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Old 09-26-2008, 12:57 AM   #76
Aikibu
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Opps I meant Matadors. Sorry for the confusion on my part.

William Hazen
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Old 09-26-2008, 05:28 AM   #77
rob_liberti
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Ohmigod.... so many potential one-liners, so little time. Of course it was my lack of understanding about how to get through to you that was the problem. My apologies.

Mike
Hey I'll let it slide. No it wasn't your problem except that you seemed to want to convince me.

Telling me about a jo trick that no one else was doing didn't impress upon me the idea that aiki skills to that level were attainable. Telling me that moving with kokyu or jin forces did nothing to impress me because there are plenty of aikido people who have kokyu power to a ridiculous degree relative to the average guy. I just assumed you were another CMA guy who probably couldn't move all that well but had all sorts of power standing in one spot - and were judging people who were moving around unfairly.

If I read about things I valued that no one I know of in aikido could do that everyone in a particular dojo could do in short time - that would have gotten my attention. That's all I meant.

Rob
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Old 09-26-2008, 05:36 AM   #78
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Can you kick my a**?
That is the definitely one of the first questions I have when I meet someone who has martial skills. And no, I never asked Dan verbally. But I tested him - well beyond all reason and logic (but nothing stupid). But I had to know. There were plenty of times he wrecked me (delicately of course - like wrestling with a gorilla that is trying not to hurt you) and I should have gotten the message the first time - but I had "questions" so I interrupted him while he was teaching others about what just happened and said things like "wait, do that again". And he did, and I tried to change things a bit, and I tried again and again. When I attacked him most of my questions were answered. When he attacked me (again - delicately) a lot more of my questions were answered. The only real question left was "How can I do this too?" Then there were follow up questions like "So exactly what is it that he has that I am trying to get" - and that's how I started forming my questions about vulnerability on the typical line of weakness, hitting without committing weight, etc...

Oh, and if that was really a question directed at me then "maybe". I hear William Hazen has a ""Thunderdome". So, if I survive my first death match there, you can be the next guy.

Rob
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Old 09-26-2008, 05:45 AM   #79
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
That is the definitely one of the first questions I have when I meet someone who has martial skills. And no, I never asked Dan verbally. But I tested him - well beyond all reason and logic (but nothing stupid). But I had to know. There were plenty of times he wrecked me (delicately of course - like wrestling with a gorilla that is trying not to hurt you) and I should have gotten the message the first time - but I had "questions" so I interrupted him while he was teaching others about what just happened and said things like "wait, do that again". And he did, and I tried to change things a bit, and I tried again and again. When I attacked him most of my questions were answered. When he attacked me (again - delicately) a lot more of my questions were answered. The only real question left was "How can I do this too?" Then there were follow up questions like "So exactly what is it that he has that I am trying to get" - and that's how I started forming my questions about vulnerability on the typical line of weakness, hitting without committing weight, etc...

Oh, and if that was really a question directed at me then "maybe". I hear William Hazen has a ""Thunderdome". So, if I survive my first death match there, you can be the next guy.

Rob
So, that long post was just another way to say that you're hard headed and stubborn?

Seriously, though. You posted a list.

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
For internal skills I want to know:
Can you deliver force without committing weight?
Can you move freely without your balance being vulnerable to pushes and pulls on the line from anus to navel?
How long did it take you to develop such things?
I'd probably add something about what are your hips doing. Are the hips driving your power or not?
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Old 09-26-2008, 06:05 AM   #80
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

I think Rob just defined...himself.
"Hey, what would happen if I told you I was going to do this but then I did....that instead??

Or Mark Chiappetta deciding that when I threw him in a kata to show a ground landing and side mount "potential" to change that into a grappling session, two hip turns and an arm drag later he asked "Is this Okay to do?" Three change ups and several submission attempts and a triangle choke attempt with my bouncing him on his head...I said "Sure, no problem. Just remember
Jujutsu...happens"

Yeah...you guys are fun!
I'm just a helpless middle-aged white guy
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Old 09-26-2008, 06:51 AM   #81
phitruong
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
For aikido, I would evaluate someone by questions like:
Can you do ikkyo without pushing?
Can you do iriminage without pulling?
Can you do shihonage without lifting?
(At the time, this was meant to be in terms of uke's without internal skills of course)

For internal skills I want to know:
Can you deliver force without committing weight?
Can you move freely without your balance being vulnerable to pushes and pulls on the line from anus to navel?
How long did it take you to develop such things?

