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Old 07-17-2000, 01:48 AM   #1
orenb
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Hi all,
I was wondering.. if you attempt a Kotegaishi on an uke that has locked his wrist, is there a way to loosen his wrist and still use this technique?

Thanx
Oren

Oren
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Old 07-17-2000, 01:55 AM   #2
akiy
 
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Sure. Break his or her balance rather than worrying about breaking his or her wrist...

-- Jun

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Old 07-17-2000, 03:08 AM   #3
adriangan
 
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deliver atemi

If you delivered an atemi to distract your uke, would that help in loosening his locked wrist?

-adrian
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Old 07-17-2000, 08:31 AM   #4
George S. Ledyard
 
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Kotegaeshi

Quote:
orenb wrote:
Hi all,
I was wondering.. if you attempt a Kotegaishi on an uke that has locked his wrist, is there a way to loosen his wrist and still use this technique?

Thanx
Oren
The purpose of atemi is to shift the focus of the attacker's energy away from the place at which you are applying your technique. Saotome Sensei has always said that if your partner knew that you wouldn't strike him, all techniques are stoppable. If you were really fighting the atemi would have been delivered before you attempted the lock. In fact in combat the technique would have been created by the atemi! In normal kihon waza (basic technique) the atemi would come in the instant that the uke began to tighten up to be resistant.

What is important to remember is that it doesn't matter if the uke stops your lock. In the martial arena the arms have two functions. First is to deliver offensive technique to the opponent. Just as important is the second function which is to defend against the offensive moves of that opponent. In order for there to be effective defense there absolutely must be freedom of movement and speed in the defense. The instant that someone tightens up to stop a technique they are no longer capable of using that limb to defend against the strike. By shifting into the available atemi the opponent is forced to go back to a flexible state in order to protect himself. At that point the possibility of a locking technique exists once again.

This is why it is a mistake to ever stop a technique. Inside every technique is a strike that you are choosing not to do. The only safe response to a technique is a reversal. Anything short of a reversal is simply a setup for the strike that is implicit in the technique.

In my mind this is why Aikido people should make a study of atemi. Without atemi you will be forced to rely on the strength of your technique. Power will be the main issue in successful application of technique. But those who have experience in arts that rely on striking know that speed and power come from relaxation. Blows are thrown in combination with no single blow requiring too much commitment. If one approaches his hand technique in the same manner then locks and throws are simply part of larger combination that includes the atemi.

The Philippine art of Kali has pretty much the same locking techniques that we do. Dan Inosanto, who is certified in about 25 different styles of Kali, once told one of my friend that he didn't like to teach the weapons strips and disarms too early in someone's training because as soon as you did they started trying to do them. His point was that the disarms and stripping techniques are an integral part of the striking pattern. This will be true of locking techniques as well. If you are trying for a lock you will be countered. If you strike the attacker's center HIS TECHNIQUE WILL PRESENT THE LOCK as he defends against the strike. These are two different things and the distinction is what separates practice technique from real martial application.

It is my opinion that there is entirely too much emphasis on grabbing the uke in most Aikido. If you have ever trained with someone who has studied Kali, Silat, Jeet Kun Do, or Wing Chun, all of which have locking and trapping techniques as an integral part of their arts, you will know that these people are experts at stripping a trap. They look at the typical manner that Aikido people execute their techniques with disbelief. They know that the instant they were grabbed in that manner they would have stripped the grab and delivered a counter strike. I think that any Aikidoka really interested in the martial application of Aikido technique should make a study of one of these arts so he can understand what a skilled attacker can really do.

This is why weapons work is so important in Aikido. We don't have much in the way of striking technique, especially combination technique. But we do have a large body of weapons work that points out the real nature of technique as consisting of striking the uke's openings. This doesn't require great physical power. It requires looseness and speed, freedom to move in any direction as the situation demands. This precisely what successful locking and throwing technique requires.


