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Old 09-14-2008, 02:09 PM   #26
Aikibu
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Re: The "real" techniques not taught to everyone?

OOOP's I apologize to Mark and those who may have misinterpreted my Gaijin comment.

What I really meant was....Well I think Threadgill Sensei put it best.

On another note It's VERY refreshing to see real DR Folks commenting on real DR.

William Hazen
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Old 09-14-2008, 02:42 PM   #27
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: The "real" techniques not taught to everyone?

Quote:
Shany Golan wrote: View Post
So if we're not learning "secret" techniques or not even going to learn them what secret do you think ueshiba took with him to his grave than ?
That it isn't a secret.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 09-14-2008, 03:38 PM   #28
Wagnerphysed
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Re: The "real" techniques not taught to everyone?

Mark, here is the statement you made that I was responding to. Maybe I just confused your use of pronouns?

Quote:
IMO, you would almost have to work with other Daito ryu groups to see exactly what they can do. If not, then you only have your own school to judge by.
As far as training goes, come by anytime. Chris and I train in Baltimore MD...more like Rosedale, MD. We rent space from the head teacher of Baltimore Brazilian JiuJuitsu. He's a great guy and a good grappler as well.

You can PM me for more details if you're serious.
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Old 09-15-2008, 09:49 AM   #29
MM
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Re: The "real" techniques not taught to everyone?

Quote:
Brian Wagner wrote: View Post
Mark, here is the statement you made that I was responding to. Maybe I just confused your use of pronouns?

As far as training goes, come by anytime. Chris and I train in Baltimore MD...more like Rosedale, MD. We rent space from the head teacher of Baltimore Brazilian JiuJuitsu. He's a great guy and a good grappler as well.

You can PM me for more details if you're serious.
Sorry, I meant "you" in the plural sense. English sometimes isn't clear. Wasn't referring to you directly.

Not sure when I'll be in the area, but thanks ahead of time. Baltimore isn't too far away and I have other people in the area that I can visit.
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Old 09-15-2008, 11:24 AM   #30
DH
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Re: The "real" techniques not taught to everyone?

Mark
I cannot encourage you and all the guys in the area enough to go visit the Daito ryu guys in Baltimore and train with them. Just like I recommended training with Kiyama, Goldberg, Okomoto and Howard.
I'd encourage Jim S, dojo to call them up and have them come to the dojo and do a demo or go to them.
Ask them to demonstrate aiki. Those that can, come back and write about your experiences, and comparisons with Mike, Ark, Rob, Me, Howard, and now Toby with Dsito ryu's mainline group in Baltimore.

It's never enough to read about people. Go visit and test. Ask them to demonstrate aik or internal power and the things discussed here. Aikiweb has been pivitol in that an ever growing populace have gone to train with a wide diversity of Aikido and Daito ryu top teachers who claim to teach *aiki* that master class skills that so many are pusuing. Now ther search is including Koryu teachers.
Having been given a venue to discuss and compare, much information has now been passed around to either vet or write-off people who either have no power, or do but can't or won't teach it, particulalry those who think they do and clearly don't.

I would futher encourage that where you can go test the Master level teachers of the local teachers. Go feel them and what they purport to be able to do.
As it was in the old days, men vetted teachers and their methods, in private discussions and then in the early magazine days.There were some truly colorful guys who got tested by some of our early legends in the art and then wrote about. Other stories remained couched in various versions-such a Wang chu shins famous visit to Draegers house, and all the reultant hubbub with Chiba etc. Informed people are the best people to talk with.

For the guys who have met and tested some substantial teachers from all walks who say they know "aiki" I encourage them to go and feel "aiki' from one branch of an art defined by that very name. One that is a direct link to Takeda through his own son. Then share how that experience compared with the version of aikido that came through Ueshiba's son.
I think we have all benefited from the dozens of twenty to forty year *aiki* budo men who have gotten out to train and test to find aiki power where and in whom it may reside.
It's the budo thing to do.
It's a long way from those early word of mouth days, but the method still hold true.

Last edited by DH : 09-15-2008 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 09-16-2008, 01:56 PM   #31
W^2
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Re: The "real" techniques not taught to everyone?

There are a lot of perspectives regarding the topic of this thread which haven't been discussed: The cultural perspectives of the west vs. east, the responsibilities of a Soke vs. the responsibilities of a student, and finally, imposing a dichotomy on an issue and rationalizing it without exploring other perspectives.

The so-called 'western' mindset views teaching much differently than the so-called 'eastern' mindset. In the west we expect to have everything given to us by the teacher -- we unconsciously believe that this is the teachers responsibility to fulfill. However, the student has the responsibility to learn, and no amount of teaching will change this varying ability of a masters students to respond to the teachings of a ryu.