Rob
lets see, for aikido, hmm what's aikido again? I thought aiki knows no waza. that were all the tesst of aikido? darn! here i was sweating preparing for the test. yup! scratch one test off the list.

internal: still claim on know nothing about internal other than what i had at the dimsum restaurant.

"deliver force without committing weight." lets see, I have practice striking in the deep end of the pool before, sort of outer space weightlessness. would that count? would wearing zebra speedo while doing that sort of thing count more?

"pushes and pulls on the line from anus to navel?" hmm you know! there are things along that line I really don't want folks to push or pull. I will protect that area with extreme prejudice.

I think I'll go and watch okamoto sensei video instead. it's fun to see him giving his ukes whiplash and thinking, those poor bastards! then thinking, hey! Howard did those stuffs to me too! going to find someway to stop Howard, one of these days. maybe I'll just throw a big fish at him first. art of war, find the weak spot and go for it!
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:54 AM   #82
DH
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
I think I'll go and watch okamoto sensei video instead. it's fun to see him giving his ukes whiplash and thinking, those poor bastards! then thinking, hey! Howard did those stuffs to me too! going to find someway to stop Howard, one of these days. maybe I'll just throw a big fish at him first. art of war, find the weak spot and go for it!
Stopping all Daito ryu and aikido "effects" on you will take a few years of study here in training to connect your body. The only trouble is what to do with it when you want to go play with the other boys and girls. You'll have to let yourself fall apart, or stand there looking at people while they try and throw you with waza that will no longer work on you.
If that's your goal its pretty simple to accomplish. After that there are much more serious stresses to put on your structure, then more serious stresses still in dealing with someone who knows what you know.
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Old 09-26-2008, 08:17 AM   #83
rob_liberti
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Well I had to convince myself that what I was being told was happening was really what was happening. No disrespect. People fool themselves all of the time.

And THE best way to not fool yourself is to come up with ... drum roll please ... questions outside of your "context" or your own backyard as it were. They don't have to be verbal questions initially, but eventually, you would think one might be able to describe them, test them, and get some sort of larger perspective.

Rob
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Old 09-26-2008, 10:06 AM   #84
Allen Beebe
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

To me, "Can they kick my a$$?," isn't that meaningful or relevant of a question.

My questions are: Can they do something I want to learn significantly better than I can? Can they teach it? Will they teach it to me?

A "No" answer to any one of those questions is a deal breaker for me.

Next comes, "What is the cost?"

If the "cost" includes anything (associations, actions, thought processes, etc.) that will violate values that I hold dearer than my quest for a particular learning or ability, THAT is a deal breaker as well.

Allen

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 09-26-2008, 10:52 AM   #85
rob_liberti
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Can they do something I want to learn significantly better than I can?
Right and defining what that "something" is typically, to people outside of that art just doesn't seem that unreasonable to me.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 09-26-2008 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 09-26-2008, 12:44 PM   #86
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
To me, "Can they kick my a$$?," isn't that meaningful or relevant of a question.
Imo, this is the only relevant question if someone claims "martial skills".

Quote:
My questions are: Can they do something I want to learn significantly better than I can? Can they teach it? Will they teach it to me?...What is the cost?
These are very valid questions too, but are more related to how the previous one has been answered and if what the individual claims is "coaching/teaching skills".

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Old 09-26-2008, 12:59 PM   #87
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Imo, this is the only relevant question if someone claims "martial skills".
I'm sorry, but I don't understand that. There are plenty of people that can teach me things who can't kick my butt, and many of those things ARE usefull to me in a martial context.

One easy example, say there is an aikido instructor who is 90 years old. He has been training since Ueshiba Sensei's days, and he still trains and teaches. He has developed a way of using his body that allows him to express an unusual amount of power for his age and size. And to connect with opponents in such a way as to negate their power.

Are you telling me I shouldn't train with him because I at 47 can kick his butt at 90+ years of age??? Heck, that might apply to most of Ueshiba's senior students now...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 09-26-2008, 01:21 PM   #88
Allen Beebe
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Right and defining what that "something" is typically, to people outside of that art just doesn't seem that unreasonable to me.

Rob
My present obsession is as follows:

I want to be able to receive a push to the chest while I stand naturally and casually (take a leak stance) from an individual my size or bigger with him/her in any stance of their choosing pushing one or two handed (whatever they prefer) as hard as they can sweating and heaving. (Of course I'll want to be able to carry that ability into dynamic motion . . . that goes without saying. What fun is just standing there?)

Having achieved that . . . well I'll no doubt think of other things I want . . . on my way to becoming a super hero.

Seriously,
Allen
(Well, maybe not so much the super hero part . . . but it is a good long term goal.)

