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Old 09-20-2008, 12:33 PM   #26
Mike Sigman
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
As far as what I think I'm actually doing, I'm not volunteering that level or degree of information to the uninitiated yet. I'm simply not good enough to do it properly and I'm not sure that those basics SHOULD be described in a public forum. Seems like a pandora's box type of thing to me. Just because there are bigger weapons than knifes, I still wouldn't feel right about giving them indiscriminately away especially if there were only a few sources for them...
Hmmmmm.... well, don't we get into the "now that I'm in the club I think we should shut the door" syndrome? From my experience, there's a lot more to it than just the elementary basics that a lot of people are enjoying at first. If we keep the discussions so limited that people have to beg to even get basic information then we get back to this limited approach that cost Aikido and other arts so heavily by reserving who gets even the starter information.

Heck, if nothing else remember that Tohei put his stuff out there 40 years ago and it died off. I remember putting out 2 different sets of very basic how-to's videos back in the 1990's and even with explicit directions most people couldn't progress because you can't "feel" what to do through a video. So the worries about talking basics on an internet forum are way overdone, IMO. Besides, it keeps people honest when they talk publicly about skills they're professing to teach; it's easy to fool beginners, but even the densest poster begins to realize that he's not really fooling someone who has real or better skills. It's helpful all the way around to encourage discussion.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-20-2008, 06:15 PM   #27
rob_liberti
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

I am really hoping not to get into a clash with you after we achieved peace.

Quote:
don't we get into the "now that I'm in the club I think we should shut the door" syndrome?
Maybe I'm just a bit off tonight, but this reads to me as if you are commenting on my personality and/or politics - which just seems odd... If I got it wrong, please by all means explain. If not then lets just just save a lot of time and effort and ask Jun to close this thread down right now.

There are obviously much more senior people in "the club" to be the ones to describe the how-to-s right here on aikiweb.

I feel that if someone is right there in the room with me, and I misstate something, they can ask questions, feel what I am doing, we can go back and forth directly until I/we clarify what I'm trying to explain. I am just not ready to take responsibility for people to be reading MY instructions about how to do internal power and internal skill on the internet.

Rob
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Old 09-20-2008, 06:43 PM   #28
Mike Sigman
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Maybe I'm just a bit off tonight, but this reads to me as if you are commenting on my personality and/or politics - which just seems odd... If I got it wrong, please by all means explain. If not then lets just just save a lot of time and effort and ask Jun to close this thread down right now.
Not a bit of it... I was debating a position that you mentioned. I wasn't talking about you singularly but anyone who gets some information about these skills but who then thinks that we should be careful from now on, etc. I.e., I asked a serious question and I don't even want to discuss "you and me".
Quote:
I feel that if someone is right there in the room with me, and I misstate something, they can ask questions, feel what I am doing, we can go back and forth directly until I/we clarify what I'm trying to explain. I am just not ready to take responsibility for people to be reading MY instructions about how to do internal power and internal skill on the internet.
Pooh. If you simply state "in my opinion" and then describe what you think, it's obvious that an open-ended discussion is ensuing and "instructions". My recommendation is that not only on AikiWeb but anywhere you can, you hash these things out, think out loud, etc. Same with everyone else... they should also. No one is an ultimate authority (unless, of course, I tell Ricky Wood someone is an absolute authority ). The basics are critical as a discussion platform if these things are to become re-established, IMO.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-20-2008, 09:38 PM   #29
rob_liberti
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Okay, we're good. But don't call me "Pooh". I'm more of a Tigger until I work out for a few hours then I am more of an Eeor.

In my opinion, I should teach these skills in the same manner I learned them. That just happens to mean not over the internet and also that the person teaching has them down quite well.

If you seriously want to write how-tos, I'll happily read them, try them, and comment on them.

Rob
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Old 09-20-2008, 09:48 PM   #30
Mike Sigman
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
If you seriously want to write how-tos, I'll happily read them, try them, and comment on them.
Please... let's don't turn the subject to me personally. That was *not* the point I made or the issue I raised.