[Edited by George S. Ledyard on July 17, 2000 at 08:37am]

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Old 07-17-2000, 02:25 PM   #5
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I teach in a crosstraining dojo. I get quite a few of the jiu-jitsu people checking out class and they are constantly trying to stop my technique. ( I find this wonderful for realisms sake). Three ways I have combined to "enhance" kotegaeshi is 1)As Jun said break uke's balance. 2) As in all wrist techniques strive to control uke's entire body, i.e. When entering with tenkan against a strike keep uke's wrist at roughly belt level, then when you step backwards it's almost as if you threw him with sumi-otoshi. 3) In the case of an extremely unwilling uke, a little chi-na never hurts. If their hand is in a fist take your hand that circles over uke's fingers and press with your index finger on one of their finger nails. And as always keep weight underside and extend your energy.

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Old 07-17-2000, 03:25 PM   #6
akiy
 
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If someone "stops" a technique, they're going to be open to something else like an atemi (as George eloquently explained above) or another technique. This is one of the reasons why I think that jiyuwaza/randori is an important part of everyone's training both as nage and uke.

-- Jun

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Old 07-17-2000, 04:56 PM   #7
AikiTom
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Lightbulb

What an excellent thread so far!! George's post is enough for a nice magazine article by itself!

Not much I could add, other than to share a story. I've practice kotegaeshi with tae kwon do people, and one I was working with had a lot of tension in his arms and wrist. I always try to finish a technique, so the next time I applied atemi to the face which worked (once). He was pretty firmly rooted the next couple times, so I finally feinted a front snap kick to the groin - he screamed, bent forward very fast, totally relaxing his wrist and then went down with kotegaeshi real nice. Not elegant, I admit, but it worked.
The inward squeeze of the finger in a fist described works real well, too.

May the force be with you!
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Old 07-17-2000, 10:29 PM   #8
Chocolateuke
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I just learned where all the hits go really nasty. and for kotoegashi I like the nice open hand torward the face and then apllie the throw it works like a charm and if you do it at the same time you feel like you just snaped your fingers and made the uke fall!! Coool!
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Old 07-20-2000, 02:59 PM   #9
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A thought provoking bit of information using a kotegaeshi response to a mune tsuki. There are are a number of pressure points located on the forearm ,wrist, and hand. The series on the top inside of the forearm/wrist/hand releases the fist; the point used in this technique is midway between the elbow and wrist. As Nage's leading 'sword hand' makes contact with uke's out-thrust forearm this pressure point is hit. Nage's hand then slides down over the wrist/hand, with the thumb placed just below uke's ring finger. The series of pressure points on the bottom forearm/wrist/hand releases the wrist; the point used in this technique is located in the "V" formed by the bones between the little finger and the ring finger(It is most painful when activated with the tip of nage's thumb).
Of course, Nage could continue to hold this point as the technique is completed(with a standing pin, for example). Upon further investigation you may discover more ["hidden"] Atemi in AIKIDO techniques than you were aware of. Hmmm... (I highly recommend George Dillman's seminars/media)
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Old 08-13-2000, 12:23 AM   #10
zen711
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dont know if anyones still reading this thread. just wanted to say that what i have been taught is that in reality the wrist turn is actually the least important past of the kotegaeshi technique abnd that it is more important to make sure that you have control of the persons body by using the amr/hand/ whatever to guide their energy down and break the balance. the wrist is used as soemwhat of a safety guard in the end. but if you really need to get that done and someone clenches their fist, match your hand not with the closed fingers, but actually a little below that on the hand so that you are actuaklly pushing on the kuckles, push them forward correctly and the clenched hand will actually open up since, if done right, the pain will be quite hard to avoid
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Old 08-13-2000, 09:59 AM   #11
akira
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What my sensei says

My teacher says that it's not acually the bending and twisting of the persons wrist that gets them down but the cercular movment of the whole body and the slight squat at the end thats so powerfull, so it's your whole body working with this person little wrist... plus aikido is a very pure form of martial arts and without an attack there's NO technique. And yes the "Pie to the face", opened hand not a clenched fist (that stops the flow of ki) helps too.
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Old 08-13-2000, 10:01 AM   #12
Axiom
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I've actually seen what could be considered a variant of kotegaishi that doesn't even require you to keep your thumb in between their last two knuckles...its sort of hard to explain, and I've only learned it from Ikkyo...imagine you've got someone's arm in ikkyo, but you can't go any furher. So what you do is put the arm that is supporting their elbow over uke's arm, then under to grasp your own wrist. Keep this tight, and twist towards uke. This should, if done correctly, result in a kotegaeshi that doesn't actually require their hand to be in any special position, since it is entirely based on their wrist and elbow. The turnover is a little tricky on this one, but its a nice technique. I think it could be used against a low punch omote, if I were smart enough to figure it out.