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 09-26-2008, 01:48 PM   #89
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

I just want the cape...

B,
R (ok, the push to chest thingy to...)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 09-26-2008, 02:06 PM   #90
Allen Beebe
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I just want the cape...

B,
R (ok, the push to chest thingy to...)
Ron . . . ,

Uh . . . we really don't need to know about your costume fantasies!

Allen

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 09-26-2008, 03:04 PM   #91
Mike Sigman
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
I want to be able to receive a push to the chest while I stand naturally and casually (take a leak stance) from an individual my size or bigger with him/her in any stance of their choosing pushing one or two handed (whatever they prefer) as hard as they can sweating and heaving.
Hmmmmmm.... I think this "standing solid against a push" needs to be understood for what it and what it isn't. I can usually (every time I've tried) push over even someone with good jin skills using just 2 fingers. Usually as soon as they realize that I can do it, they begin to lean to try to counter the push.... but that immediately tells me that they're more into games-playing than seriousness.

There are two major factors to grounding a push, but I won't bore people with something so many people on this thread already know.



Mike
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Old 09-26-2008, 04:35 PM   #92
MM
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Ah, yes, the push to the chest. I have learned well how to "take a step back". It was a very important lesson and one that I have completely and utterly imbued into my body. In the near future I can tell that I will be able to "take a step back" with force. And soon, there will no longer be just a master and an apprentice, there will be a master and two apprentices -- who can "take a step back". (Sorry, that was an in-joke for just a few people)

Seriously, I work with the push to the chest exercise (both in a natural stance and also with one leg back) for a couple of reasons. The first is the basic one to work on structure within my body. It is a very good exercise to get oneself aligned -- because if you aren't, you fall apart rather easily. And boy do I fall apart rather easily still. This structure stuff takes a lot of mental effort and some physical.

A second reason is because I still find myself "fighting" or "resisting" the push when I shouldn't be.

Another is for working lines of intent, but that only comes after the structure is good.
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Old 09-26-2008, 04:57 PM   #93
MM
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
My present obsession is as follows:

I want to be able to receive a push to the chest while I stand naturally and casually (take a leak stance) from an individual my size or bigger with him/her in any stance of their choosing pushing one or two handed (whatever they prefer) as hard as they can sweating and heaving. (Of course I'll want to be able to carry that ability into dynamic motion . . . that goes without saying. What fun is just standing there?)

Having achieved that . . . well I'll no doubt think of other things I want . . . on my way to becoming a super hero.

Seriously,
Allen
(Well, maybe not so much the super hero part . . . but it is a good long term goal.)
I have found two very important distinctions in these kinds of exercises. Those that are working on structure and those who aren't.

When I work with Brian or Chris, any one of us can blow through the other person's structure -- for the most part. There are times when that doesn't happen.

But, when we work with people who aren't training in structure/aiki, then it is quite a bit easier to hold our structure. The push to the chest in a natural stance is the exception -- for now. Standing feet side by side with arms out to the side, we've had 250 to 300 pound guys give their all in a push to our outstretched hand and not be able to move us.

I have a vid where Brian is pushing the side of my head. Brian was giving a lot of force that wasn't structured. You can tell because if he was using structure, two things would have happened. I'd have had a heck of a lot harder time not moving and probably would have moved. And he wouldn't have popped forward at all when I did move to test his force.

So, when you say you want someone your size or bigger to push, are you meaning "normal" people or "structured" people? Worlds of difference.
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Old 09-26-2008, 05:02 PM   #94
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
There are two major factors to grounding a push, but I won't bore people with something so many people on this thread already know.



Mike
LOL, okay, Mike, I'll bite. What are the two things? Remember, I'm just a beginner at this stuff and still working my way through things.

If I had to guess, I'd say one of them is the pathways in the body being clean and clear. That sort of ties in with having a good structure. The second one I would guess is intent.
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Old 09-26-2008, 06:57 PM   #95
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
[snip]I should have gotten the message the first time - but I had "questions" so I interrupted him while he was teaching others about what just happened and said things like "wait, do that again". And he did[snip]
Rob
Man I love the way you learn.
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:04 PM   #96
Allen Beebe
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
So, when you say you want someone your size or bigger to push, are you meaning "normal" people or "structured" people? Worlds of difference.
Don't you mean a mortal vs a super hero?

Well, that is a complex question really. It kind of depends on what super powers the super hero is bringing to the test doesn't it? You mentioned structure. If that alone is brought used then yeah I want to stand up to the best of them. If other super powers are used well, I guess I want to be able to use other super powers as well.

