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Old 09-02-2008, 05:29 PM   #51
Howard Popkin
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Kirk to Spock - "Its been two hours, you ready ? "

"Right on schedule Captain "

Howard
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Old 09-02-2008, 06:36 PM   #52
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

There are some good examples of aiki in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyhhFzE5O5U

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Old 09-02-2008, 07:08 PM   #53
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
There are some good examples of aiki in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyhhFzE5O5U
Actually, chances are pretty good that throw at the end was choreographed from Aikido. I believe Shatner had direct exposure to Aikido.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 09-02-2008, 08:01 PM   #54
Aikibu
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
Something else is to train as uke, rather than nage, but in a limited fashion. Basically, go through the standard wrist stretches as a paired exercise, rather than solo. This can help with general connection and grounding.

At first. just have nage put a simple lock on uke with just enough pressure so that uke feels it. How far does down the arm/ body/ etc does uke feel the "stretch"? What can uke do to extend that "stretch" even farther?

As the student's connection strengthens, nage can increase the pressure. they can try running through the entire technique, uke can try reversing, yadda yadda.
"Paired Kokyu Wrist Stretching" is a regular part of our practice. In my experience it really helps students learn how to center, breath, and "feel" for openings with resistance. We want them to think about breathing body alignment and resistance from the very beginning. Aikido push hands??? LOL

I never thought about it until now in terms of Waza to build internal conditioning.

Time to go to class and think about some of these things.

William Hazen
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Old 09-02-2008, 09:25 PM   #55
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

We actually have a sacrifice throw in Army Combatives that we call "the Captain Kirk".

Seen at the beginning of this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSHCNTELFI8

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Old 09-02-2008, 09:48 PM   #56
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Hey Kev
Actually a better version is a koryu version. You affect a little lift in whatever manner is possible through the connection at hand. Then when you land, it is a straight vertical drop into the place right at his feet. the pull is not with the arms as they can expand or stretch-out and leave slack. The "pull" is instead from the spine as the arms remain nuetral and connected to you and the rapid drop makes the throw over. It is so frekin fast I have seen it make guys heads snap back and eave them open for a nekc break on the way over. I have seen 150 lb guys decimate a 267 lb judoka repeatedly with this throw AFTER he told them he was going to use it.
If you know -anything- about judo, telling someone what throw you are going to use and them not being able to stop you, over, and over and over really ticks people off. On the other hand I have seen it knock people out on 2" of foam.

The kirk one offers a roll out safety particulalry with the leg lift aiding it. Not my choice at all. It's a safer, sport throw with a lot of slack in it.
Other sacrifice throws are seen in some of Mifunes stuff but it still is done safer than the cutting method.
Hey, while were at it Takenouchi ryu has some great rotational neck breaks for helmut grabs or single wing chokes with a horizontal sutemi around the body. Really sweet and unexpected stuff.

Think of it like a Khan sacrifice fight ender throw..."From hell's heart I strike at thee......

Last edited by DH : 09-02-2008 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 09-02-2008, 09:58 PM   #57
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Well back to the thread-you miscreants
Rob showed up for training tonight and after everyone left we worked on some waza from big extentions (gag) on down to smaller versions, on to DR versions with verticle drops. Then we went on to small ikkyos with body rotations making uke jump instead of Shite moving all over the freakin place. We did a few of those, then on to some seated back grab throws and launches..
We'll work on some things that will add some real..er...fun into the mix, by way of aiki waza that is small. Gees,,I'm doing Aiki waza again somebody shoot me.
Howard help...come rescue me!!!
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:45 PM   #58
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

I doubt that many would have got that...

Nonetheless, it would be interesting to hear Rob's take on it, and whether he still thinks it is at all possible to pursue this far-fetched notion of teaching and training aiki thru waza.

Ignatius
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:52 PM   #59
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Hi Chris
That's not what I got out of him.
He has guy's working on solo body training and paired training pretty steadily.
He wants to figure out a best "next step" in doing waza that won't violate that training, but instead USE it.
My personal take is that most Aikido waza is a disaster for using aiki. So we are working on some modified waza toward DR that he can work in.
To be clear-the structure is being trained every class for an hour or so, then he wants to introduce some use of it.
There is an interesting backdrop, to all of this and he is sincere.

Last edited by DH : 09-02-2008 at 11:07 PM.
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Old 09-03-2008, 07:11 AM   #60
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
We actually have a sacrifice throw in Army Combatives that we call "the Captain Kirk".

Seen at the beginning of this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSHCNTELFI8
OK I don't get the whole sacrifice by jumping into the wall thing or was it to make sure the other actor/stunt double won't get hurt with that move? personally, if I am doing sacrifice stuffs, I'd make sure my sacrifice paid off, like this folks, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV7iBWBlW6g (watch the last throw from the lady )

as far as aiki and waza go, isn't the Chen taichichuan folks got their aiki equivalent through their forms, i.e. waza like silk reeling? then go about and apply it through push-hand? without some kind of one person waza for solo practice, to build the internal aiki so to speak; how does one work on the two person waza next? or does one just move his/her body like some kind of epileptic seizure? sorry, just thinking out loud.
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Old 09-03-2008, 07:23 AM   #61
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
I doubt that many would have got that...

Nonetheless, it would be interesting to hear Rob's take on it, and whether he still thinks it is at all possible to pursue this far-fetched notion of teaching and training aiki thru waza.
Huh, yeah. Me, too. Rob?
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Old 09-03-2008, 07:43 AM   #62
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
as far as aiki and waza go, isn't the Chen taichichuan folks got their aiki equivalent through their forms, i.e. waza like silk reeling?
Silk-reeling is not "waza" in the same sense as ikkyo or ippon-dori. The silk-reeling exercise is just a conditioning routine, like shiko or tenchijin or whatever. Ikkyo and ippon-dori are supposed to be practical application methods (more or less).

