Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-01-2008, 10:17 AM   #26
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Maybe the OP's question is more to the point than the follow-ups.
Why is it that under full resistance-breakfalls aren't usually needed?
Full reistance.................hmmm. You mean as in Judo, for example?

The difference between the two arts from a ukemi point of view is Judo's emphasis on not being thrown and thus loosing the match, even at the risk of injury.
In Aikido ukemi is for preventing injury at all costs by escaping the technique if possible, but if not, breakfalling in the hope that after landing you can continue to fight.
The reason it's not deemed to be needed is because Aikido is a "discreditied" art within sporting circles where "full resistance" is common.
I've watched fights in the UFC where fighters have been dumped on their back and submitted/grounded and pounded where an Aikidoka would have floated around the technique and probably escaped.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2008, 11:05 AM   #27
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You also "forgot" my point. Usually they.....haven't let go of you either! Hence the furtherance of my point that the dynamic changes. I'd add to that the way the body falls when being thrown from active resistance is different as well.
Well I've tried not teaching falling to new judo students, and they didn't last very long. Breakfalls are important for training in judo. Sure the odd hard throw on a mat won't kill you (once you have trained your body to get used to it), but try taking 200 big throws in a short period without any breakfalls. I still see guys who don't take the breakfalls seriously getting the wind knocked out of them and hitting their head on the floor.

But you are correct, in actual sparing or competition, the falls are less important. But if you do not drill them you will not have trained the body to exhale and tuck the chin. Those are really the two things that let you keep fighting after getting a big hard fall.

If falling skills were not important, then I would expect to see more wrestlers who show up for judo to fair better in the throw line/sparing when being thrown.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2008, 12:31 PM   #28
Nafis Zahir
 
Nafis Zahir's Avatar
Dojo: Bucks County Aikido
Location: Pennsylvania
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 425
United_States
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Are breakfalls necessary? Sometimes they are. I have seen people take breakfalls when it was not necessary to do show. That kind of thing is just showboating. But when training very hard, it may be necessary to take a breakfall when you are thrown very hard, suddenly taken off of your feet, or held when you are use to being let go. I don't think it's something that should be done very often, but I do believe it is something that should be worked on. I only do them when necessary.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2008, 02:21 PM   #29
Marie Noelle Fequiere
 
Marie Noelle Fequiere's Avatar
Dojo: Ikashi Dojo, Port au Prince
Location: Port au Prince
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 284
Haiti
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Not only can good falling techniques help you avoid injury when you take an accidental fall outside of the dojo, what happens when you are attacked on the street by somebody who knows Aikido, and is good at it, and gives you a full speed kotegaeshi?
I've said it before, I will say it again: The assumption that only honest people have access to martial art training and the ability to excel in them is naive.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2008, 02:24 PM   #30
SmilingNage
Location: NJ
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 241
United_States
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Breakfalls are nothing more than rolling in the air above the mat. It is an extension of rolling on the mat. If you cant roll, then you shouldnt breakfall. It is an advance understanding of ukemi and technique. With that being said should you learn it, of course. Is it necessary, not really. You can get by with forward and back roll and the side ukemi(which is nothing more than a break fall that doesnt get launched into the air.)

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2008, 03:04 PM   #31
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Check out the third one: Kote gaeshi or kokyu nage?
The first one is different, but there is no difference in bending the wrist between the second (ushiro ukemi) and the third version (mae ukemi). It isn't causing pain this way anywa. What throws uke in the third version is the different kuzushi. And it isn't possible to do ushiro ukemi in that situation.
Three diferents variations on the same theme. Well put together. However, in the video, it looks like he's working the wrist... Have to feel it, but I'll take your word for it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2008, 05:19 PM   #32
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Quote:
William Oakes wrote: View Post
Breakfalls are nothing more than rolling in the air above the mat. It is an extension of rolling on the mat. If you cant roll, then you shouldnt breakfall. It is an advance understanding of ukemi and technique. With that being said should you learn it, of course. Is it necessary, not really. You can get by with forward and back roll and the side ukemi(which is nothing more than a break fall that doesnt get launched into the air.)
What you and I call breakfalls are much different things. When people I throw breakfall, they simply do not have a choice to roll. They have a choice to tuck their chin, exhale, slap the mat, and try not to cross their legs. That is about all the choice they get. This is because they are flying though the air attached to me and have a split second before the rest of my body lands squarely on their torso.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2008, 05:28 PM   #33
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Hey Don,

Sounds about right...