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:47 PM   #31
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

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Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Well, that is something. And I suppose Dan is "satisfied" that Toby and Howard have "some degree" of skills based on his recommendation.

Yes, but how does your "feel[ing] better" concern others? I can see how a plug from someone generally recognized by others (who have felt them) could benefit a seminar, but it sounds as though you think that they *require* some form of recognition from some "authority" to allow themselves to be experienced. This doesn't seem to reflect the realism that you have conveyed in your most recent posts nor does it seem fair.

This reasoning holds true if they "can't" post to the public. It doesn't hold true if they simply "don't" post to the public. Furthermore, George Ledyard has felt you, Ushiro Kenji, Ark Aizawa, Rob John, and Howard and Toby, and obviously feels training (and teaching) with both Howard (repeatedly) and Toby is beneficial.

So I'm guessing I won't be seeing you there Mike. Too bad. I'd still like to see you in the future though!

This may be more true of you than of others though.

Once again, "can show" and "choose to show" are two different things.

These guys probably don't feel like they have anything to prove to us any more than a Chen family member probably feels compelled to verbally vet themselves on the boards.

If there are doubts, folks can go out and feel for themselves. No?

That being said, I am grateful for those that do share as much as they choose to. (Even though the sharing is rather restricted compared to all that they COULD share wouldn't you agree? Everyone draws a line somewhere.)

All the best,
Allen
My thoughts exactly. Great thread. I have been away for a while but I now look forward to experiencing what I can with some of the folks I have met here.

William Hazen
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Old 09-21-2008, 07:43 AM   #32
rob_liberti
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Please... let's don't turn the subject to me personally. That was *not* the point I made or the issue I raised.
No fooling. It was MY position that it makes a lot more sense for senior members of "the club" to go first in terms of how-tos. It may be personal to you - but only because you are a senior member of "the club" you brought up in the first place.

I am fairly sure that if Dan wanted his methodology on the internet he'd post about it himself. I haven't read your methodology in posts either. Maybe I missed it, but you have so many posts, a search would be like a needle in a hay stack.

You are posting that you want people to write about the basics. You know them, and I'm sure you know them well. Go ahead and write to your hearts content.

I posted just informing about my position. It's not really open to debate. It read to me like my position was quoted, and then my character was challenged. The way I see it, challenging my position would not have had:

Quote:
"now that I'm in the club I think we should shut the door"
For challenging my position without challenging my character, I would have expected something more like "don't worry about misinforming people, Dan and I are participating in the thread and we'll ensure the information is correct."

So just to be clear on the topic of "On Talking About Internal Training" - I feel that it should probably be talked about in depth by more senior people. In talking about what it means to aikido, aikido people should probably do more of the talking.

Does anyone remember that silly program called eliza?

Rob
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Old 09-21-2008, 07:43 AM   #33
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

I like where this discussion is going. Frankly, I'm far less interested in hearing how someone gets "bounced" away at a touch than what you're training to do to yourself - that happens to produce that effect.
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Old 09-21-2008, 07:51 AM   #34
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

I agree Bud. Now, who would you be more interested in reading that from? The new guy to it, or the people who have been doing it and teaching it for years and years?
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Old 09-21-2008, 08:31 AM   #35
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

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Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Does anyone remember that silly program called eliza?
My kids thought it was great fun to get eliza to swear.
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Old 09-21-2008, 08:36 AM   #36
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I like where this discussion is going. Frankly, I'm far less interested in hearing how someone gets "bounced" away at a touch than what you're training to do to yourself - that happens to produce that effect.
Mike mentioned something about clicking your heels together in another thread.
I'm with you Budd. There has got to be some physical movements/exercises that can be described that would be helpful.
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Old 09-21-2008, 11:34 AM   #37
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

I disagree with writing about it on the internet. I always have-I've never changed my position. Initially it was a way to vet people who were claiming to be able to do some things. I held back. Some wrote descriptions of exercises, I wrote some things that Rob included in his training descriptions, but I never wrote how-to's. I limited my involvement to descriptions of effects in your body and the affect it had on those trying to throw you. Those weren't "how-to's", but descriptions of "what happens" when you train this way.
In fact I squarely placed my discussions on the potentials of training this way, and what people should be judging others by, and the standard they could be reaching for. In others words, open up a dialogue of potentials and point to those who have the skills. Let people go and feel. Let them assess the worth, good, bad or indifferent, and decided if they want it.
Since that description has produced a 100% conversion rate to training this way, and the internet has only resulted in a firestorm of non-defensible position taking-sometimes even defying the writing on the wall, I fail to see any point in how-to's anymore.

