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Old 09-10-2008, 11:30 AM   #176
rob_liberti
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

I think windings are torque related, I just don't think that is all there is to it, and I don't see the value in the relationship that is relatively clear to me.

I certainly recognize the torsion tube model in each of my leg attachment(s) to my truck given that I am practicing complimentary antagonistic mental intentions for "windings" that seem to move and stabilize my fascia. I just do not recognize how that is at all helpful. To me is it is just some ancillary point that has no value in helping me perform better as a student or a teacher. But, to each his own.

Honestly, I would continue to describe them in the less scientific way that has been proven to be the most effective way of learning and teaching to every single person involved with this stuff.

Rob
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Old 09-10-2008, 12:36 PM   #177
DH
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Well I would see it from my feet to my hand-through my body. And the antagonsitic effect both by and on living tissue is another whole study. The bodies living tissue acting as a spring does not relate to a model of a simple-alloy spring steel under load while fixed. It is much more complex.
Again, though, look if we have no one, not one, none...willing to state person a. or b. can do what we do or are after. Then I for one could care less about their opinions and views. I might as well ask the TKD guy at the mall what he thinks, or two of my PHD engineers who have known me for years and are at a loss to explain it. And even if they could? I still wouldn't care all that much. Their understanding, in the end, would have gained them and me........zero.

I'm all about actuall skills, real and whole. And those able to teach them. Not people who can't do anything, wanting to "talk shop" as if they can.
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Old 09-10-2008, 02:28 PM   #178
Allen Beebe
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

hmmm . . . this got me to thinking . . .

If one could come up with accurate models (keeping in mind that an explanation (model) is not the thing itself) of all of the precise functions that comprise all of "this" wouldn't these models potentially be useful in extrapolating other potential uses, applications, enhancements and teaching of "this?"

For example most folks can run, some can run better than others, even the best runners can be made to run even better by folks that have figured out how to best to facilitate that via the scientific study of the subject (physical and mental) and the knowledge base continues to grow.

So I'm suggesting that one ought not throw the baby out with the bath water. Still, a runner is ultimately measured by their running and a coach is measured by the positive change that they bring to their subjects. I'm just saying that it makes sense to me that both parties can potentially profit from a greater understanding and more accurate modeling of what they are trying to achieve.

I think it is pretty clear that the Chinese tried to come up with models to describe this phenomena and it seems clear that that knowledge base was built upon from generation to generation. Why should we be any different?

BTW I don't dispute that it doesn't take an electrical engineer to teach someone to flick a light switch. But it does take an electrical engineer (or someone incredibly persistent, structured and intelligent i.e. Thomas Edison) to use electricity in increasingly complex, diverse and refined ways.

Just thinkin . . .

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 09-10-2008, 03:01 PM   #179
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
I think it is pretty clear that the Chinese tried to come up with models to describe this phenomena and it seems clear that that knowledge base was built upon from generation to generation. Why should we be any different?
I'm with you on this Allen. I'm currently studying Cheng Tzu's Thirteen Treatises on T'ai Chi Ch'uan and learning alot from it. Not to say that I can do any of it but I think I know more about it now than I did before I began studying the words. Why not try to codify this 'stuff?'
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Old 09-10-2008, 03:17 PM   #180
Erick Mead
 
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
hmmm . . . this got me to thinking . . .
If one could come up with accurate models (keeping in mind that an explanation (model) is not the thing itself) of all of the precise functions that comprise all of "this" wouldn't these models potentially be useful in extrapolating other potential uses, applications, enhancements and teaching of "this?"

For example most folks can run, some can run better than others, even the best runners can be made to run even better by folks that have figured out how to best to facilitate that via the scientific study of the subject (physical and mental) and the knowledge base continues to grow.

So I'm suggesting that one ought not throw the baby out with the bath water. Still, a runner is ultimately measured by their running and a coach is measured by the positive change that they bring to their subjects. I'm just saying that it makes sense to me that both parties can potentially profit from a greater understanding and more accurate modeling of what they are trying to achieve.
I wonder if anyone will start taking a stab at that. http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/but-why-7854/

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Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
I think it is pretty clear that the Chinese tried to come up with models to describe this phenomena and it seems clear that that knowledge base was built upon from generation to generation. Why should we be any different?
Because we don't have to start over -- we can crib from their notes. Their system is very good, but very different from ours -- While it is empirical it is not quantitative, but it can be mapped onto our understandings of energy and mechanics with only slightly variant choices of conventions used in our system. Try reading Miura Baien.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 09-10-2008 at 03:26 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-10-2008, 03:23 PM   #181
rob_liberti
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Until I see that kind of effort produce 1 thing I can't get better and faster by my current method, I'm not going to put much time into it other than to be polite and inclusive.
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Old 09-10-2008, 05:15 PM   #182
Allen Beebe
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Until I see that kind of effort produce 1 thing I can't get better and faster by my current method, I'm not going to put much time into it other than to be polite and inclusive.
Rob,

I think I can understand your sentiment and possibly your reasoning as well. I'm not going to put much time into advancing rocket science until I learn the rudimentary skills required to produce a rocket (and many other things.) And if the method I'm using to produce those rudimentary skills is working for me, I'm unlikely to "change horses in the middle of a stream." I will, on the other hand, avail myself of whatever means seem to produce the best results for learning those skills and will work to not prejudice myself against their being a different and possibly better way. Your personal story seems to indicate that you, in the end, follow a similar approach.

I think it is important to keep in mind that when you say "my current method" you are probably referring to a set of experiences and conceptions which you "have" but were probably shared with you by somebody(s) via, verbal, and physical models, some of which were possibly codified into "forms" (i.e. shikko is a "form" the Aiki isn't) to expedite the transmission of that knowledge (experience and conceptions.)

So it seems to me, in a very pertinent way, when you ask "What Aikido waza best trains aiki . . . do," you you are asking others to proffer a waza that can "produce 1 thing you can't get better and faster by your current method" while also stating, "I'm not going to put much time into it other than to be polite and inclusive."

It also seems to me that in order to satisfy your request, one needs to understand what makes your "current method" tick if they are going to be able to transfer that knowledge in another form or perhaps enhance it.

It's a tall order likely only capable of being answered by a few individuals with the necessary experience and knowledge of the subject matter, the ability to conceptualize and communicate that experience and knowledge, the ability to manipulate and/or reframe that conceptualization and communication, and the willingness to do so . . . publicly.

still, just thinkin!

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 09-10-2008, 05:33 PM   #183
rob_liberti
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

My current method consists of 3 or 4 aspects:

1) learning aiki directly at Dan's barn as well as
2) practicing internal power solo exercises at home as well as
3) practicing internal power solo exercises before the aikido classes I am teaching as well as
4) applying the body positions I am practicing in the solo exercises for training internal power as well as the paired exercises for training internal skill and aiki to some of the waza I teach in my aikido class.

This thread was looking for some help in #4 because I think a transition from what we used to do to what I mainly do now is important for my students as well as myself.

I'm not going to believe that someone else can get where I am (and where I am going) by means of studying applied physics (or really any other method) until they - using their method - produce themselves and students with good strong aiki for anyone to go check out.

That's all I meant...

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 09-10-2008 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 09-10-2008, 05:38 PM   #184
Erick Mead
 
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Until I see that kind of effort produce 1 thing I can't get better and faster by my current method, I'm not going to put much time into it other than to be polite and inclusive.
I can't -- and won't -- judge, but when you feel up to it show the difference between what you formerly believed lacking and what you presently believe you are achieving. That aspect has not really been attempted by anyone, to my knowledge on this topic, and it need not be a bash and brag effort to be good and useful. Mark Murray has done his own in a different way, and not b & b either, but not comparative. His efforts are instructive as to where he is and what he is doing from that perspective. But he is definitively partisan (not a fault, just an observation) whereas you are enthusiastic but still at arms length. I would be curious to see what you would show the difference to be -- in the form of waza, since we are on the topic -- between your former understanding or action and what you see yourself coming to now.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-10-2008, 06:08 PM   #185
Allen Beebe
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I'm not going to believe that someone else can get where I am (and where I am going) by means of studying applied physics (or really any other method) until they - using their method - produce themselves and students with good strong aiki for anyone to go check out.