Best,
Ron (ok, I like the aikido version of that too...you know the gracefull, high flying...what ever...)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2008, 05:40 PM   #34
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hey Don,

Sounds about right...

Best,
Ron (ok, I like the aikido version of that too...you know the gracefull, high flying...what ever...)
I love watching the aikido ones, I just can't make anyone do those....yet....

I still have been unable to jump into breakfalls. I have a mental block on it. Grab me by the chest and toss me and I have no problems

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2008, 07:04 PM   #35
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 892
United_States
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Before I answer the question if break falls are necessary, I am going to qualify my response with similar [rhetorical] questions.... Is swimming necessary? No. Unless you fall into water where you must swim. What knowing how to start a fire? Nope. Unless you need to start a fire. What about learning to read? Professional athletes do it...

I teach break falls to my students because I feel it is academic to their education. Learning to protect your body is important to the study of a martial art, certainly to the practice of that martial art. Also, I do not want to endanger a student by executing a technique unless I am comfortable they can survive the execution of the technique.

Whether my students choose to take a break fall or not is a different question. I give my students the opportunity to take sutemi or ukemi, but I expect them to know both for their safety.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2008, 07:10 PM   #36
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Cough...was that CHEST or CHEST HAIR...

I did that once, unintentionally...

Ever hear a guy scream?

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2008, 09:15 PM   #37
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Cough...was that CHEST or CHEST HAIR...

I did that once, unintentionally...

Ever hear a guy scream?

B,
R
All those judoka make fun of me for wearing a rashguard...until I unleash the chest fro!!!

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 02:37 AM   #38
Enrique Antonio Reyes
Dojo: Yuugou Aikido Kaisho
Location: Manila
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 132
Philippines
Offline
Lightbulb Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Well I've tried not teaching falling to new judo students, and they didn't last very long. Breakfalls are important for training in judo. Sure the odd hard throw on a mat won't kill you (once you have trained your body to get used to it), but try taking 200 big throws in a short period without any breakfalls. I still see guys who don't take the breakfalls seriously getting the wind knocked out of them and hitting their head on the floor.
In my opinion breakfalls would be a necessity in JUDO and BJJ. I am just not so sure how it applies with AIKIDO training so that's why I made the thread. Don't get me wrong I did a lot of breakfalls (mat, wood hell even on concrete at times) when I started (did some jumping ones too) but I am just exploring the idea that it may not be much of a necessity in AIKIDO.

One-Aiki,

Iking
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 03:17 AM   #39
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 832
Germany
Online
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Hi
Quote:
Enrique Antonio Reyes wrote: View Post
I am just not so sure how it applies with AIKIDO training so that's why I made the thread. ... but I am just exploring the idea that it may not be much of a necessity in AIKIDO.
I hope my english is enough to make my thoughts understandable ...

morote dori ude kime nage
kote gaeshi
shiho nage
some kokyu nage

Some techniques can be executed in a way nage holds uke elbows, wrist, wrist and elbow or only one elbow (bend of the elbow?) and doesn't let uke go. So the center of the technique is in front of nages center and uke is forced to move around at that hight.
And he can't roll because nage holds on.
Same thing in juji garami

And tenchi nage and irimi nage can be executed in a way, uke has to move around the leg and center of nage. Again rolling isn't possible.

Here is an example of shiho nage.
Here some of the other techniques I mentioned.

I think there is no discussion about Koshi nage and aiki otoshi?

So I don't think that we have to practice every time in this straight manner. But those pictures display the techniques as they ought to be in our opinion.
And that makes breakfalls necessary.

Carsten

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 10-02-2008 at 03:20 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 07:50 AM   #40
SmilingNage
Location: NJ
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 241
United_States
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
What you and I call breakfalls are much different things. When people I throw breakfall, they simply do not have a choice to roll. They have a choice to tuck their chin, exhale, slap the mat, and try not to cross their legs. That is about all the choice they get. This is because they are flying though the air attached to me and have a split second before the rest of my body lands squarely on their torso.
I would call that being caught between the hammer and the anvil, not breakfalling.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 09:50 AM   #41
Tambreet
Dojo: Tenshinkan Dojo, Chicago
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 36
United_States
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

We spend a lot of time at my dojo practicing ukemi and breakfalls. I think it's very important for one reason: I can't control how people throw me. But if my ukemi's good enough, I can make sure that I don't get hurt no matter what comes my way.