A master looks for one student who is capable of living up to the responsibility of Soke, and passes on the knowledge of the ryu to ensure its survival. This may be done in secret to protect the traditions of the ryu, hence explaining why some have been admonished to hide their knowledge until they have passed it on.

As a side note, there are things which we learn as martial artists that can't be written about; they are beyond technique. There are also things which can't be taught. This is the responsibility of the student.

Many are shown the same technique, and many do not understand it, but a fraction do. It isn't that different from the statistics regarding what percentage of students achieve a dan rank, where applicable, and those that continue to deeper levels of training. This is the responsibility of the student.

Best,

Ward
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Old 09-16-2008, 03:04 PM   #32
Shany
 
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Re: The "real" techniques not taught to everyone?

"Real" techniques are born every time you practice takemusu. It's up you to polish them just like you polish your spirit when you are training.

A good stance and posture reflects a proper state of mind
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Old 09-16-2008, 09:38 PM   #33
DH
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Re: The "real" techniques not taught to everyone?

Quote:
IMO, you would almost have to work with other Daito ryu groups to see exactly what they can do. If not, then you only have your own school to judge by.
I think you would have to do more than that. I think you have to feel their head teachers. So go do so. If you ask around you are going to be able to talk with guys you know -try right here-some of significant rank if that matters to you, who have trained with some, and others all of the top dogs in all the branches of DR, and you will hear some interesting stories.

Interestingly enough they're like aikido in that they are on a self admitted looong training curve to get what they call "high level skills" that take a long time to get.
So, go test their highest level guys, see just what they can deliver- and if your interested in that stuff-ask yourself if what you felt-is worth the trip.
Come back and share your experiences like other folks have about Howard.
In the end, I don't think you're going to find anything at all to make you change or alter what you are doing in anyway, but the only way to really know...is to go.

Last edited by DH : 09-16-2008 at 09:47 PM.
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Old 10-01-2008, 07:37 AM   #34
DH
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Re: The "real" techniques not taught to everyone?

From an interview with Kondo
And a repson I made at Aikido Journal where severl students tried to defend / explain whatever, once again, this behaviour
Quote:
Quote:
Art of Deception

Tokimune Takeda included in his lessons Aiki-Kempo, the Kendo kata, Ono-Hatto-Ryu and other techniques that had no relationship to Daito-Ryu-Jujutsu in order to avoid teaching Daito-Ryu techniques. With something that is as basic as the Ikkajo series, he would modify the techniques so most students would never understand them. When he taught Ono-Hatto-Ryu--which involves cutting from a middle position to a high position and cutting through the person's entire body by putting all the power into the tip of the sword--he would explain it differently from Daito-Ryu techniques. I had a question about this difference, and until that point, no one had asked him, I said, "Sensei, the things you are saying about the sword and Daito-Ryu techniques are different."

He was waiting for someone to question him. Tokimune would teach each person based on the level of the questions he asked. I learned at a higher level because of the questions I always asked. As a result of questioning him, he awarded me a kyoju dairi teaching certification in 1974, when I was 29.

The Daitokan Dojo in Hokkaido would hold a yearly training event for all Daito-Ryu Dojo in Japan. I would teach one group, and Tokimune would teach the other. The night before, I would ask him if I could teach the correct way of doing the techniques instead of not letting them know the right way. Tokimune would say, "No, teach it so they will not know or understand the right way of the techniques."

-- Katsuyuki Kondo
Interesting isn't it?
There are some great men and teachers in this art. And there are some teachers with serous issues –who I am delighted to say, are getting increasingly well known.

I can not properly do justice and express some of the outrage, and at other times hilarious humor, some teachers –both koryu and gendai- have expressed at reading some of these more recently revealed comments of Kondo’s and Tokimune’s-and other teachers in Daito ryu. Most had never heard such outrageous arrogance and utter lack of concern for students -who trusted them- stated in such an off-handed manner. Add to this the backdrop- that after screwing them for decades- to now somehow blame it - ON THEM-and then "publicly"...publicly no less...let the budo world know they were played for fools.
I’ll let these students here try to keep defending and explaining away these statements to all of us- who supposedly don’t understand Koryu, Daito ryu or teaching models and need it explained to us. The fact that these...students feel a need to "explain it" to some of the teachers I know who are disgusted by it, has led to some hilarious phone calls and letters. If I had to make a choice, I am happy to be associated with those in Budo who look down their noses at this stuff. It smells.

