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Old 11-05-2008, 01:34 PM   #51
David Paul
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post

MMA is about challenging and Aikido to a cockfight,

Aikidoka's have a higher probability of fighting of a dog attack then fighting professionally in an MMA cockfight. In fact an Aikidoka is more likely to get into a street fight then a pro MMA cockfight. :
Just curious why you feel the need to denigrate MMA by referring to it as a "cockfight"?

Also-not related to your post-but generally speaking-in reality these two things have nothing to do with each other. MMA is a combat sport, Aikido is not. Doesn't mean one is better than the other-it just means they are different things.
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Old 11-05-2008, 03:55 PM   #52
Buck
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Cockfight is used because describes a contest where gamecocks are pitted against in a ring fitted with metal spurs and the loser usually is killed. And the similarities of cockfight with MMA like having audience, trainers, handlers etc. The word also represents the intensity of the contest which is an all out violent bloody fight that entertains.

I know some see it more romanticized then I, but cockfighting is not to be condescending as I am also a fan.
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Old 11-05-2008, 04:36 PM   #53
Gregory Pinkerton
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Cockfight is used because describes a contest where gamecocks are pitted against in a ring fitted with metal spurs and the loser usually is killed. And the similarities of cockfight with MMA like having audience, trainers, handlers etc. The word also represents the intensity of the contest which is an all out violent bloody fight that entertains.
Pardon my asking, but how does that differ from any number of competitive arts or sports for that matter? Kendo, Judo, Karate, BJJ, even fencing, football, and others share that commonality. (Why not just use the term 'fight' in your analogy instead of 'cockfight'? Since the latter has two major traits that don't hold for competitive sports and martial arts. No consent by the participants to 'enter the arena' so to speak, and often to the death.)
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Old 11-05-2008, 04:43 PM   #54
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Kevin,

I don't think it is a good idea to get too intellectually philosophical on this topic, because it isn't of that nature. What is being discussed doesn't need the heavy intellectual philosophical arguments discussed in ivory towers of what reality is and what isn't. Though I think you could do it. I am just not willing to stray in that direction on this topic in this thread. You brought in the inclusive and dualism ideas. I have no problems on how you see things. But, I just don't agree in this topic fits that, because of the first post starts off. Just look at the title of the thread. They we are presented with a hypothetical. We should be discussing the validity of that hypothetical.

As I said be before, since these threads are land mines, I would use a stun gun. We think of Aikido only within the time period of when it was created and back from there. This doesn't allow for new weaponry etc. like a stun gun with I feel fits within the design of Aikido because it is not lethal. If we train against and with weapons like knifes, staffs, guns and swords, why train to use a stun gun? Keep this in mind when your re-read Tony Wagstaffe's excellent post.

It is much more challenging to discuss that what I just said then go off on a tangent criticizing each other's personal views and philosophies.
There are no "land mines" really in these threads. Except by those that want to create them.

The fact of the matter is that folks really want straight answers and honestly want to know how they might handle certain situations.

Unfortunately, IMO, the answers are not as simple as "use a stun gun" or "hit them with a chair". If it were that simple, well why do we even need to study Aiki, Aiki Budo, or any empty hand martial art for that matter?

Escalation of force and conflict resolution are very complex topics. Not "land mines", but complex situations that require skillfullness.

So, yes, it does require us to look at problems the right way. that is, boil them down to the root of the problem, remove emotion, and look it holisitically.

In all situations, there is a "force continuum" that is, their is a start, a middle, and an end. The end is "what happens after the fight".

Talk to survivors of violent encounters, police officers that have used deadly force, or soldiers about the choices they made and how they felt after it was all over. How well they were prepared prior to the event has much to do with how they fare after it is over.

"just use a stun gun". If it were only that simple.

So yes, it does, IMO, require you to discuss the topic in terms of mind, body, and spirit. To address it from a perspective of budo, and to look at the complexity of the situation.

you know...use a degree of skillfulness.

It is why I hope we have folks doing aikido.

The validity of the hypothetical?

It is valid because the poster asked the question...period.

What those that post a response owe him is a well thought out, straightforward, and responsible response that answers his question in a skillful manner.

Not, "use a stun gun".

So, yes, I do believe it is important to consider philosophy, ethics, and morality anytime we discuss use of force and reality, otherwise....this is the whole point of aikido...really any martial art.

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Old 11-05-2008, 04:48 PM   #55
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Cockfight is used because describes a contest where gamecocks are pitted against in a ring fitted with metal spurs and the loser usually is killed. And the similarities of cockfight with MMA like having audience, trainers, handlers etc. The word also represents the intensity of the contest which is an all out violent bloody fight that entertains.