Another reason I reserve showing "how-to's" to "hands-on", was:
1. I really DON"T want to teach someone who hasn't been vetted by me or those I know. If I'm going to spend time training someone, I'd rather know I am not empowering someone who struts around the dojo abusing lesser folks.
2. All writing does is give someone enough information to "sound like" they know what they're talking about and enter into a discussion where they don't belong.
3. Spend more time endlessly debating with a hollow voice on the other end who I thought was debating something they can actually do when it's all theory. Thus contributing to yet another dead end.
Having all the intellectual knowledge in the world isn't going to help those who will not and have not done the work.
Case in point: I have had some inroads into the ICMA that were -more- disappointing than aikido, in that I READ detailed descriptions from some guys on certain lists, public and private-who sucked in person. They weren't bad...they sucked, they had nothing. They, like so many MA'ers, were approaching their internal arts through forms and movement. But man...they knew everyone and everything and could talk the talk like no bodies business. The guys with real skills still are rare.

Here are two threads where you can see the same sort of empty discussion going on-in a forum that specializes in internal training.

http://emptyflower.com/phpBB3/viewto...82e4b09ea2623f

http://emptyflower.com/phpBB3/viewto...p=28334#p28334

In one of the threads you will read of a bagua guy with some 15 years of training under a grandmaster and hi linage holding student who made a comment I've never forgoten. "I didn't know, that I didn't know." That is a fair assessment of my experience in training Aikido people so far.
If you scan through years of threads on that internal art forum you will see *some* good advice peppered through a ton of nonsense, including the lengthy discussions UFC and Boxing. Again, although you will hear some great writing-all from people who really have no physical understanding of the skills they write so eloquently about. So there, on an internal forum, specializing in these skills? IHTBF comes right back to smack you.

So, people can tell everybody, everything, all the time and teach everybody who shows up with a nickel in their hand. That's none of my business. I just won't be a part.

a) I want to know who I am teaching
b) I at least want to have a commitment to a follow through
c) I have a short list of Aikido people who already intentionally hurt their juniors. I can feign ignorance, teach things to everyone, and let the chips fall where they may, but honestly, I'd rather deck some aikido teachers, instead of showing them how to wreck more people,or at least teach their students how to stop them in their tracks and denf their bodies.

I'd also rather spend more time on a smaller segment of Aikido teachers who will follow through and become the future by reclaiming aikido and making it among the finest, and most powerful arts known.
It is the only way to fulfill Ueshiba's duality.
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Old 09-21-2008, 11:35 AM   #38
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

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Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I agree Bud. Now, who would you be more interested in reading that from? The new guy to it, or the people who have been doing it and teaching it for years and years?
Robb, pretty much anybody that says they're training to be able to do it, I'd like to hear what they're training specifically to do in themselves . . in whatever terminology they can describe (lots of squats, pulling perineum down while straightening spine against a wall, starting with a push to the shoulder, then moving back into the push, etc.). A newbie's perspective can be valuable to others just getting started, while someone that has been doing it and teaching it for years and years should be able to articulate the levels and stages they've reached, ie the checkpoints they've encountered so far . . or heck even be better at just describing the basics . .

Especially since every advanced skill I've seen has required at least a reasonable proficiency at "the basics".
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Old 09-21-2008, 01:30 PM   #39
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Hi Guys,

Just observing the way things are - as opposed to how I might like them to be - or think they should be - it is clear that we are not all in a "club" or organization that dictates and norms our conduct, provides protocols, lists rules of engagement, etc, outside of perhaps Jun and/or other outside limiting commitments we may, or may not, have.