You might want to review that these statements help explain what happened to the poor guys who trained with Tokimune for decades. Why the Seishinkai looked and felt the way they did and why Kondo felt so different. Then review how these guys defended (for years and years now) why Kondo WAS indeed trained different, and thus deserved his post, then came on to flip flop and defend how both Kondo and the seishinkai were all given the same training. Then flip flop again to say..."Well it actually was different, but really all the same because Kondo asked- he was taught the same, different stuff, the same...just all differently!!
Then, flip flop again to try to explain Kondo and Tokimune’s blatant and obvious statements away, as something none of us are capable of understanding.
I don’t really care, other than to have anyone interested in joining please take care and review all the public statements. Then do what you want.

Two things are a great step forward.
a) That teachers, in the art have made their opinions and actions publicly known in books, interviews and in person
b) That students who would defend it have identified themselves and made themselves and their opinions well known to potential students who might form a relationship with them and their teachers. Ask yourself if you really need to have those statements “explained” to you too?
No other work need be done, nothing more need be said.

I continue to encourage people to dig around. You need to find out and do your own work and research about these people and this art. Start with some of the most well known and highest ranked people they can think of in Budo-outside of Daito ryu. You don’t have to go very far. You might get some opinions about where to go and where not to go.
Then, if you’re still interested I strongly encourage you to go feel them, and more importantly their students of five…ten…and fifteen years. Then ask around about some alternate training. It's the best way to figure out who you're going to be trusting with "your" time.

If they begin with.. "See this isn't really how it sounds It's different now and what he meant to really think to say that you misunderstood because you’re not capable of understanding is….." Keep walking.

Last edited by DH : 10-01-2008 at 07:43 AM.
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Old 10-02-2008, 06:46 PM   #35
DH
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Re: The "real" techniques not taught to everyone?

I found this to be interesting and on point, and very familiar.

Quote:
In the 40 or so years that I have been doing CMA, I have seen many approaches to teaching and learning traditional Chinese martial arts. The more I see, the more I appreciate the very traditional manner in which I was taught. Every highly skilled teacher I have had has taught the same way - and i believe with good reason. My first teacher, Henry Leung, taught me his family style of proto Wing Chun. I learned from him every night in the basement of his restaurant. The first month consisited of nothing but stance work and very basic hand movements. Sifu Leung would correct me regularly throughout the night, but mostlly it was solitary work to get stance strength w/ quality of strength (springy yet strong), alignment, and mechanics (song kua, center in the area below the groin, relaxed shoulder, hip and akle joints etc). Sifu Leung would only add a movement or a concept if he felt I demonstrated sufficient grasp of what he taught me up to that point. Progress was slow, methodical, and painful. Sometimes other new students would come, and soon be doing applications. I felt like I was missing out, and asked Sifu about it. He told me "never mind them. Don't pay it any attention. You do your work". That was not terribly stisfying, but I did as he said. Later I relized that although the other students had learned lots of techniques, their skills existed from the shoulders on out - they did not have the foundation skills. Why did Sifu Leung teach them this way? Basically, he was giving them what they wanted (demanded in a sense). He, like most teachers, separated students (in his mind and teaching) into students and customers. The customers would come and go, and would not have either the intellectual capability or patience to do the real work. They would leave happy with what they got (basically a bag of tricks) and were not even aware that there was another world of depth and skill to be learned - the real art, the real kung fu.

This process was repeated with most of my teachers. When I learned from Master Zhang Jun Feng and his wife Xu Baomei, it was the same. Master and Mrs. Zhang would have me training skill (liangong) while others were working on applications. Again, I would ask, and be told (generally in somewhat hushed tones) "just work on what you are doing. You can learn that any time. This is more important now".
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Old 10-03-2008, 07:43 AM   #36
dbotari
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Re: The "real" techniques not taught to everyone?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I found this to be interesting and on point, and very familiar.
Dan,

The quote you posted... Who is that attributed to? I found it very insightful and it resonated with me. I'd like to read/know more.

Thanks,

Dan
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Old 10-03-2008, 10:03 AM   #37
DH
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Re: The "real" techniques not taught to everyone?

Hi Dan

http://emptyflower.com/phpBB3/viewto...5b91906e11ea4c

You might want to note that many of the answers in response don't ever really reach the level of any measure of a response of "shared experience" type answer. I think many of the responders in the thread...reflect the same answers so many others who spent all that time "learning technique" would give. Therefore they really don't know how to answer a guy who spent that time period learning real martial power.

I am not advocating what the guy learned was real or not, I don't know the guy. I just found his experiences interesting and relevant to the discussion here.
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