I know some see it more romanticized then I, but cockfighting is not to be condescending as I am also a fan.
well as an above poster presented, there is a big difference and it has to do with consent.

Only in the "trappings" does it have anything in common. A ring, audience and training.

the ethics of it are entirely two different things.

Your a fan of cockfighting?

If so, you and I have some MAJOR difference on ethics and morales for sure.

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Old 11-07-2008, 10:31 AM   #56
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I 'm not taking that bet. If I answer Kevin it will go over a hundred
It's already more than halfway there. Reminds me of this line from Guys and Dolls: "Daddy! I've got cider in my ear."
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Old 11-07-2008, 02:30 PM   #57
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Martial arts don't fight, martial artists do. It's skill not style.

Northern Virginia Tenshinkai Aikido
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Old 11-07-2008, 02:34 PM   #58
Ron Tisdale
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Your a fan of cockfighting?

If so, you and I have some MAJOR difference on ethics and morales for sure.
Me too, Kevin, me to...
B,
R

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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 11-07-2008, 08:14 PM   #59
Douglas Fajardo
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Well budo is a way of life , the way of the samurai , the way of the soldier as a profesional killing weapon , the ninjas were mercenary a long time ago, vikings they had their own vison of life,and fight ,everybody has his vison,, budo, bushido., buda, the tao ereybody has his own vision as a warrior or religious man, the idea is to find you inside of you, to find the real you , defeat yourself and the you will win īcause you have control of your mind ,,,, thats is my fellows the real place where we wanna go , (real calm inside the storm) MMA figthers has his own vision at the beginnig the idea was to beat everyone and be the best fighter thatīs not new, competion exist a long time ago with rules or wihtout,but now is diferent, now is a show,but be careful this fighters can kick your head off , after the desaster on PPV Gracie family sold the UFC they wanna a UFC without rules like old figthers, but we are not use to see such a violence, I guess that the same happend with Aikido We can not figt in competiton and that why most of the people that I knowin Aikido are fat ,lazy,coward ,always talking about budo , that they are superior in Aikido , i think that the real warrior is the one hwo knows diferent Martial Arts and face the death but seeking it , for me trainning MMA .Aikido . jiu jutsu ,muay thai and others make me better figther ,and always prepare for the unknow
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Old 11-07-2008, 08:29 PM   #60
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Paul Wallace wrote: View Post
Martial arts don't fight, martial artists do. It's skill not style.
I would say it's both. I have seen many people come in with ability, but they do not get skill until they train in a style.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 11-07-2008, 09:04 PM   #61
Buck
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post

"just use a stun gun". If it were only that simple.
You make too much of it Kevin, it is that simple. The goal isn't who can prove x or y, but instead the goal is to defend yourself and survive in a non-sport arena vs. winning money and fame in a sport arena. Aikido doesn't concern its self with the latter. MMA does. Simple, oil and water doesn't mix. It doesn't have too.
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Old 11-07-2008, 09:10 PM   #62
Buck
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
well as an above poster presented, there is a big difference and it has to do with consent.

Only in the "trappings" does it have anything in common. A ring, audience and training.

the ethics of it are entirely two different things.

Your a fan of cockfighting?

If so, you and I have some MAJOR difference on ethics and morales for sure.

See Kevin you got me thinking you at times are like Max Weber:
"Weber incorporated a distinctively psychological level into his definition of the basic substance of sociology and social action. Action is defined as such "insofar as the acting individual attaches a subjective meaning to his behavior - be it overt or covert, omission or acquiescence." Action is "social" insofar as "its subjective meaning takes account of the behavior of others and is thereby oriented in its course".

"Weber's concern with subjective meaning implies that he regarded the individual as motivated, assessing his environment in terms of its significance for him, and organizing his behavior accordingly; furthermore, social action cannot be understood, described, or analyzed without reference to this subjective meaning."

Dude it fits. Bravo.

Last edited by Buck : 11-07-2008 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 11-07-2008, 10:04 PM   #63
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
You make too much of it Kevin, it is that simple. The goal isn't who can prove x or y, but instead the goal is to defend yourself and survive in a non-sport arena vs. winning money and fame in a sport arena. Aikido doesn't concern its self with the latter. MMA does. Simple, oil and water doesn't mix. It doesn't have too.
Seems to me from reading posts here that most aikido simply aims to keep a tradition alive and not either of the things listed above.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 11-07-2008, 10:13 PM   #64
Buck
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

I think thread like this that are MMA challenges Aikido truly a oil and water don't mix thing, and it shouldn't have to. If MMA is superior to Aikido then why challenge Aikido?

