Are breakfalls really necessary?

Dan Harden wrote: Maybe the OP's question is more to the point than the follow-ups. Why is it that under full resistance-breakfalls aren't usually needed?

Full reistance.................hmmm. You mean as in Judo, for example?

The difference between the two arts from a ukemi point of view is Judo's emphasis on not being thrown and thus loosing the match, even at the risk of injury.
In Aikido ukemi is for preventing injury at all costs by escaping the technique if possible, but if not, breakfalling in the hope that after landing you can continue to fight.
The reason it's not deemed to be needed is because Aikido is a "discreditied" art within sporting circles where "full resistance" is common.
I've watched fights in the UFC where fighters have been dumped on their back and submitted/grounded and pounded where an Aikidoka would have floated around the technique and probably escaped.

Dan Harden wrote: You also "forgot" my point. Usually they.....haven't let go of you either! Hence the furtherance of my point that the dynamic changes. I'd add to that the way the body falls when being thrown from active resistance is different as well.

Well I've tried not teaching falling to new judo students, and they didn't last very long. Breakfalls are important for training in judo. Sure the odd hard throw on a mat won't kill you (once you have trained your body to get used to it), but try taking 200 big throws in a short period without any breakfalls. I still see guys who don't take the breakfalls seriously getting the wind knocked out of them and hitting their head on the floor.

But you are correct, in actual sparing or competition, the falls are less important. But if you do not drill them you will not have trained the body to exhale and tuck the chin. Those are really the two things that let you keep fighting after getting a big hard fall.

If falling skills were not important, then I would expect to see more wrestlers who show up for judo to fair better in the throw line/sparing when being thrown.

Are breakfalls necessary? Sometimes they are. I have seen people take breakfalls when it was not necessary to do show. That kind of thing is just showboating. But when training very hard, it may be necessary to take a breakfall when you are thrown very hard, suddenly taken off of your feet, or held when you are use to being let go. I don't think it's something that should be done very often, but I do believe it is something that should be worked on. I only do them when necessary.

Not only can good falling techniques help you avoid injury when you take an accidental fall outside of the dojo, what happens when you are attacked on the street by somebody who knows Aikido, and is good at it, and gives you a full speed kotegaeshi?
I've said it before, I will say it again: The assumption that only honest people have access to martial art training and the ability to excel in them is naive.

Breakfalls are nothing more than rolling in the air above the mat. It is an extension of rolling on the mat. If you cant roll, then you shouldnt breakfall. It is an advance understanding of ukemi and technique. With that being said should you learn it, of course. Is it necessary, not really. You can get by with forward and back roll and the side ukemi(which is nothing more than a break fall that doesnt get launched into the air.)

Carsten Möllering wrote: Check out the third one: Kote gaeshi or kokyu nage? The first one is different, but there is no difference in bending the wrist between the second (ushiro ukemi) and the third version (mae ukemi). It isn't causing pain this way anywa. What throws uke in the third version is the different kuzushi. And it isn't possible to do ushiro ukemi in that situation.

Three diferents variations on the same theme. Well put together. However, in the video, it looks like he's working the wrist... Have to feel it, but I'll take your word for it.

William Oakes wrote: Breakfalls are nothing more than rolling in the air above the mat. It is an extension of rolling on the mat. If you cant roll, then you shouldnt breakfall. It is an advance understanding of ukemi and technique. With that being said should you learn it, of course. Is it necessary, not really. You can get by with forward and back roll and the side ukemi(which is nothing more than a break fall that doesnt get launched into the air.)

What you and I call breakfalls are much different things. When people I throw breakfall, they simply do not have a choice to roll. They have a choice to tuck their chin, exhale, slap the mat, and try not to cross their legs. That is about all the choice they get. This is because they are flying though the air attached to me and have a split second before the rest of my body lands squarely on their torso.

Hey Don,

Sounds about right...

Best,
Ron (ok, I like the aikido version of that too...you know the gracefull, high flying...what ever...)

Ron Tisdale wrote: Hey Don, Sounds about right... Best, Ron (ok, I like the aikido version of that too...you know the gracefull, high flying...what ever...)

I love watching the aikido ones, I just can't make anyone do those....yet....

I still have been unable to jump into breakfalls. I have a mental block on it. Grab me by the chest and toss me and I have no problems

Before I answer the question if break falls are necessary, I am going to qualify my response with similar [rhetorical] questions.... Is swimming necessary? No. Unless you fall into water where you must swim. What knowing how to start a fire? Nope. Unless you need to start a fire. What about learning to read? Professional athletes do it...

I teach break falls to my students because I feel it is academic to their education. Learning to protect your body is important to the study of a martial art, certainly to the practice of that martial art. Also, I do not want to endanger a student by executing a technique unless I am comfortable they can survive the execution of the technique.

Whether my students choose to take a break fall or not is a different question. I give my students the opportunity to take sutemi or ukemi, but I expect them to know both for their safety.

Cough...was that CHEST or CHEST HAIR...

I did that once, unintentionally...

Ever hear a guy scream?

B,
R

Ron Tisdale wrote: Cough...was that CHEST or CHEST HAIR... I did that once, unintentionally... Ever hear a guy scream? B, R

All those judoka make fun of me for wearing a rashguard...until I unleash the chest fro!!!