Also I'm a relative newbie, but I think breakfall can be taught without serious injury. At our dojo, we start with rolls, then yoko ukemi (side fall), and then eventually breakfall (but not with beginners), and I can't recall seeing any injuries other than minor bumps and bruises or soreness.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2008, 12:13 AM   #42
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

I wants my uke to get up again so that I can slam him/her again into the mat.

That is why uke must learn breakfalls. Ukes are in short supply, I want to recycle them.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2008, 09:03 AM   #43
Mato-san
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 290
Iceland
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

I want to fall harder than I throw

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2008, 09:06 AM   #44
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,145
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

I see another reason to do regularly high flying break falls, even in cooperative environment. I observed ppl who don't do it, and their body tends to be sloppy or stiff after many years of practice.

100 high flying break falls in every class it is an excellent method to soft a body, yet still develops great flexibility and power. Also, a body gets use to strong physical impact, so the pain acceptance increases strongly and if you get hit (accidentally or for purpose) you simply don't care.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2008, 09:10 AM   #45
Mato-san
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 290
Iceland
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

If you feel pain in a breakfall you are doing it wrong

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2008, 09:35 AM   #46
Mato-san
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 290
Iceland
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

I think the fact that you are hitting the mat at full force and speed tends to freak people out. Looks sweet and makes a phat noise but if you do it wrong it hurts. Not a huge deal..

I think people should learn it but not do it for every throw executed in class. If you take a nice new variation of a a waza presented by Sensei..hang on to it and take a big fall and test it....

show off at demonstrations etc....

Each to their own

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2008, 09:48 AM   #47
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 402
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Quote:
Marie Noelle Fequiere wrote: View Post
Not only can good falling techniques help you avoid injury when you take an accidental fall outside of the dojo, what happens when you are attacked on the street by somebody who knows Aikido, and is good at it, and gives you a full speed kotegaeshi?
The streets ARE such a dangerous place.

As for the original question : YES of course sometimes you need to 'breakfall' in aikido.
Well, I guess there may be some dojos where everything is so fluffy and rolly that a hard fall is never taken ... but ... then that's NOT really aikido is it?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2008, 05:51 AM   #48
Lyle Bogin
Dojo: Shin Budo Kai
Location: Manhattan
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 588
United_States
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Breakfalls often are painful, even if they are totally correct. There is only so much force that can be dissipated through increasing the area of the body that its the mat.

The breakfall is the "high spinning kick" of aikido. Sexy. Youthful. It lets other people know you are the master! It can save your life!

Really I think that you only need them for techniques where both arms need to be tied up for the throw, and things like koshinage

And to deal with macho bullshit.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2008, 06:25 AM   #49
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 832
Germany
Online
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Quote:
Lyle Bogin wrote: View Post
Breakfalls often are painful, even if they are totally correct.
Hm, got other experiences.

Quote:
Really I think that you only need them for techniques where both arms need to be tied up for the throw, and things like koshinage
What about shiho nage oder kote gaeshi? Only one arm is involved.
I posted videos of both in this thread. Do you really think, you could roll out of this techniques?

I think on the contrary, that every techinque can be done in a way, uke has to do a breakfall.

Carsten
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2008, 06:59 AM   #50
Eva Antonia
Dojo: CERIA
Location: Brussels
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 209
Belgium
Offline
Re: Are breakfalls really necessary?

Hello,

last summer, when I was 5th kyu but had recently started to discover breakfalls and was very happy with this great new discovery, there was a guy who did such a shiho nage on me (with the forearm twisted outwards and an evil block below ) that the only way out would have been a breakfall half backwards - and that variant I didn't know. He didn't know that I didn't know, and so he just went through it with force and velocity, and there I hang on my twisted arm, could not make a nice, swift backroll and slapped my legs furiously.

It hurt THREE months!!!

So I think yes, it is necessary, not only to have fun, but also to protect yourself.
Still, I wouldn't go so far to do a HUNDRED of them during every training...

Best regards,

Eva
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
soft breakfalls kensparrow Training 136 07-26-2009 10:43 PM
Youth and breakfalls. Joost Korpel Teaching 19 05-15-2005 12:10 PM
Rolls and breakfalls zeoblade Training 15 10-03-2004 08:34 AM
When to introduce breakfalls Don_Modesto Teaching 25 08-21-2004 01:25 PM
extensive breakfalls adriangan Training 8 07-10-2002 10:46 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:34 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate