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Old 09-08-2008, 07:55 PM   #51
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
What was the point of this thread again???

Sorry.
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:34 AM   #52
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Thanks!

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYX1vthSrnI
This was a GI submission fight I did as a blue belt about 4 years ago.
Thanks for sharing. Very interesting. I was much more impressed by your work in the match, than your opponents. The other guy just remained on the ground, waiting for your initiatives. In many martial arts, that would be judged as passivity.

I admire your principle of wanting to get up, and I am sure that it's correct strategic thinking. It is also a choice that makes for better adaptivity to a wider variety of match rules.

Quite interesting also to see your use of sankyo and ikkyo. Have you also tried other aikido techniques in grappling - such as nikyo, kotegaeshi, or any of the aikido end pinnings?

Again, many thanks for sharing the video and your enlightening comments on it.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
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Old 09-09-2008, 06:47 PM   #53
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Stefan,

Thanks of the kind comments. Yes, Grappling is a sport, so it was a beneficial strategy to for him to remain on the ground. As mentioned many times before, as long as we keep thing is the right perspective, there is much that can be learned from grappling.

It also begs the question about "what is effective?" It really does depend on the situation. I'd agree in many respects I was successful as I "dominated" the guy sort of for 6 minutes without him submitting me and broke free several times, and could have walked away.

However, if my job as to subdue him to prevent some other harm, or to arrest him...would I have fell short?

Hard to say, but that is why I believe it is important to train with various endstates in mind.

Other techniques?

Pulled a kotegaeshi the other day from a lapel grab. It usually only works once and then the are on to you. It does good at establishing kuzushi from standing.

Also I do a modified wristlock, nikkyo ALOT especially standing when pummelling, from the mount, and from side control. I grab that alot when doing arm bars as well.

The key to doing them though is proper control of dominant position, or hip control. If you don't have it, they won't work very well for a submission.

This video outlines that pretty darn good.

Thanks Again.

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Old 09-10-2008, 01:26 AM   #54
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Hip control

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
The key to doing them though is proper control of dominant position, or hip control. If you don't have it, they won't work very well for a submission.
I'm not sure that I understand what you mean, so please elaborate. Do you refer to the break-balance entry, where the opponent is removed from a position/posture where the hips give maximum support for movement of other parts of the body?

If so, I'd say that this is essential in any application of aikido techniques, and not just in grappling. Would you agree?

Very interesting to learn that you find frequent use for nikyo. That was my guess, which is why I mentioned it first.

Another question: Aikido end pinnings are almost always with uke belly down on the floor, and not on his or her back. Is that pointless in grappling, or next to impossible to accomplish?

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 09-10-2008, 03:57 AM   #55
Aristeia
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

not Kevin, but here's my two cents.
Occassionally I'll catch an aikidoesque pin, face down controlling the arm vertically. Never on anyone with decent experience - even if I get the position they generally roll out before I can lock it in. Part of that is I think to do with their ooda loop - groundfighting is predicated on rolling your body around, twisting it in and out of good and bad positions. Where as standing there is a possiblity perhaps to get more advanced on the pin while they still think it's a standup game. who knows.

I will say though that the BJJ move known as omoplatata is pretty much an aikidoesque pin - the key difference being that it is done with your legs pinning their shoulder, not your arms - which in actual fact frees the arms up to control the hips and prevent the rollout.

FWIW

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-10-2008, 08:14 AM   #56
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

"Control of hips" is a wide open subject. I will discuss more on it later as I have time. But, essentially Fooks covers it well. Yea, OODA loop getting inside or ahead is what is key. I'd say the stuff I did in the video was an attempt to disrupt his OODA loop. Never got ahead of it though, we were pretty neutral i'd say.

Aikido pins vs JJ pins?

Well again, perspective and assumptions are all a big part of "what really works".

What works in Comp JJ effectively doesn't always translate well to street and vice versa.

I think the best thing in the world is Knee on Belly or Knee on Back. Good control position and you have mobility.

Comp JJ is not concerned about mobility so much as submitting them. There are tradeoffs I think between mobility/flexibility (the ability to adapt or deal with Mulitiple Opponents) and your ability to control/submit.

Finding the balance is key.

I think having your opponent facedown is always preferable than face up. Again, rules and situation dictate.

good discussion.

I will talk about more later tonight.

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Old 09-10-2008, 09:14 AM   #57
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
I will say though that the BJJ move known as omoplatata is pretty much an aikidoesque pin - the key difference being that it is done with your legs pinning their shoulder, not your arms - which in actual fact frees the arms up to control the hips and prevent the rollout.
FWIW
I will say though that the BJJ move known as omoplatata is pretty much a daito-esque pin more in line with imobilizing the shoulder with your bodyweight (through the leg intitially but "fixing it" in place with body weight transfer) where the person cannot change his postion to undo it.
Where as in many aikido stand-up locks the body is not based, therefore most can be reversed with relative ease. So as a cogent strategy I wouldn't see an aikido connection in it at all.
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:30 AM   #58
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Where as in many aikido stand-up locks the body is not based, therefore most can be reversed with relative ease. So as a cogent strategy I wouldn't see an aikido connection in it at all.
I was thinking more of the seated pins - while not having the same bodyweight aplied as omo - they do offer more stability and focus on the shoulder.

Kevin - totally agree about the knee ride - I think it's one of the most under utilised positions in BJJ given its usefulness for non comp applications. Remember a few years ago we had a gasshuku - Moriteru Ueshiba and came over with a few others. Arai Sensei became my firm favourite the minute I saw him drop to a back ride after a particular technique...

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-10-2008, 12:56 PM   #59
DonMagee
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

I LOVE knee riding people. Knee on belly, knee on back, knee on neck, it doesn't matter, I love it!

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:03 PM   #60
DH
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

While I agree with the knee-particularly on the neck- I think side mount with elbow, and then...a knee "in the head" is a wonderful case for brain acceleration and the guy going nu-nights.

Last edited by DH : 09-10-2008 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 09-10-2008, 04:31 PM   #61
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Dan Harden wrote:

Quote:
Where as in many aikido stand-up locks the body is not based, therefore most can be reversed with relative ease. So as a cogent strategy I wouldn't see an aikido connection in it at all.
can you explain a little more about "as a cogent strategy I wouldn't see an aikido connection in it at all."

I don't understand.

Thanks Dan.

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