If I don't make sense, maybe one of the other posters here can describe it better.

Alex Magidow

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Old 08-13-2000, 05:02 PM   #13
akiy
 
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Quote:
Axiom wrote:
imagine you've got someone's arm in ikkyo, but you can't go any furher. So what you do is put the arm that is supporting their elbow over uke's arm, then under to grasp your own wrist. Keep this tight, and twist towards uke.
We call this juji garame nage at our dojo and sometimes practice it (as you said) as a "failed" ikkyo.

-- Jun

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Old 08-14-2000, 09:22 AM   #14
Nick P.
 
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Thumbs down

Quote:
zen711 wrote:
...i have been taught is that in reality the wrist turn is actually the least important past of the kotegaeshi technique abnd that it is more important to make sure that you have control of the persons body by using the amr/hand/ whatever to guide their energy down and break the balance...
Well said zen711
Use your Center to control their Center; Keep that in mind and they can be holding a chainsaw for all you care.

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Old 08-14-2000, 11:05 AM   #15
Yo-Jimbo
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Cool

one thing that teaches the "hip-turn-and-settle" is to move the outside (lateral) hand down with the pinky finger in the crook of their elbow. turn and lower the whole body with this hold. like atemi, this moves interest and attention away from the stiff wrist, but can be a very quick change from the basic technique. forearm "katate" gaeshi is very similar in all respects to kote gaeshi. in jiyu waza, relax and find whatever is there. use your own judgement.

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Old 09-30-2004, 03:25 PM   #16
MitchMZ
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

I try not to think in terms of getting the wrist perfectly every time when I have to apply kotegaeshi quickly. Take for instance a beginner who would not let go of my wrist, I just performed the technique with his hand on my wrist and it actually worked better than me grabbing him because he was so tense. IMO, the type of movement you encounter with kotegaeshi can be used in a large number of ways.
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Old 09-30-2004, 03:59 PM   #17
MaryKaye
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

We don't teach kotagaeshi, but a similar throw, koteoroshi, which is more straight up and down (it's thought to be safer for the wrist, I believe). Koteoroshi is my favorite throw to try to resist, because I feel like I have a handle on how much pain nage is going to cause me. In doing this we've found two things that help:

As several people have said, a lot of these throws work on unbalancing, and will still work even if nothing happens to uke's wrist. For munetsuki koteoroshi I hadve had the best results keeping my hands close to my center and stepping back slightly from uke so that he's stretched out. If you get into this position, the wrist lock is just icing; uke is already going down.

When you do need to move uke via his wrist and not just by unbalancing during the set-up, it helps to think of moving *your* body downward through uke's wrist, not moving uke's wrist. That is, get your hands in position and then instead of pushing down with your arm strength, keep your arms firm but relaxed and drop your whole body downwards. This is mysteriously hard to resist.

Mary Kaye
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Old 10-01-2004, 08:22 AM   #18
Shipley
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

I think that I'm going to print out George's reply and require my students to read it weekly.

Thanks George,

Paul
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Old 10-01-2004, 10:42 AM   #19
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Quote:
Mary Kuhner wrote:
We don't teach kotagaeshi, but a similar throw, koteoroshi, which is more straight up and down (it's thought to be safer for the wrist, I believe)....Mary Kaye
Kote-oroshi was developed from kote-gaeshi. Kote-gaeshi was eliminated from the Ki Society curriculum since it was discovered students were concentrating on the wrist turning motion. There are people who have either strong wrists that you can't turn or others who have extremely flexible wrists who you can turn all the way over.

