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Old 10-15-2008, 03:54 AM   #51
sorokod
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Re: Koshi Nage

Quote:
William Oakes wrote: View Post
...If you throw with a wide stance in most koshi nages applications, the likely hood of nage coming down on your knee/leg is much higher, that is a fact....
Are you suggesting the the correctness of the waza should be determined by popular vote?
Taking you argument to its logical conclusion, we also find that the safest thing is not to do koshi nage at all, probability 0 of dropping the uke on yourself.
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Old 10-15-2008, 08:07 AM   #52
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Re: Koshi Nage

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Are you suggesting the the correctness of the waza should be determined by popular vote?
Taking you argument to its logical conclusion, we also find that the safest thing is not to do koshi nage at all, probability 0 of dropping the uke on yourself.
That is a far fetched assumption. That is like saying maybe I should stop breathing so I dont use up the number of times my heart can beat in a lifetime.

I personally don't believe in right or wrong ways, just degrees of efficiency. If want to throw ukes on your legs by all means do so. Just dont throw me on your leg(s) and injury us both.

So please continue your journey. Aikido is better learned through actions and not words. Let your own actions be your guide. I'm just conveying what I' ve learned to the conversation. Do what you will with it.

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Old 10-15-2008, 08:32 AM   #53
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Re: Koshi Nage

Quote:
That is a far fetched assumption.
You were arguing your point based on the "likely hood" of getting hurt. So it is not an assumption.

Quote:
William Oakes wrote: View Post
I personally don't believe in right or wrong ways, just degrees of efficiency.
What is it about Aikido that ecourages statements like this? Let's try it on brain surgery: "I personally don't believe in right or wrong ways of doing brain surgery, just degrees of efficiency." Hmmm..

Quote:
William Oakes wrote: View Post
So please continue your journey. Aikido is better learned through actions and not words. Let your own actions be your guide. I'm just conveying what I' ve learned to the conversation. Do what you will with it.
I agree, it can be learned only through actions not at all through words. However it can be ulearned through words.
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:32 AM   #54
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Re: Koshi Nage

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
You were arguing your point based on the "likely hood" of getting hurt. So it is not an assumption.

What is it about Aikido that ecourages statements like this? Let's try it on brain surgery: "I personally don't believe in right or wrong ways of doing brain surgery, just degrees of efficiency." Hmmm..

I agree, it can be learned only through actions not at all through words. However it can be ulearned through words.
I was basing my point of experience and what I 've been taught. I am not assuming just relaying experience.

Because there are no absolutes. The way I do something may or may not work for you. There are just degrees of efficiency. Just like teacher x says do this , teacher y says dont do that. Learn what you can from both and make your own decision as to what works for you. That is about as simple as I can make that. If you want absolutes, here are the only two that I know of, you were born and you are going to die. I hope that frames things for you. But if you need to be told what is right and what is wrong well go ahead and be a sheep and follow the herd. I prefer to make my own mind up after experiencing 1 st hand and going to the source. So go ahead and be a sheep but dont cry when the wolves prey on you.

Last edited by SmilingNage : 10-15-2008 at 09:39 AM. Reason: more to say

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Old 10-15-2008, 12:13 PM   #55
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Re: Koshi Nage

Quote:
William Oakes wrote: View Post
... But if you need to be told what is right and what is wrong well go ahead and be a sheep and follow the herd. I prefer to make my own mind up after experiencing 1 st hand and going to the source. So go ahead and be a sheep but dont cry when the wolves prey on you.
Ahh, my nemesis, the poetic language! As always I have difficulties with it.
Let's see, I am a sheep because I take the form seriously. In this, presumably I am with the others in the Shu of Shu Ha Ri. That was easy!

But what about "going to the source"? What can that mean? And the "wolves" that will "prey" on me, who are they?
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Old 10-15-2008, 12:42 PM   #56
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

David,

You clearly seem convinced koshi nage should be done with feet apart, and you've related this to the multiple attacker situation.

Fair enough.

Other people have brought up concern for the safety of nage, specifically including the possibility of uke landing on nage's leg or knee.

From over here, it seems when these issues are raised, the discussion gets off-track.

So, if you'd be so kind, may I ask you to indulge these questions:

Other than the utility or necessity, in your view, of performing the technique with feet apart in multiple attacker situations, do other bases exist for your opinion on the proper way to execute this technique? If so, what are they?

