "process"....that is, if they have half a wit about them or it is of concern to them.

Certainly there are folks that will never figure it out no matter where you put them or what you train them on!

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2008, 08:52 AM   #89
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 813
Malaysia
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Kevin, this aliveness you keep mentioning ... it it the mental alertness you gain from being in a volatile/dangerous environment? Kind of 'weapons live' situation? Is this how you train in aikido?

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2008, 10:49 AM   #90
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Can be (re)trained. I mean, this is our natural state, but living in a peaceful environment makes us a bit deaf about the signals. Grow in or move to a dangerous environment and things start to change.
Actually I feel much more streetwise after my little Budo experience... 100% agree with this.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2008, 11:17 AM   #91
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Kevin, this aliveness you keep mentioning ... it it the mental alertness you gain from being in a volatile/dangerous environment? Kind of 'weapons live' situation? Is this how you train in aikido?
From my perspective, no it is not the same thing I am talking about when talking about aliveness in training.

Aliveness in training is best explained by this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3r-G33oKHc

We (at least in my aikido training) don't train for the "street environment". We have enough to concentrate on just working on aikido.

When you start talking about environmental parameters it can be different for everyone in the dojo depending on their jobs, situations, size, sex, communities etc.

I think you need to be very careful when you start injecting this stuff into the dojo environment. Philosophically I am somewhat against it as it can serve to breed the wrong things in folks. Hypervigilance, paranoria and fear, which I think are counterproductive to what we are trying to do in aikido. At least that is my opinion.

Not saying that you should not work with folks to teach them to be "smart" in these areas, just that you need to be careful about the balance of this type of training.

Police, military, and those that are "high risk" in these areas typically figure it out, or have other training that supplements "dojo" training.

Counter to this is producing "feel good" aikibunnies...well that too can be a problem! right?

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2008, 12:39 PM   #92
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,907
Spain
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I think you need to be very careful when you start injecting this stuff into the dojo environment. Philosophically I am somewhat against it as it can serve to breed the wrong things in folks. Hypervigilance, paranoria and fear, which I think are counterproductive to what we are trying to do in aikido. At least that is my opinion.
...
Counter to this is producing "feel good" aikibunnies...well that too can be a problem! right?
Finding the balance...

I'd like to point to these articles by Toby Threadgill Sensei about stress induction in training an its effects.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=593
http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=593

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2008, 01:17 PM   #93
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Thanks for the links. I will be training with Threadgill sensei in 48 hours so I really appreciate the links!

I think he is spot on actually with his outlook on this. Sums it up very well.

Aliveness, IMO, is a big trainer of the PCS he discusses. Also teaches you to make appropriate responses (Timing) for the giving conditions, which while a part of PCS, I think timing is something separate.

WRT to "environmental awareness" I think PCS to be a little different based, although related.

Good stuff, and again thanks!

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 12:57 PM   #94
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

I ran across, what looks to be Aikido techniques used in MMA. Interesting to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxm09...eature=related
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 01:22 PM   #95
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Saw that before, still makes me smile...

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 08:13 PM   #96
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I ran across, what looks to be Aikido techniques used in MMA. Interesting to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxm09...eature=related
If you look at most aikido techniques you quickly see they are obvious in their effect (the same is true with 99% of all martial arts). The question is can you perform them repeatably in a high stress situation.

Given a guy's arm as in the last half of that clip I am sure I could twist it around like that, but much less sure I could break it with any reliability.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 09:19 PM   #97
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Don, that is really the crux of the whole issue. Aikido is a methodology, not a collection of techniques. Sure, I could troll through a bunch of fights and stop at points in many of them and say "yup" see, there is aikido. Of course, the princples are universal!

The issue is as you state, have you developed your abilities to the point that you can repeat it under very stressful conditions.

Then you get into the whole "high percentage" issue as well. "doing what works"...most of the time against the average joe in the typical situaiton.

I am betting I will still be piecing this together for myself for many, many years.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 09:35 PM   #98
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Don,

Good question. Only repetitive practice under high stress situation will tell.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 09:37 PM   #99
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Yes...agreed Salim!

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2008, 01:51 AM   #100
Guilty Spark
 
Guilty Spark's Avatar
Location: Flordia
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 300
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido vs MMA figther

People take many different things from Aikido.
If you want your aikido to be effective as a self defense at some point in your training you need to train against someone who is physically trying to stop you from performing the technique. (ie resisting)

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Seminar with Frank Doran, Shihan - Aug. 8-10, 2014 at Sunset Cliff's Aikido, near San Diego's finest beaches



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 6 Peter Goldsbury Columns 35 03-13-2009 06:16 PM
The continued Evolution of Aikido salim General 716 12-27-2008 10:00 PM
Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 08:31 AM
Women and Everybody Else in Aikido George S. Ledyard Teaching 113 03-16-2008 07:27 PM
Dilution of aikido eugene_lo General 40 02-07-2006 11:22 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:21 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate