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Old 10-07-2008, 11:47 AM   #51
DonMagee
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Quote:
Lyle Bogin wrote: View Post
Breakfalls often are painful, even if they are totally correct. There is only so much force that can be dissipated through increasing the area of the body that its the mat.

The breakfall is the "high spinning kick" of aikido. Sexy. Youthful. It lets other people know you are the master! It can save your life!

Really I think that you only need them for techniques where both arms need to be tied up for the throw, and things like koshinage

And to deal with macho bullshit.
I can't say I've taken a painful breakfall in the last year or so. I have been sloppy and gotten the wind knocked out of me or had poor form and banged up my knees on each other. But I can't recall a proper break fall I've taken that has hurt.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:21 PM   #52
mwible
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

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Enrique Antonio Reyes wrote: View Post
I've heard of a lot of people getting injured during break falls. Unlike in judo where they spar and make each other fall I'm not sure if it is really necessary to use break falls in Aikido training. I mean it's not like a real attacker outside of the gym would fall that way. (or would they?)

So are break falls really necessary in Aikido training? What do you think?
If it weren't for breakfalls, and properly knowing how to fall; every Aikido class, i would come out with bruises on my kidneys, a very sore back, and probably ATLEAST a mild concussion.

So, yes. Breakfall's are very necessary in the training of Aikido.

"When you bow deeply to the universe, it bows back; when you call out the name of God, it echoes inside you." - O' sensei
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:23 PM   #53
mwible
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I can't say I've taken a painful breakfall in the last year or so. I have been sloppy and gotten the wind knocked out of me or had poor form and banged up my knees on each other. But I can't recall a proper break fall I've taken that has hurt.
He was probably refering to executing a Sutemi, or "Sacrifice fall". Which i find to be mildly painful just about every time i execute one.

But, ordinary breakfalls, noooo, definitly not painful.

-morgan

"When you bow deeply to the universe, it bows back; when you call out the name of God, it echoes inside you." - O' sensei
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:22 AM   #54
Mato-san
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
I can't say I've taken a painful breakfall in the last year or so. I have been sloppy and gotten the wind knocked out of me or had poor form and banged up my knees on each other. But I can't recall a proper break fall I've taken that has hurt.
Well said Don, I have had more pain from taking Mae Ukemi... when the technique is done with speed (no macho shi#t at all) sometimes the breakfall is softer although it looks harder. Some techniques you just can't roll out of, even if the Nage releases early. SO YES breakfalls should be learnt, but learn them safely and execute them gracefully. NO PAIN

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 10-27-2008, 11:34 AM   #55
Peter Bowyer
 
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

To answer that you have to know 'why' we breakfall. The option of breakfalling or simply rolling is most dependant on the speed and precision in which the technique is being executed. Sometimes a roll just won't cut it.

Put yourself in this situation: you're being mugged and you then perform Aikido to get away but the mugger also has some skills. If they are skilled enough and perform a technique on you would you want to be slammed against the ground or would you rather take the fall easier and control yourself?

Sure, one can get injured practicing breakfalls, but that can happen in anything in life. You can injure yourself knitting! The idea is to teach and customize your body to adapt to any situation...and needing to breakfall my be required.

When you bow deeply to the Universe, it bows back. - Morihei Ueshiba
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Old 10-27-2008, 12:25 PM   #56
Aikibu
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Nope...

I don't see them as a requirement at all. Break-falling is a good skill but one should be careful in their later years. I started break-falling in Judo over 30 years ago and no matter how good you are it takes it toll over time.

I don't want hip replacement surgery.

If you're going to feature break-falling in practice then make sure you build folks up to it. If they can't forward and backward roll with effortless grace then be careful with teaching them break-falls. I have seen too many "bone break-falls" in my day.

William Hazen
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Old 10-27-2008, 05:46 PM   #57
Voitokas
 
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Nope...

I don't see them as a requirement at all. Break-falling is a good skill but one should be careful in their later years. I started break-falling in Judo over 30 years ago and no matter how good you are it takes it toll over time.

I don't want hip replacement surgery.

If you're going to feature break-falling in practice then make sure you build folks up to it. If they can't forward and backward roll with effortless grace then be careful with teaching them break-falls. I have seen too many "bone break-falls" in my day.

William Hazen
So maybe necessary to learn how to do, but not necessary to make uke do.

That makes sense - breakfalls never hurt me now, but I hope to still be practising into my sixties and seventies, which is old enough for a broken bone to be a really big deal. I can't think of any techniques off the top of my head where you have to make uke take a breakfall.

On the other hand, if they are necessary to learn how to do (and I would say they are, even when they're not normally part of your practise - usually I end up taking breakfalls when working with overzealous beginners. ), then we have to practise them to get them right...
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Old 10-27-2008, 10:06 PM   #58
Aikibu
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Good points...