Do you disagree that the safety concern articulated is valid?

In performing this technique the way you believe it should be performed, has such a problem either occurred or come close to occurring?

Do you cope with the possibility of uke falling on nage in some fashion when executing the technique with feet apart?

Do you have opinions as firm as this about other waza, or is your opinion about koshi nage unusual?

Regards,

DH
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Old 10-15-2008, 02:40 PM   #57
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Other than the utility or necessity, in your view, of performing the technique with feet apart in multiple attacker situations, do other bases exist for your opinion on the proper way to execute this technique? If so, what are they?
Yes. It serves as a basis for kokyu nage. Same movement, but removing the hips. You can see where's uke going to land. You can throw uke further. Etc.

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Do you disagree that the safety concern articulated is valid?
I do. Please, reffer to the now very famous and repetitive swinging motion.

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
In performing this technique the way you believe it should be performed, has such a problem either occurred or come close to occurring?
Never. And by performing it with heels together... did you ever lose balance and felt with uke to the mat? Not a very solid stance, it is.

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Do you cope with the possibility of uke falling on nage in some fashion when executing the technique with feet apart?
No. Because uke's not lifted.

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Do you have opinions as firm as this about other waza, or is your opinion about koshi nage unusual?
Normally open minded about waza. We are just saying that there's nothing wrong about doing it with feet apart: uke will not fall over you; you don't need to lift uke with your knees, but to unbalance him forward (and up); you can (or not, depends on generic you) deal with multiple attackers; you can disengage more easily...

Nothing wrong with heels together. I just find it more JU than AIKI. IMHO.

Best.
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Old 10-15-2008, 03:20 PM   #58
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

I don't get it at all: how the hell the wide stance can help you face multiple attackers? Just see boxers - they have ONE opponent who changes fast directions and distance - and still they have very narrow stance.
Feet apart = stiff, rigid posture, impossible to develop like that great mobility.

Feet apart are used only to teach beginners. Beginners learn this way how to preserve their balance. But there is no high level martial artist in the world(no only aikido masters), that use it, all of them have very natural position with feet almost together. And these feet are constantly moving, changing their position, to harmonize with attacker.This is also very true in case of koshinage - wide rigid stance will never allow to do it.

Only such natural posture can help to face multiple attackers.

Nagababa

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Old 10-15-2008, 03:30 PM   #59
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

I would say get some experience with a deshi of O'sensei, or one of the deshi's deshi. That would be the best source

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Old 10-15-2008, 03:31 PM   #60
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Alejandro,

Thanks for your response.

It's helpful in moving things forward, and though I did understand some of the points you are making from your own earlier posts, I'm glad you summarized them here.

To answer your question to me -- yes, feet close together does sometimes feel awkward.

By the way, my last question in particular was not addressed at you, though I appreciate your position. I don't know David shares your view, at least as to this technique.

I think I'll go back to lurking now; the question on the floor from Szczepan needs addressing....

Regards,

DH
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Old 10-15-2008, 03:34 PM   #61
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
William Oakes wrote: View Post
I would say get some experience with a deshi of O'sensei, or one of the deshi's deshi. That would be the best source
O'Sensei -> Saito Morihiro -> Daniel Toutain: I guess this a very valid source. Not that I traing with him everyday, just during his seminars in Spain.
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Old 10-15-2008, 03:37 PM   #62
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
By the way, my last question in particular was not addressed at you, though I appreciate your position. I don't know David shares your view, at least as to this technique.
Thank you David. I know it was not addressed to me, but was a good place to summarize my view .
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Old 10-15-2008, 04:11 PM   #63
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Feet apart are used only to teach beginners. Beginners learn this way how to preserve their balance. But there is no high level martial artist in the world(no only aikido masters), that use it, all of them have very natural position with feet almost together.
Chida Sensei, Yoshinkan 8th dan, direct student of Shioda Gozo:



Philippe Voarino, 6th dan from Iwama Ryu:



You can find this throw in Yoshinkan, Yoseikan, Iwama Ryu... (just to keep into the Aikido paradigm; if we talk Nihon Jujutsu think of Asayama Ichiden Ryu, for example).



Not to speak about Saito, Shioda, Mochizuki, O'Sensei, etc... All did Koshi Nage with feet apart. I don't believe they are only beginners, Szczepan...
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Old 10-15-2008, 04:48 PM   #64
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
By the way, my last question in particular was not addressed at you, though I appreciate your position. I don't know David shares your view, at least as to this technique.
DH
What Alejandro said, plus the following.