Consequently, we all come here as individuals and are free to participate, or not, in the manner and to the degree of our choosing. Individuals are also free to argue for their particular approach, but that is no guarantee (unless Jun decides otherwise) that others will conform. Still, folks could just vote with their feet.

So there you go. It seems to me that this is a good as it gets on an open board. The web master of a private board can of course do more (choose membership, dictate rules of participation, etc.)

I'm thankful for what I've got . . . and, being human, am always on the lookout for more, more more!

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 09-21-2008, 02:23 PM   #40
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
I'm thankful for what I've got . . . and, being human, am always on the lookout for more, more more!
Ditto for me.
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Old 09-21-2008, 08:12 PM   #41
rob_liberti
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Budd,

The BEST advice I can give you is:
1) ASAP, go to what ever workshops that you can find from Mike, Aukuzawa, Dan, Howard, Toby - that crowd.. I've heard good things about Sam Chin as well.

2) Get your body in good shape. I don't mean you need to run miles, or have huge chest muscles or even be super lean. I just mean find all of the kinks in your body and start working them out. Stretch, get massage, ensure that your bones are lined up - work to eliminate anything that restricts your body's movement. Pay attention to your ability to bring your breath into your ribs, etc. I think Alexander Technique is relevant as well. It won't teach you internal power, but it will certainly help get you a body that has a good chance of doing this kind of stuff.

3) Until you hook up with regular training in this way, if you want it, you can at least read some of the exercises that Robert John posted. Maybe start trying to do those by yourself.

4) You can also start wrestling/judo to build your body awareness and sensitivity.

That is the best advice I can give you other than packing up and moving somewhere like Japan to train with aukuzawa, or near Dan's barn, etc.. (But you might want to get yourself invited to train before you pack your suitcase.)

Rob
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Old 09-21-2008, 08:50 PM   #42
DH
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Hi Rob
Just a heads up. Budd Has been to see Mike, Ark and me. He is also actively training these skills with a group of people in their own dojo.He's also a grappler.
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Old 09-21-2008, 11:09 PM   #43
Toby Threadgill
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
But the point I'd make is that if someone has something that they're contributing to the public community, for instance if they're "showing things" at seminars, I'd feel better if they'd post more on "how-to's".
Hello,

Being a crummy typist this is going to be quite an investment in time.....but here goes.

A few things. I know I've locked horns with Dan and Mike in the past and I still look askance at some of their communication methods. That said, I have no problem with a vast majority of what they are saying concerning internal training. I believe they are very capable martial artists and I have personally heard good things about their teaching from people who have attended their workshops. I have no reason to believe that they do not reflect excellent internal skills and I admire their passion in this arena. The reason I've never really participated in these discussions is, why should I? It seems these discussions are going along fine without my participation. I'm not really interested in tooting my own horn or having my students toot my horn for me. If I had nothing valuable to teach my students (some of them are posting on these very threads) they wouldn't be training with me. That should speak for itself.

I ask the readers here to appreciate that I am a very busy man. Maintaining my own training regimen, teaching my own students and representing TSYR around the globe is quite time intensive. I enjoy my life with my wife in the Rocky Mountains, but my teaching responsibilities often take me away from my home, frequently out of the country. I like to believe that because of my investment in time and effort the Shindo Yoshin Kai is growing steadily without the need for promotion via internet budo infomercials. Because of this, I fail to see what benefit I or the TSYR would realize by entering into frequent and lengthy internet prognostications describing what we do. My responsibility is to Takamura sensei, TSYR and its student base, not the public at large. It's not as if I have an aversion to public discourse, it's just that I have only so many hours in each day and I prefer spending my time in ways that I find pleasant and fulfilling. Internet budo banter just doesn't tickle my fancy like it obviously does for Mike, Dan and many others posting on this subject.

Something I must confess I'm rather uncomfortable with is the idea that anyone should present themselves as the clearing house of expertise on this topic. I suppose it's a good thing that people are talking about internal body training but I also think its problematic when anyone starts appointing themselves as the public arbiters of who's got "it", and who doesn't. Budo is full of mutual masterbation societies so I really hope this "internal budo brotherhood" doesn't go off in that direction. I know that it is inevitable that personalities and skills will be discussed but I would hope these things be kept as positive as possible.