Don Magee wrote: Well I've tried not teaching falling to new judo students, and they didn't last very long. Breakfalls are important for training in judo. Sure the odd hard throw on a mat won't kill you (once you have trained your body to get used to it), but try taking 200 big throws in a short period without any breakfalls. I still see guys who don't take the breakfalls seriously getting the wind knocked out of them and hitting their head on the floor.

In my opinion breakfalls would be a necessity in JUDO and BJJ. I am just not so sure how it applies with AIKIDO training so that's why I made the thread. Don't get me wrong I did a lot of breakfalls (mat, wood hell even on concrete at times) when I started (did some jumping ones too) but I am just exploring the idea that it may not be much of a necessity in AIKIDO.

One-Aiki,

Iking

Hi

Enrique Antonio Reyes wrote: I am just not so sure how it applies with AIKIDO training so that's why I made the thread. ... but I am just exploring the idea that it may not be much of a necessity in AIKIDO.

I hope my english is enough to make my thoughts understandable ...

morote dori ude kime nage
kote gaeshi
shiho nage
some kokyu nage

Some techniques can be executed in a way nage holds uke elbows, wrist, wrist and elbow or only one elbow (bend of the elbow?) and doesn't let uke go. So the center of the technique is in front of nages center and uke is forced to move around at that hight.
And he can't roll because nage holds on.
Same thing in juji garami

And tenchi nage and irimi nage can be executed in a way, uke has to move around the leg and center of nage. Again rolling isn't possible.

Here is an example of shiho nage.
Here some of the other techniques I mentioned.

I think there is no discussion about Koshi nage and aiki otoshi?

So I don't think that we have to practice every time in this straight manner. But those pictures display the techniques as they ought to be in our opinion.
And that makes breakfalls necessary.

Carsten

Don Magee wrote: What you and I call breakfalls are much different things. When people I throw breakfall, they simply do not have a choice to roll. They have a choice to tuck their chin, exhale, slap the mat, and try not to cross their legs. That is about all the choice they get. This is because they are flying though the air attached to me and have a split second before the rest of my body lands squarely on their torso.

I would call that being caught between the hammer and the anvil, not breakfalling.

We spend a lot of time at my dojo practicing ukemi and breakfalls. I think it's very important for one reason: I can't control how people throw me. But if my ukemi's good enough, I can make sure that I don't get hurt no matter what comes my way.

Also I'm a relative newbie, but I think breakfall can be taught without serious injury. At our dojo, we start with rolls, then yoko ukemi (side fall), and then eventually breakfall (but not with beginners), and I can't recall seeing any injuries other than minor bumps and bruises or soreness.

I wants my uke to get up again so that I can slam him/her again into the mat.

That is why uke must learn breakfalls. Ukes are in short supply, I want to recycle them.

Boon.

I want to fall harder than I throw

I see another reason to do regularly high flying break falls, even in cooperative environment. I observed ppl who don't do it, and their body tends to be sloppy or stiff after many years of practice.

100 high flying break falls in every class it is an excellent method to soft a body, yet still develops great flexibility and power. Also, a body gets use to strong physical impact, so the pain acceptance increases strongly and if you get hit (accidentally or for purpose) you simply don't care.

If you feel pain in a breakfall you are doing it wrong

I think the fact that you are hitting the mat at full force and speed tends to freak people out. Looks sweet and makes a phat noise but if you do it wrong it hurts. Not a huge deal..

I think people should learn it but not do it for every throw executed in class. If you take a nice new variation of a a waza presented by Sensei..hang on to it and take a big fall and test it....

show off at demonstrations etc....

Each to their own

Marie Noelle Fequiere wrote: Not only can good falling techniques help you avoid injury when you take an accidental fall outside of the dojo, what happens when you are attacked on the street by somebody who knows Aikido, and is good at it, and gives you a full speed kotegaeshi?

The streets ARE such a dangerous place.

As for the original question : YES of course sometimes you need to 'breakfall' in aikido.
Well, I guess there may be some dojos where everything is so fluffy and rolly that a hard fall is never taken ... but ... then that's NOT really aikido is it?

Breakfalls often are painful, even if they are totally correct. There is only so much force that can be dissipated through increasing the area of the body that its the mat.

The breakfall is the "high spinning kick" of aikido. Sexy. Youthful. It lets other people know you are the master! It can save your life!

Really I think that you only need them for techniques where both arms need to be tied up for the throw, and things like koshinage

And to deal with macho bullshit.

Lyle Bogin wrote: Breakfalls often are painful, even if they are totally correct.

Hm, got other experiences.

Really I think that you only need them for techniques where both arms need to be tied up for the throw, and things like koshinage

What about shiho nage oder kote gaeshi? Only one arm is involved.
I posted videos of both in this thread. Do you really think, you could roll out of this techniques?

I think on the contrary, that every techinque can be done in a way, uke has to do a breakfall.

Carsten

Hello,

last summer, when I was 5th kyu but had recently started to discover breakfalls and was very happy with this great new discovery, there was a guy who did such a shiho nage on me (with the forearm twisted outwards and an evil block below ) that the only way out would have been a breakfall half backwards - and that variant I didn't know. He didn't know that I didn't know, and so he just went through it with force and velocity, and there I hang on my twisted arm, could not make a nice, swift backroll and slapped my legs furiously.

It hurt THREE months!!!

So I think yes, it is necessary, not only to have fun, but also to protect yourself.
Still, I wouldn't go so far to do a HUNDRED of them during every training...

Best regards,

Eva