Usually when I visit another Dojo it seems that every technique ends in a breakfall. LOL

I guess it's cool to see a 6'2" 250 pound dude go BOOM!

William Hazen

I am hoping if I get to see Mark Murry and he teaches our class he'll go easy on my old bones.
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Old 10-27-2008, 10:22 PM   #59
Amadeus
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

There is alot of energy in gravity. Energy that can hurt you when you hit the ground. With tecnique you can harmonize with that energy and transform it to a positive force that won't hurt you, but instead get you back on your feet.

That is aikido.

Love me, hate me, tolerate me or ignore me. I care!
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Old 10-28-2008, 12:59 PM   #60
Daniel Blanco
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Yes I feel that a student should have the knoweldge of soft ukemi and hard(breakfalls) ukemi,because you never know if your partner is moving at a fast pace and to avoid injury a break fall is necessary,a student should start learning breakfalls at the 3rd kyu level and above.
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Old 10-29-2008, 08:27 AM   #61
Amir Krause
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

I think it depends on teacher and style.

I recall a friend who practiced Aikido in another place and claimed she can roll out of everything without breakfalling like in judo just rolling or using a very soft roll like breakfall.

She came to my Sensei dojo as part of some M.A. meeting we held. Already during the warm-up, she tried to demonstrate that breakfall while I threw her, not full force, and failed.

I believe it is a matter of two elements:

1. How close are you to 'Szczepan concept' of "Uke can not go wrong, and Tori is responsible for successful technique execution"?

* If Uke is responsible for the technique sucess, he can get out however he wishes to. If Tori is responsible for harmony, and really throws, Uke may find himself in many unpleasent situations unless he knows multiple ways of breakfalling and rolling.

2. Where is your throw directed ? some throw away, we throw just in front of out feet - unless there is reason (another attacker).
* Throwing away gives energy to the roll (I actually used it as a way of helping student roll). Throwing downwards requires a smaller roll unless Uke started very early (and that might be inrealistic if Tori is in control).

Amir
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Old 10-29-2008, 02:33 PM   #62
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Nice Post Amir. Good to read you again. That matches pretty closely to my thoughts.

Best,
Ron

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Old 10-29-2008, 02:46 PM   #63
ChrisMoses
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
I recall a friend who practiced Aikido in another place and claimed she can roll out of everything without breakfalling like in judo just rolling or using a very soft roll like breakfall.

She came to my Sensei dojo as part of some M.A. meeting we held. Already during the warm-up, she tried to demonstrate that breakfall while I threw her, not full force, and failed.
Ah, the "soft ukemi" phenomenon. I can't stand it. Only works in a very specific environment and you have to know how to take 'real' ukemi anyway in case you train with someone who actually knows how to throw with kuzushi. We had a guy train with us briefly who was training with another group that used the soft ukemi. He came in saying that you could use if for any throw in aikido. He never once found an opportunity to use it while studying with us.

Chris Moses
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Old 10-29-2008, 07:18 PM   #64
C. David Henderson
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Ouch?
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Old 10-29-2008, 09:11 PM   #65
DonMagee
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Ah, the "soft ukemi" phenomenon. I can't stand it. Only works in a very specific environment and you have to know how to take 'real' ukemi anyway in case you train with someone who actually knows how to throw with kuzushi. We had a guy train with us briefly who was training with another group that used the soft ukemi. He came in saying that you could use if for any throw in aikido. He never once found an opportunity to use it while studying with us.
You know, if it was possible to roll out of every technique, you could eventually (just by a law of averages and good cardio) win the fight. You attack, get thrown, roll out, get up, and attack until you eventually hurt your aiki target. This means I could further my secret goal of teaching everyone how to beat aikido attackers by giving free tumbling classes (just kidding :-))

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-30-2008, 03:02 AM   #66
Amir Krause
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Ah, the "soft ukemi" phenomenon. I can't stand it. Only works in a very specific environment and you have to know how to take 'real' ukemi anyway in case you train with someone who actually knows how to throw with kuzushi. We had a guy train with us briefly who was training with another group that used the soft ukemi. He came in saying that you could use if for any throw in aikido. He never once found an opportunity to use it while studying with us.
I am not against soft Ukemi. Our current mat is very thin and over concrete. It hardly absorbs the fall. Hence I prefer to soft Ukemi (avoid the slap) or roll. Soft Ukemi is martially preferble, you can continue fighting faster... But, it is not always possible.

An Aikido practitioner should have all the options, for him to choose from, on the spot during his ukemi. If you do not know to really breakfall, you might get into problem with some throws and people. If you do, you will likely remain rather safe within the dojo.