All these are quotes from this thread:

Quote:
"don't believe in right or wrong ways, just degrees of efficiency"
"The usual recommendation that I've seen in my little circle of friends"
"one of those technical details that offers endless debate and minimal significance."
" I can think of about 5 distinctly different ways to accomplish that task"
"I've also seen waves form and break in many shapes and sizes. They were all waves."
O Sensei developed his art over 60 years of intensive training, the techniques (core techniques including koshi nage) are based on his experience, more precisely the techniques are his distilled experience. When people modify a technique claiming their own "understanding", I wander how it compares to Founder's (being extra polite here ).

Oh, and also this: there is a right way and there is a wrong way to do things, and while its true that there may be more then one right way, that does not mean that every way is OK.

Last edited by sorokod : 10-15-2008 at 05:01 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 10-15-2008, 05:00 PM   #65
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

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Old 10-15-2008, 09:41 PM   #66
C. David Henderson
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

David,

Thanks for amplifying your own views. I tend to think, though, taking isolated statements from other's posts doesn't really help you establish your point; rather, quite honestly, it tends to establish why you reacted to particular posts the way you did.

I'm not convinced, FWIW, that any of the people you quote intended to suggest that any way of doing a technique is okay.

I recall you asking for princiles on which to evaluate koshi nage; do you have principles in mind to distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable variations of techinque? Just asking.

In any event, thanks.

DH
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:42 PM   #67
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

WWMD?


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Old 10-15-2008, 10:45 PM   #68
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Personally I end up doing most of my koshi's with my feet at about shoulder width or slightly less. After throwing a 280 lb guy once (I'm about 195) with my legs apart, forgetting to move my legs in (because I remember wondering how I was going to manage this....) and him hitting the outside of my knee.....I have learned to either shift my weight or legs.

Argue all you want about proper position.....You can obviously learn to do it any number of ways.....I now do lots of weight training to keep from getting my torn meniscus reparied. Potential for injury is enough for me to do it with a fairly narrow stance.
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Old 10-16-2008, 04:40 AM   #69
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Hello David H
Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
...I'm not convinced, FWIW, that any of the people you quote intended to suggest that any way of doing a technique is okay.
I take those posts at face value. That is why I have so much trouble with similes and metaphors.

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
I recall you asking for princiles on which to evaluate koshi nage; do you have principles in mind to distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable variations of techinque?
I was asking for those because the previous poster was hinting at some knowledge of them and not because I have them.
A list of universal principles that can be used to identify a flaw in a waza would be great, but I am not optimistic about defining it any time soon (Hanmi as a principle should probably be on that list).

So what remains is the form, it is not ideal, but this is all there is for now, the form is the principal and this is why respect to the form is important.
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Old 10-16-2008, 05:48 AM   #70
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

In my 'aikido life', I have been privileged to have been taught koshinage by at least six of O Sensei's direct deshi (M Saito, S Yamaguchi, H Tada, K Chiba, M Kanai, M Kitahira). So I think I am in a position to make some comparisons. Of these deshi, all except one placed their feet fairly close together, either in shizentai ('natural posture', with feet place about one foot apart) or in a T form (kusunoki: the base / stem of the T focused on uke--my own hips were never flexible enough to use the T form: I am aware that kusunoki also denotes the general position of tori's hips, in relation to uke's, but I think this is less important here). The exception was Morihito Saito, who always kept his feet apart--and always did koshi-nage successfully. So it might be that the position of the feet do not really matter: there are other factors that are far more crucial to successful koshi-waza.

There was never any loading of uke on the koshi and the set-up for the waza was exactly the same as for the vast array of waza known as kokyu-nage--the thinking being that if you can set up a kokyu-nage successfully, you can drop down and scoop uke over your hips, even with several variations of shiho-nage.

I think that there is never any question of loading uke on your hips. I also think that sumo offers a very good parallel here. Nobody could ever have beaten Konishiki (295 kilograms) by loading him to to the hips. Yet, the smallest and lightest wrestlers regularly beat him. Why? They understood how to use Konishiki's own weight to their advantage, which is the same principle for koshi-nage. If this is understood, the position of the feet are important only in order to take maximum advantage of uke's 'floating' predicament. If uke remains firmly anchored to the ground, then the waza becomes very difficult, if not impossible.

Best wishes to all,

PAG

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 10-16-2008 at 05:54 AM.

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Old 10-16-2008, 05:53 AM   #71
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

"Legacies of the Sword" by Friday and Humitake ( http://www.google.co.uk/search?q="Le...y+and+Humitake ) has a serious and useful set of principles of Kashima-Shinryu. So it is not impossible in principle.

Last edited by sorokod : 10-16-2008 at 05:54 AM. Reason: url fix
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Old 10-16-2008, 06:18 AM   #72
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
In my 'aikido life', I have been privileged to have been taught koshinage by at least six of O Sensei's direct deshi (M Saito, S Yamaguchi, H Tada, K Chiba, M Kanai, M Kitahira). So I think I am in a position to make some comparisons. Of these deshi, all except one placed their feet fairly close together, either in shizentai ('natural posture', with feet place about one foot apart) or in a T form (kusunoki: the base / stem of the T focused on uke--my own hips were never flexible enough to use the T form: I am aware that kusunoki also denotes the general position of tori's hips, in relation to uke's, but I think this is less important here). The exception was Morihito Saito, who always kept his feet apart--and always did koshi-nage successfully. So it might be that the position of the feet do not really matter: there are other factors that are far more crucial to successful koshi-waza.
You mentioned postwar students. Maybe this is more of a modern approach influenced by Judo? Saito being the exception in that he lived and trained daily with O'Sensei in Iwama. Prewar students seem to agree in feet apart, or is it just my perception? Daito Ryu's koshi nage is done with feet apart or with heels together?

Thanks,
Alex.
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Old 10-16-2008, 06:53 AM   #73
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
You mentioned postwar students. Maybe this is more of a modern approach influenced by Judo? Saito being the exception in that he lived and trained daily with O'Sensei in Iwama. Prewar students seem to agree in feet apart, or is it just my perception? Daito Ryu's koshi nage is done with feet apart or with heels together?

Thanks,
Alex.
What are your grounds for making such a distinction between 'postwar students' and Saito? Morihiro Saito was also postwar, in the sense that he was after the watershed of 1942. So your distinction, if it is valid, has to be made on other grounds. An argument based on 'living and training daily with O Sensei' has little validity unless you can actually show that this fact of daily postwar training had a striking effect on Saito's koshi-nage (sufficient to differentiate Saito from the other students like, e.g. Tamura, Tanaka Shigeho, and Yamaguchi). I think that there are too many variables to make a valid distinction IN AIKIDO.

Best wishes,

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Old 10-16-2008, 07:08 AM   #74
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
What are your grounds for making such a distinction between 'postwar students' and Saito? Morihiro Saito was also postwar, in the sense that he was after the watershed of 1942. So your distinction, if it is valid, has to be made on other grounds. An argument based on 'living and training daily with O Sensei' has little validity unless you can actually show that this fact of daily postwar training had a striking effect on Saito's koshi-nage (sufficient to differentiate Saito from the other students like, e.g. Tamura, Tanaka Shigeho, and Yamaguchi). I think that there are too many variables to make a valid distinction IN AIKIDO.
My grounds are ones well know to the community. That postwar students have mainly trained in Kisshomaru's and Tohei's ways of doing things, since O'Sensei was retired in Iwama and not teaching at Hombu Dojo. So Saito's way has to be closer to that of O'Sensei by all means. And that Saito's way has more to do with prewar styles than with postwar ones, as far as I see it. Saito's, Shirata's and Shioda's styles are more similar than any two postwar "lines" that you may pick, in my opinion. Not that I have the absolute truth (whatever that means).

Best.
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:45 AM   #75
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
My grounds are ones well know to the community. That postwar students have mainly trained in Kisshomaru's and Tohei's ways of doing things, since O'Sensei was retired in Iwama and not teaching at Hombu Dojo. So Saito's way has to be closer to that of O'Sensei by all means. And that Saito's way has more to do with prewar styles than with postwar ones, as far as I see it. Saito's, Shirata's and Shioda's styles are more similar than any two postwar "lines" that you may pick, in my opinion. Not that I have the absolute truth (whatever that means).

Best.
Well, I think that we will have to agree to disagree. My columns are designed to show that the grounds "well known to the aikido community" rest on far less secure foundations than previously supposed. I mentioned people, not lines, and I believe that your distinction between prewar and postwar is far too simple to bear any weight.

Best wishes,

PAG

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