That's all I meant...
Allen wrote: "Still, a runner is ultimately measured by their running and a coach is measured by the positive change that they bring to their subjects.

I think we are on the same page and opinion Rob.

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
4) applying the body positions I am practicing in the solo exercises for training internal power as well as the paired exercises for training internal skill and aiki to some of the waza I teach in my aikido class.

This thread was looking for some help in #4 because I think a transition from what we used to do to what I mainly do now is important for my students as well as myself.
Yes. Don't you think that your inquiry assumes knowledge of "applying the body positions I am practicing in the solo exercises for training internal power as well as the paired exercises for training internal skill and aiki"? As well as "the waza I teach in my aikido class." And calls for the a level of understanding and mastery of both that can produce the *verifiable* result that you request?

I can't imagine someone NOT knowing what you are talking about being capable of delivering the relevant, demonstrable, reproducible results that you desire.

My only point, if I had a point . . . really I was just brain storming, was that if one can DO or can get others to DO, the better they are at conceptualizing and modeling what it is that they DO or teach others to DO the better they will be a both teaching *that* and possibly improving *that.*

For clarity's sake, I'm not disputing or discouraging you Rob. I just think that what you are asking is a tall order probably only to be filled by a few folks. I also hope that those with *it* continue to understand *it* and try to improve ways to use *it* and how to teach *it.*

It popped into my mind just now, isn't this something that Sagawa used to say? That we must always be thinking about *it* and we must never be satisfied with your present level and understanding?

Makes sense to me if one wants to continue to improve and grow.

Of course I'm preaching to the choir. I don't hear about any body with *it* diminishing in ability . . .

. . . so I'll just go back to thinkin!


~ Allen Beebe
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Old 09-10-2008, 06:52 PM   #186
rob_liberti
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

I'm not sure how I could display the difference on a video per se.

I can do a basic waza the normal way (you know my mad basic waza skillz!), and then do the same waza using internal skills and stop in the middle of the waza for someone to come up and push on my chest at each step.

Other than that, it would be difficult to "show" without someone there to feel it.
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Old 09-11-2008, 03:32 PM   #187
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Hi Rob,

I'm no rocket scientist or anything, but here's an idea. Perhaps you should take an aikido-like subset of a jujutsu system which is known to be complementary with aiki... I dunno, maybe something ummmmm daito-ryu? Itcan be jujutsu, it can be peppered with aiki and drastically different as folks get diferent skills. At least there's something to hang your hat on in the beginning besides silly clothes and role-playing.

If you view the different dR schools as being on a pure jujutsu to pure aiki continuom, perhaps a corriculum would become apparent if you place yourself on that scale and then work your teaching around it.

I ca see always drilling the basic internal body skills followed by teaching something from each side of the scale.

I am relatively sure there are things which are arguably aikido-looking without falling prey to the typical aikido failings which ould get in the way of learning aiki...

Joel
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Old 09-11-2008, 03:57 PM   #188
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Rob's right. Look at this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmiUhdoUHbI

So, really, what can you tell from the vid?

Okay, maybe a couple of things. I suck at this stuff but I make up for it by being dashingly handsome.

Seriously, it looks like the uke just threw himself down.
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Old 09-12-2008, 09:24 AM   #189
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Seriously, it looks like the uke just threw himself down.
That's a pretty decent vid Mark, but I wouldn't describe what's happening there like that, personally I find that description a real mental stumbling block for Aikido folks to get at real aiki. Dood did not throw himself, he was definitely manipulated and thrown.

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Old 09-12-2008, 10:17 AM   #190
DH
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

hmmm
Showing it done slowly is usually even more telling. I did something like it the other night showing the degrading of skill from a DR waza to the eventual big body turn tenkan from a wrist grab. In slow motion movement the uke's postural collapse makes the connection and your structure more obvious. Particularly when you barel move and their body starts to collapse
While I am no fan of that type of stuff-it helps you feel the effect of your intent on your own body and then theirs- in motion
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