In fact, for me so far, breakfalls have proven to be the most effective real street S.D. technique learnt in Aikido. Since learning them, I saved myself multiple fractures from attacks by innate objects. At least some of the attacks included trapping a foot, so I could not roll and had to hard breakfall forward. The training resulted in my getting up with only a few sratches.

Amir
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:27 AM   #67
ChrisMoses
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
I am not against soft Ukemi. Our current mat is very thin and over concrete. It hardly absorbs the fall. Hence I prefer to soft Ukemi (avoid the slap) or roll. Soft Ukemi is martially preferble, you can continue fighting faster... But, it is not always possible.
Nothing wrong with quiet falls. Around here "Soft Ukemi" is almost a trademarked term for a very particular kind of ukemi, kind of similar to the Donovan Waite stuff.

Here's one example of what I'm talking about. Of particular concern to me is how long uke's head is pointed straight down at the ground during the fall.

Chris Moses
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Old 10-30-2008, 03:55 PM   #68
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Ah, the "soft ukemi" phenomenon. I can't stand it. Only works in a very specific environment and you have to know how to take 'real' ukemi anyway in case you train with someone who actually knows how to throw with kuzushi. We had a guy train with us briefly who was training with another group that used the soft ukemi. He came in saying that you could use if for any throw in aikido. He never once found an opportunity to use it while studying with us.
Wow,.... there are so many ways to say my aikido is better than yours....I thought I read somewhere on this site where Jun asked us not to do that...
I can take dependable ukemi when my balance is taken without taking a breakfall....
Mary
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Old 10-30-2008, 04:18 PM   #69
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Breakfalls may not always be necessary, but they are often fun.

Seeing yudansha get tossed across the room, roll gracefully, and come up with a grin on their faces was what set the aikido hook for me when I started training. I felt my whole body say, 'I want to be able to do that.'

Sometimes it stings a little bit, but more often it feels good to me. It feels like the impact of each foot when I run - the aligned whole-body 'omph' that makes me feel incredibly solid and totally real for just an instant. And it can be great for a stiff muscle in the shoulder.
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Old 10-30-2008, 05:41 PM   #70
James Edwards
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

There's a story that one of Chiba sensei's students did a backward roll into someone, broke his neck and died. From that point Chiba sensei started teaching his students to do backward breakfalls instead with the signature double slap. The breakfall is not directly to the back as well but more to the side.
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:10 AM   #71
ChrisMoses
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Wow,.... there are so many ways to say my aikido is better than yours....I thought I read somewhere on this site where Jun asked us not to do that...
I can take dependable ukemi when my balance is taken without taking a breakfall....
Mary
Actually, I'm not saying "mine's better" at all. I expressed a preference (against) and followed it up with real reasons why I have that *opinion* (safety and lack of usefulness in the way I train). I also specifically mentioned that it works in it's own environment. We do not project our throws or support uke, we throw straight down after breaking balance, this kind of ukemi simply doesn't work for that type of training. I do think this kind of ukemi builds a false confidence in what one is actually capable of falling from, an opinion echoed by several folks I know who actively study this kind of training.

Chris Moses
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:39 AM   #72
ChrisMoses
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Missed my edit window...

Mary, I also wanted to point out that I don't see any of the "Soft Ukemi™" in videos on your site. I too can take some very quiet falls but all of which I consider a subset of 'normal' ukemi. Soft Ukemi™ is not the same as quiet ukemi or non-breakfall ukemi, it's a very particular style of falling.

Chris Moses
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Old 10-31-2008, 01:55 PM   #73
Michael Douglas
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

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Amir Krause wrote: View Post
...In fact, for me so far, breakfalls have proven to be the most effective real street S.D. technique learnt in Aikido. Since learning them, I saved myself multiple fractures from attacks by innate objects. At least some of the attacks included trapping a foot, so I could not roll and had to hard breakfall forward. The training resulted in my getting up with only a few sratches.
I'll second that!
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Old 10-31-2008, 06:24 PM   #74
Douglas Fajardo
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

of course is necessary to learn how to fall ´cause that is your defend againts your enemy´s tecnique
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Old 11-04-2008, 02:19 AM   #75
Amir Krause
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Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Nothing wrong with quiet falls. Around here "Soft Ukemi" is almost a trademarked term for a very particular kind of ukemi, kind of similar to the Donovan Waite stuff.

Here's one example of what I'm talking about. Of particular concern to me is how long uke's head is pointed straight down at the ground during the fall.
Oops

Did not know the "Soft Ukemi™" first sight of those.
So I would rather refrain from giving an opinion until I see someone trying them here.
The Ukemi style attempted in my story seemed different.

Amir
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