I know that I should be flattered by being identified as one who "gets it" but frankly its a bit discomfiting. I simply do what I do to the best of my abilities, nothing more. I try to improve everyday and still have much to improve on and much to learn from the teachings I received. Whats really flattering to me is being invited to teach with other people I admire and enjoy spending time with, be it the Aiki Expo, the Aiki Summit or now Jun Akiyama's Aikiweb Workshop. So...in celebration of, and for the benefit of Jun's Aikiweb Workshop, I'll make an attempt, probably flawed, to describe the basics of what we do in TSYR related to internal body training.

Please don't bombard me with further questions about advanced specifics. I simply don't have the time to respond to such inquiries. FWIW....I'm working on a book with budo historian Shingo Ohgami in which I intend to cover TSYR's internal training in more detail. So...If you really want more info on the topic of TSYR's internal training, buy the book when it comes out......LOL

So.....

In TSYR our internal training is divided into two categories, the Happo Shinden Nairiki no gyo and Happo Shinden Misogi no gyo. The category exhibiting the most common traits to those being discussed here is the Happo Shinden Nairiki no gyo. The Nairiki no gyo are 8 kata manifesting both an omote and ura version. The omote versions are sotoden, or teachings I'm allowed to demonstrate or teach openly. The ura versions are uchiden, or teachings only demonstrated or taught within the kai membership.

The Nairiki no gyo are solo kata that incorporate specific body movement and physical dynamics required for proper execution of our paired kata. They are both specific and general in their value as a training tool. The omote versions are usually taught in three levels of complexity, starting as simple movement & relaxation, then progressing to include specific structural alignment and finally stressing specific muscular dynamics. In the ura versions, the kata are more complex with much more intricate attention given to relaxation, structural dynamics, muscular dynamics, and finally incorporating breathing methods taught via the recitation of proprietary Shinto prayers.

The most fundamental benefit obtained thru the performance the omote Nairiki no gyo is the cultivation of integrated muscular strengthening. The greater benefit of this type of body training is that it inculcates an integrated form of muscular power rather than one that is sectional or isolated. Modern weight training, especially machine based weight training purposely strengthens muscles in isolation, inhibiting the strengthening of surrounding muscles and other associated structures. Such training also inhibits the realization of coordinated muscular awareness. Without developing the body in an integrated way, isolated strength training makes it more difficult to apply, feel, recognize or resist forces as efficiently as we are capable of. A body trained in the isolated method may look impressive for its aesthetics but it is usually insensitive and weak in some fashion, like a chain that is only as strong as its weakest link.

Another important aspect of our omote kata relates to developing bone structure awareness. Proper structural awareness allows the body to "rest" efficiently on its framework utilizing minimum muscular tension to remain erect. Structural relaxation of the musculature increases body awareness with the goal of increasing levels of internal sensitivity and connection to ones base (ground). Once a practitioner can stand with a truly relaxed body, movement can then be employed in a manner that encourages and reinforces a more efficient relationship between the bone structure and musculature. This creates the sense of having a truly connected body, one that feels and moves in unified harmony. When opposing forces are met by this body it is able to feel and respond in a coordinated manner that is a genuine expression of the body's unified capabilities. When an uncoordinated and unconnected body meets opposing forces, isolated muscular tension is employed, resulting in resistance without a solid or efficient connection to ones base. As a result, one is easily moved or manipulated into a compromised position.

Building upon the previous two concepts, the next benefit of our omote kata relates to creating energy pathways that allow us to re-channel energy away from our center of gravity. This is not mystical clap trap but the utilization of structural alignment and controlled relaxation to rechannel forces so they travel thru our bodies and into our base, making our base stronger and more able to resist opposing forces without the accompanying tension employed in an unconnected body structure. Without the ability to manifest selective relaxation, a unified muscular body and a properly arranged bone structure, effectively utilizing energy pathways is very difficult if not impossible. In a primitive attempt to resist an attacking force the common body attempts to shore up its center of gravity thru the implementation of isolated tension and simple leverage. Unfortunately this provides an energy pathway to the center of gravity and base allowing an adversary to employ primitive strength and weight as determining factors for success.
In short, the idea here is to "touch" your adversary's center without him being able to "touch" yours. When you can do that you are well on your way.