This kind of harkens back to the "Can they kick my a$$" thing though. I'm fairly confident that there will always be somebody that can kick my ass. I think it very unlikely that on the continum of folks I'm going to be on the very end of the spectrum. Consequently, if I wanted to learn from just anybody that could kick my ass . . . I'd be learning from just a pretty broad spectrum of abilities. I'm selfish enough that I want to learn from someone significantly higher on the spectrum with regards to understanding and teaching ability. What I really want is to be able to kick a$$ to the best of my ability in the manner of my choosing . . . although my choosing remains open because I almost always choose what I think is best. As far as getting pushed on the chest goes, in the end I really don't much care as long as they are a good training partner.

But in the end, yeah I want to be the one standing there no matter who pushes. . . but I understand that that is just what I WANT and nothing more. I'm going to get pushed back by a lot of people before I can stand up to a lot of people.

If this is like everything else, when I can stand up to most, I'll be thrilled (and annoyed) when someone pushes me back because I'll have encountered an opportunity to learn more.

How did that happen and what do I do about it?

Sorry for the scattered post. I'm in a rush to go to training.

Bye,
Allen

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:07 PM   #97
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

I know you're not talking about me . . . and I'm not easily bored! You can PM or e-mail me if you like.

Best,
Allen

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hmmmmmm.... I think this "standing solid against a push" needs to be understood for what it and what it isn't. I can usually (every time I've tried) push over even someone with good jin skills using just 2 fingers. Usually as soon as they realize that I can do it, they begin to lean to try to counter the push.... but that immediately tells me that they're more into games-playing than seriousness.

There are two major factors to grounding a push, but I won't bore people with something so many people on this thread already know.



Mike

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:14 PM   #98
mjchip
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Or Mark Chiappetta deciding that when I threw him in a kata to show a ground landing and side mount "potential" to change that into a grappling session, two hip turns and an arm drag later he asked "Is this Okay to do?" Three change ups and several submission attempts and a triangle choke attempt with my bouncing him on his head...I said "Sure, no problem. Just remember
Jujutsu...happens"

Yeah...you guys are fun!
I'm just a helpless middle-aged white guy
Middle-aged....yup. Helpless.....my a$$.

Just to clarify, I *love* to grapple. When Dan threw me I instinctively found myself wanting to do jujutsu. However, little alarm bells went off in my head and I thought "I sure hope he doesn't take this the wrong way". I wasn't looking to test him at all, that was all worked out for me the first 10 minutes I stepped into his dojo two years ago. In that vain I ask a question and give an answer:

Question: What can you do to a man that you can't throw, one that you can hit as hard as you can and you freakin' bounce off, and one that can hit you harder than you've ever been hit before while you deny him the distance to generate power (at least in theory).

Answer: Ask if you can keep coming back. I did, he said yes, and the rest is history (and a crap load of hard work).

I hate to sound like a cheerleader but I can't help myself. Color me impressed....

Best,

Mark

Last edited by mjchip : 09-26-2008 at 07:16 PM.
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:40 PM   #99
rob_liberti
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hmmmmmm.... I think this "standing solid against a push" needs to be understood for what it and what it isn't. I can usually (every time I've tried) push over even someone with good jin skills using just 2 fingers. Usually as soon as they realize that I can do it, they begin to lean to try to counter the push.... but that immediately tells me that they're more into games-playing than seriousness.

There are two major factors to grounding a push, but I won't bore people with something so many people on this thread already know.



Mike
I understand about the being able to push through someone with good structure. How is your defense against someone using that kind of push against your structure? I have none.

Rob
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:48 PM   #100
Mike Sigman
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I understand about the being able to push through someone with good structure. How is your defense against someone using that kind of push against your structure? I have none.
You probably have no defense against someone driving a 1955 Chevrolet pickup into your "structure", either, if you get my point. I.e., there are limits to what anyone can do.

Think about Tohei, for example. He showed these ki/kokyu/groundpath things (sure they're *enhanced* by structure, but it's the jin, not the structure, that is important) but only as a direction toward developing the correct strengths to be used in Aikido for "aiki" manipulation of an opponent. These groundpath things are the "Go" of Go-Ju. Aikido focuses on the "ju" as do other branches/subsets of jujitsu. So the point of trying to be totally immoveable is not as important as the point of having this strength but being able to manipulate it in a "ju" manner or an "aiki" manner (branches of the same thing).

Me personally? I do different things, but the point being that no matter what I do there are limits to demonstrations of resisting and the important point is that it's smarter to know how to manipulate, blend, and so on.

Best.

Mike
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