Human cockfight a.k.a cockfighting for short where two men beat each other in a brutal vicious way which is often very bloody until one submits under rules in a ring, it is starkly different from that of Aikido. I say this in that way as a delineation that MMA and Aikido are different from each other, and there is no reason to pit them against each other. You did agree in so many of your posts.

For me I am not here to change the you see things. I am responding to the post a simple training method. It is too messy for me to get all caught up in a complexity of philosophical views on what is or isn't. That I leave to the philosophers of then and now.

Occham's Razor is the root of my opinion of the use of the stun gun. And keeping Aikido as it was intended a much as possible, i..e. no teaching kids, it wasn't part of the 60's hippy movement etc. Working to keep it's shape. That doesn't mean not changing i.e. different Aikido styles shouldn't exist but keep it Aikido. For example, the stun gun works withnin Aikido where a gun doesn't.

Last edited by Buck : 11-07-2008 at 10:18 PM.
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Old 11-08-2008, 06:51 AM   #65
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Peter Chenier wrote: View Post
If may contribute...

Aikido is a way. MMA is a sport... never confuse the two. You'll grow old and have a good life if you figure it out! ;0)

Respectfully

Peter
Disagree in a way.

To a lot of people MMA and UFC et el *IS* a way of life.
They want to live eat breathep rocreate MMA and/OR UFC. You've seen them around.
Wearing TAPOUT shirts, hats, gym bags, stickers on their truck.

I realize what you meant but to a lot of people MMA is the same way Aikido is to us.

To the OP,

I've started doing MMA over here (I'ma green belt in Yoshinkan) and I love MMA. (Kevin Leavitt started me on the path). Some people try it out and quit their other martial art, say Aikido. Others choose to do both. Me I'm the latter. I still love Aikido, just approach them both differently.

Chances of an Aikido dude beating up a MMA professional fighter are practically non-existant. I think the chances of someone with 1 year of MMA training will most likely hold their own against someone with say 10 times that amount of Aikido training.

Training to not hurt your attacker (ideally) or use a "scalpul" as it were is a hell of a lot harder than just smashing someones head in.

Some people don't understand why we would practice Aikido when you get 100% more short term (heck even long term) gains from MMA as far as fighting goes (than Aikido)
Manyof the same people seem to have an uncontrollable need to point out how powerful and awesome MMA is and how it beats everything else. People equate practicing this to being better than someone else and it makes them feel better about being higher on the hirarchy ladder.
Some people just enjoy Aikido as a martial art with all it's pro and cons. Some people can make it work in a fight others can't.

On a side note, considering the way Samurai behaved in both ancient japan and even in WW2 (well perhaps samurai orientated warriors?) I'm not too keen on emulating them. Don't forget Douglas Ninja were sometimes Samurai with 2 jobs.

Last edited by Guilty Spark : 11-08-2008 at 06:54 AM.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 11-08-2008, 06:58 AM   #66
Andrew S
 
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

In all likelihood the MMA fighter will win. Now can we get back to training?

Warning: Do not bend, fold or otherwise abuse... until we get to the dojo..


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Old 11-08-2008, 07:16 AM   #67
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

OMG I can't believe this post is still going on!

Grant with regard to your statement ". I think the chances of someone with 1 year of MMA training will most likely hold their own against someone with say 10 times that amount of Aikido training."

Doubt it.A lot of the Aikido guys I know also have background in other martial arts. Plus 10years will generally trump 1 year any day assuming both schools are competent and factors like size and age are equal.

This Idea that MMA is something new and unique blows me away. Bruce Lee's whole Philosophy was based on being ecclectic and " having no style so you can become all styles" , "absorb what is useful" and all that other jazz.

I also believe you need to become reasonably proficient(several years of training) in some type of Martial arts style before you start branching out too much otherwise you become like a tree which has very short roots. You may get blown over with the first strong wind... Just my opinion for what its worth..
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Old 11-08-2008, 07:51 AM   #68
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

That's cool Gregg

I guess it would count a lot on the amount of time a student attends classes, the quality of their school, the quality of their training.

I'm basing my opinion off of taking Aikido for a few years - 3 times a week and taking MMA 3 times a week for 2 months.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 11-08-2008, 01:28 PM   #69
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
You make too much of it Kevin, it is that simple. The goal isn't who can prove x or y, but instead the goal is to defend yourself and survive in a non-sport arena vs. winning money and fame in a sport arena. Aikido doesn't concern its self with the latter. MMA does. Simple, oil and water doesn't mix. It doesn't have too.
I think aikido has very little to do with "defending and surviving". That is a reactive state to be in.

Instead I think aikido is more about "engaging and living".

Might seem like a play on words or semantics, but I really believe it is an important distinction in paradigm.

Defending and surviving is rudimentary, non-skilled, reactive in nature. A defense mentality builds boundaries, walls, and protective mechanisms. It makes us walk around in fear and worried. It is not concerned with understanding the nature and causes of conflict, but simply with "avoidance", "moving away", "lashing out"

Engaging means to be proactive and embracing. It is more challenging to be this way. It means coming out from behind "the wire". Facing your enemy, fears etc. Looking them in the eye and dealing with them in the most skillfull way you can.

Aikido as a do art teaches us how to live a good life, not how to survive. Surviving is "just getting by".

I want more out of life than that.

If you want to defend and survive, save your dojo fees and go buy a stun gun. They are much cheaper and will get you closer to your goal than studying martial arts.

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Old 11-08-2008, 02:04 PM   #70
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Well said!

I am not an expert
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Old 11-08-2008, 02:39 PM   #71
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

I am sorry Kevin, my fault for being too subjective for you in the use of survival and should have been more considerate thus, more definite for your understanding.

Please see my post in the thread titled Aikido Or Squash it gives a good picture of what I mean by survival.

I don't disagree with the other things you said, but as you laid it out I don't think it really directly has any impact on this current discussion; good OFT ideas that I would agree with under another discussion.
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Old 11-08-2008, 05:18 PM   #72
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I would say it's both. I have seen many people come in with ability, but they do not get skill until they train in a style.
Thats, not really what i was saying. Sorry to be so vague. Let me explain. If say Shioda Sensei was attacked by a no name with, lets say, three years experience in, oh, any martial art take your pick. Do you think the guy won't get totally raped on the spot? Now if I got attacked by, I don't know, a UFC champion fighter I'd probably be in trouble because despite my seven years in aikido, training has not filled up the whole of my days for that time. You see what I'm saying?

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Old 11-08-2008, 08:36 PM   #73
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Greg Block wrote:

Quote:
Doubt it.A lot of the Aikido guys I know also have background in other martial arts. Plus 10years will generally trump 1 year any day assuming both schools are competent and factors like size and age are equal
Of course my experiences don't count or speak for everyone's and every situation, so please keep this in mind.

However, I had about 10 years experience in MA and 8 or so in Aikido.

When we first started Army Combatives in my unit, I had guys with LESS than 1 years experience whooping my ass. It was really disconcerting for me.

That said, I got with the program and started fixing what was wrong with my trainng. Within about 6 months I was equal to them. 3 years later, I have surpassed them.

My aikido training was very relevant, however, what I was missing was "aliveness" which counted for very much!

Now that I understand that aspect, I have no problems anymore.

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Old 11-08-2008, 09:44 PM   #74
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

What we're talking about here is fighting skill, which can't be taught.
In my experience the best MA students are people who have had it a bit rough in life, they come with an aliveness and awareness that you can't teach. You can read that as paranoia because until the emotional content is removed through training that's what it is.

If you take someone like that it pretty much doesn't matter what you teach them, within reason, if they're taught well they're going to end up being dangerous to anyone they meet.

Out on the street it isn't how good your art is, it's wheather you realise you're in trouble or not and if you're used enough to being in trouble to deal with it effectively, assuming you weren't switched on enough to avoid potential trouble in the first place.

It's are you used to dealing with attackers on a psychological level?
Have you learned the prefight ritual? Can you distrupt the prefight ritual in such a way that the fight doesn't happen? Can you subtly communicate to your would be attacker(s) that attacking you is a really stupid idea while giving them a face saving way out?
Can you diffuse the situation? Can you use the prefight ritual to trigger an attack right when you want it? Can you show your opponent an "opening"

If you haven't got those basic survival skills you can study any art as hard as you like, it wont do you any good outside of the ring.
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Old 11-09-2008, 02:48 AM   #75
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

My experience reflects Kevin. About 10 years aikido training when I walked onto a bjj mat and got owned by people with less than a year. Once I started training with aliveness the aikido helped immensely I believe - and started to become functionalised.

I also disagree with the claim fighting skill can't be taught. Strongly disagree.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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