In both kote-oroshi and kote-gaeshi the important thing is to lead the uke around and then down. If you lead from the fingers then you turn them down before throwing (kote-gaeshi - wrist turning). If you lead from the wrist, you can just drop it (kote-oroshi - wrist drop) at the end of the technique. To my simple way of thinking a kote-oroshi is just a kote-gaeshi done right.

In the Ki Society kote-oroshi is practiced without atemi. However, atemi can be used in both kote-oroshi/kote-gaeshi.

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Old 10-01-2004, 11:32 AM   #20
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
To my simple way of thinking a kote-oroshi is just a kote-gaeshi done right.

In the Ki Society kote-oroshi is practiced without atemi. However, atemi can be used in both kote-oroshi/kote-gaeshi.

My experience is that we were doing kote-oroshi long before the name change from kote-gaeshi. I was told at the time that the name change was simply to more accurately reflect what we were already doing. That in Japan new students were hearing the description 'kote-gaeshi' and tending to get the wrong idea. For non-native speakers it just is a label change. Nothing changed in how the technique was being taught.

The need for atemi with a resistant uke seems to me a question of how you are moving in relation to uke and whether you have allowed slack to develop. Ideally, if kote-oroshi is done successfully, no slack develops, uke's balance is compromised, and the need for atemi does not arise. If your technique allows slack and/or exposes you to a strike/grabbing range of your opponent then serious atemi is needed as a distraction.

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Old 10-01-2004, 02:15 PM   #21
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
My experience is that we were doing kote-oroshi long before the name change from kote-gaeshi.
You are making assumptions that may or may not apply. Yes - you probably were doing kote-oroshi before the name change. That does not mean everyone else was, or is doing kote-gaeshi in the same manner.

A good example is what you mentioned later.
Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
...Ideally, if kote-oroshi is done successfully, no slack develops, uke's balance is compromised, and the need for atemi does not arise...
What do you mean by slack? Of course I know what you're writing about since we both study the same style. But an average Aikikai student wouldn't. Since Aikikai is not a style but an organization, there are serious differences in the technical way techniques are executed.

What I'm really pointing out is the different experience between Shin Shin Toitsu Do and Aikikai Aikido. Trying to find a common ground and expressing that understanding seems insurmountable at times.

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Old 10-01-2004, 02:45 PM   #22
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
What do you mean by slack? Of course I know what you're writing about since we both study the same style. But an average Aikikai student wouldn't.
Is there an esoteric definition of "slack" that you use? I read what Craig wrote and (I believe) I understood him and his use of the term "slack". I could be wrong, of course.
Quote:
What I'm really pointing out is the different experience between Shin Shin Toitsu Do and Aikikai Aikido. Trying to find a common ground and expressing that understanding seems insurmountable at times.
The times I have trained with folks like Kashiwaya sensei or the late Simcox sensei, I was able to get a lot out of what they were saying. I don't think I would have gotten such had I not been on at least some common ground...

-- Jun

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Old 10-01-2004, 03:01 PM   #23
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Jun, there are many of us (even the "average") out in the "aiki wastelands" that know what slack is...

;-))

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Old 10-01-2004, 03:28 PM   #24
Janet Rosen
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Yeah, even pre-aikido I would have had no problem understanding the concept of "slack" -- as would anybody who has ever played tug or war or tried to haul something!
Also want to say my experience is similar to Mary Kaye: kind of getting heavy/relaxed on uke's wrist or on top of uke's forearm (the exact place of the hand grip less than critical), connecting it to my center, dropping and turning my center is much of my focus with this technique.

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Old 10-01-2004, 04:13 PM   #25
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote:
Jun, there are many of us (even the "average") out in the "aiki wastelands" that know what slack is...

;-))

Yes, I didn't think the term 'slack' was that hard to understand.

Kashiwaya Sensei's simple demonstation of it is to take a towel hold it between boh his hands. Brings his hands close, the towel droops down,
that's slack. Pulls his hands apart hard so the towel is stretched taut, this is not slack but there is also tension. Relaxes his hands enough so the towel is not stretched but does not droop, this is no slack without being tense.

Now knowing that and seeing it is one thing. It's a challenge to maintain that feeling while performing technique.

best,

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