The last thing I'd like to discuss concerns how the the concepts and principles in the solo kata are integrated into our paired kata. Every paired kata in the TSYR mokuroku employs numerous theories found in the solo kata. The solo kata were created to function as "identifiers" or customized training methods that allow the student concentrated access to the specific body skills deemed necessary for successful application of TSYR technique. Some of these principles are obvious while others are hidden deeply inside the kata waiting to be discovered by the student. It is impossible to explain many of these details in written form so they remain kuden or oral teachings, not identified or even alluded to in our densho (teaching scrolls).

So, Mike and Dan, there you go. Basic for sure but now you can't accuse me of being one of those antisocial koryu types hiding behind the veil of mystery budo voodoo.

I look forward to the Aikiweb Workshop in Seattle and hope to meet many of you there. Again, my thanks to Jun Akiyama for the honor of being asked to teach at his event with the likes of George Ledyard and Howard Popkin.

All my best,

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 09-21-2008 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 09-21-2008, 11:38 PM   #44
DH
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Quote:
Something I must confess I'm rather uncomfortable with is the idea that anyone should present themselves as the clearing house of expertise on this topic. I suppose it's a good thing that people are talking about internal body training but I also think its problematic when anyone starts appointing themselves as the public arbiters of who's got "it", and who doesn't. Budo is full of mutual masterbation societies so I really hope this "internal budo brotherhood" doesn't go off in that direction. I know that it is inevitable that personalities and skills will be discussed but I would hope these things be kept as positive as possible.
Hi Toby
I think your missed the point in a couple of places. There is no Mike and Dan. Mike barely tolerates me.
Also, if you go back and read there is no one offering or willing to be an arbiter for judging everyone. It's more honest than that. If you take the time to read, everyone is travelling and making their own own judgments, and finding a method that best suits them. Your comment was a bit out of place in what -most everyone's- goals are.

All that said, as we discussed there is a specific way to train the body outside of all kata and form that developes power in all movement. It is a substantial and worthwhile body of work. From there, a body of skills to use that conditioned body- that at least in my experience is proving to be pretty damn universal in application. Again with no one...not one- claiming either expertise or being an arbiter.
It's more of a workshop idea, with those searching doing the judging.

Time for bed for me.

Last edited by DH : 09-21-2008 at 11:50 PM.
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Old 09-22-2008, 12:03 AM   #45
DH
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

One other quick thought to close this out.
There is no "internal budo club" either. Everyone I know training this way is staying in their own art. And it is a staggeringly divergent spread of arts. And they make their own assessments based on training with several people teaching internal power from divergent backgrounds themselves. The guys doing the research are themselves, many times substantial, experienced and very jaded men, not prone to accepting someones B.S.-your's, mine, or others, being judged for their search choices in their budo, nor being a part of someone's "club."

I think in five years or so, they will just become powerful so and so's in whatever it is they are teaching. It's all about them, it's all about the arts. More specifically to help those that do not have access to this type of training within their arts. Not surprisingly, they are being noticed by their own teachers in a very short time span.

So, I look past some minor squabbles here and there to the hundreds who are greatful and benefiting from skills that were not availible to them in their arts (for various reasons).Then, I look past them -at more modern grappling arts putting down many Traditional budo styles-myself included. I think this movement will be a resurgence of power and true ability in more traditional forms of budo, and I think that's a good thing.
.

Last edited by DH : 09-22-2008 at 12:18 AM.
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Old 09-22-2008, 12:28 AM   #46
Toby Threadgill
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Toby
I think your missed the point in a couple of places. There is no Mike and Dan. Mike barely tolerates me.
LOL.... I didn't mean to imply you guys were married or anything, just that you've both publicly asked me to expound on the topic at hand in previous discussions.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Also, if you go back and read there is no one offering or willing to be an arbiter for judging everyone. It's more honest than that. If you take the time to read, everyone is travelling and making their own own judgments, and finding a method that best suits them. Your comment was a bit out of place in what -most everyone's- goals are.
I apologize as I may not have been clear. I did not mean to imply that anyone intended to represent themselves as the arbiter of truth on this topic but that it might be wise to exercise caution when evaluating someone who's expertise is unknown to avoid such interpretation. The second I was mentioned as one who's "got it" on this thread I started recieving e-mails and phone calls asking "What happened? Did Dan and you get together?" It made me laugh out loud.....So whether you realize it or not, some readers do consider you guys arbiters of who's got "it". That may not be fair or your intention, but there you go......

I'm not trying to condemn anyone but just suggesting caution.

All my best,

Toby
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Old 09-22-2008, 12:35 AM   #47
DH
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Hah!
Well look at it this way...when I mentioned you and Howard, I also suggested people go and feel and test various teachers ( in my best magnanimous tone- also see post #7for my suggestions of some budo fun) so they can at least... write them off and disclude them from the "list"!! hah!
We give out secret decoder rings at the door to these events. You send me one of your's- I'll send one of mine.

Seriously though-that was funny. I expect-as it is 2:30 am here- I will be getting the same emails and phone calls. Oy!

I'm going to bed..........see ya.

Last edited by DH : 09-22-2008 at 12:45 AM.
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Old 09-22-2008, 08:29 AM   #48
Budd
 
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Hi Rob,

I don't have any beef with your bits of advice for pretty much ANY martial artist, but . . for someone that's talking about how they're training internals . . I'm more curious as to what that person is doing than the general "You should do this" . . . advice. Even if it's just working the basics and sure, I'm sensitive to things that are considered private . . but if we're looking at "the basics" as the common ground, then maybe some discussion around what those are could be good, also.

Budd

As Dan mentioned, I'm kinda working on this stuff, too . . but I figure I need to get a bit better at it before i say too much publicly about it . .

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Budd,

The BEST advice I can give you is:
1) ASAP, go to what ever workshops that you can find from Mike, Aukuzawa, Dan, Howard, Toby - that crowd.. I've heard good things about Sam Chin as well.

2) Get your body in good shape. I don't mean you need to run miles, or have huge chest muscles or even be super lean. I just mean find all of the kinks in your body and start working them out. Stretch, get massage, ensure that your bones are lined up - work to eliminate anything that restricts your body's movement. Pay attention to your ability to bring your breath into your ribs, etc. I think Alexander Technique is relevant as well. It won't teach you internal power, but it will certainly help get you a body that has a good chance of doing this kind of stuff.

3) Until you hook up with regular training in this way, if you want it, you can at least read some of the exercises that Robert John posted. Maybe start trying to do those by yourself.

4) You can also start wrestling/judo to build your body awareness and sensitivity.

That is the best advice I can give you other than packing up and moving somewhere like Japan to train with aukuzawa, or near Dan's barn, etc.. (But you might want to get yourself invited to train before you pack your suitcase.)

Rob
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Old 09-22-2008, 08:53 AM   #49
Budd
 
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Hi Dan,

I had a great time with you and yours at your barn that July afternoon (damn is it more than a year already?).

Just a clarification, though . . I have not gotten to meet Ark, yet. Sadly, I was not able to attend his visit to the NOVA dojo this past year. Hoping I can catch him next time around.

Best/Budd

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Rob
Just a heads up. Budd Has been to see Mike, Ark and me. He is also actively training these skills with a group of people in their own dojo.He's also a grappler.
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Old 09-22-2008, 09:37 AM   #50
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Toby, that was a great exposition there. Very interesting to see how that all relates to Akuzawa sensei's teachings of the basics---the bone structure and unified musculature for one thing in the basic exercises and movements/kata, and then the generation of different paths in the body (which none of us are really concerned with at our level yet).

Regards, Gernot
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