As far as the Chen forms go, I believe there is some debate as to whether or not they are intended to represent practical application, like Aikido waza is supposed to. Certainly a lot of people argue that, but I have also heard the argument that they are mostly just extended silk-reeling/conditioning routines.

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Old 09-03-2008, 10:29 AM   #63
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
Ikkyo and ippon-dori are supposed to be practical application methods (more or less).
Maybe we're wrong supposing this and aikido waza is, using Aunkai stages of learning as example, "contact training 1" but having left aside the first stage of learning ("creating foundation") and the third one ("contact training 2"), the "bujutsu" is almost unnatainable. .

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Old 09-03-2008, 10:59 AM   #64
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Maybe we're wrong supposing this and aikido waza is, using Aunkai stages of learning as example, "contact training 1"
This is something I really like about the Aunkai stuff, even more than say tai chi forms, that they very effectively remove the martial role playing portion of training. It is very easy for folks to get trapped in some supposed scenario when training in kata or even cooperative forms. You just don't have that when you're walking around the dojo doing your best impression of a fat Rockette...

It's funny how small the shift is to accomplish this. If you have someone stand in horse stance and do fast punching drills, most likely they get lost in the (supposed) martial quality of the drill and that's it. If you have someone do something like the Aunkai spearing exercise followed by the fast arm swinging drill (we call this one milking the kung-fu cow, I realize it's a striking drill, but I hesitate to even bring that aspect forward with folks), it's much easier for people to focus on what they are doing in their bodies and less about what they are trying to do to their imaginary opponent. At least that's been my experience.

Part of me wonders if this is one of the reasons that we see seated iai. If you look at many of the criticisms that iai has faced you see comments like, "No one ever sat down with a katana,", "The movements are not effective and are done too slowly", and "All samurai would have worn a shoto, so the movements one is learing in iai wouldn't translate if you were dressed correctly." Perhaps instead of being problems with iai training, these were intentionally done to remove that same role-playing aspect of training and create an environment where fundamental movements could be conditioned in a decidedly non-applied environment? I'm not saying this is what I really think happened, but I do think it's an interesting possibility. And yes Dan, Iai is but isn't koryu. Unless you're doing SR, and then it's just plain old gendai and I don't have to worry about it.

Chris Moses
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Old 09-03-2008, 11:04 AM   #65
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Maybe we're wrong supposing this and aikido waza is, using Aunkai stages of learning as example, "contact training 1" but having left aside the first stage of learning ("creating foundation") and the third one ("contact training 2"), the "bujutsu" is almost unnatainable. .
I would shy away from that idea, but concede the issue isn't so straight forward.

In Daito-ryu, the jujutsu kata---such as seen in the Hiden Mokuroku---has the appearance and general character of more typical jujutsu kata. I believe those kata are intended to represent practical application as much as any other jujutsu ryu's kata (with the caveat that all Japanese kata are idealized and abstracted to one degree or another).

But the type of waza seen in the Aiki-no-jutsu, along with certain "basic" waza like aiki-age/kokyo-ho, are different, IMO. I could see the argument that those types of waza are more geared towards developing and testing aiki, rather than practical application.

IMO, Aikido waza fits kinda in the middle. Aikido waza is more abstracted than Daito-ryu jujutsu waza, but it's not as far "out there" as the Aiki-no-jutsu waza.

Last edited by Timothy WK : 09-03-2008 at 11:06 AM.

--Timothy Walters Kleinert

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Old 09-03-2008, 11:21 AM   #66
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post

But the type of waza seen in the Aiki-no-jutsu, along with certain "basic" waza like aiki-age/kokyo-ho, are different, IMO. I could see the argument that those types of waza are more geared towards developing and testing aiki, rather than practical application.

IMO, Aikido waza fits kinda in the middle. Aikido waza is more abstracted than Daito-ryu jujutsu waza, but it's not as far "out there" as the Aiki-no-jutsu waza.
Aiki-age isn't a waza and the understanding of it is fully expressed in Aiki-no jutsu. Aiki-no jutsu is entirely practical and the training is designed to train your body for practical free flowing use of aiki- not for learning more rote waza whether its "out there" or not.
I would never discuss Aiki-age as "a waza." Aiki-age is a body skill that makes waza meaningless as it is just another manifistation of aiki on contact in your body.

Looking at any aiki art as a collection of it's waza is to define it as aiki-less in the first place.You will see Howard Popkin messing with grapplers, Systema people, aikido people without concern for executing a specific Roppokai waza unless it 'happens" Howard is expressing- "aiki" however it occurs, to include power strikes with a closed fist.
Likewise I am singularly unconcerned with waza when I am moving. Case in point: I was playing with a fellow trying to triangle me. To this day he doesn't know that Fure aiki, and aiki age were the reason he ended up upside down being lazily bounced on his head. Had I added strikes in to the mix it would have been over very fast.
Aiki...is formless. Considering it as any one thing in waza is a huge mistake. There are different manifistations of it in contact-but they are no different than the manifistations you make in solo training.
The difference is just ...contact.

Last edited by DH : 09-03-2008 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 09-03-2008, 12:28 PM   #67
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Blush! Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Case in point: I was playing with a fellow trying to triangle me. To this day he doesn't know that Fure aiki, and aiki age were the reason he ended up upside down being lazily bounced on his head. Had I added strikes in to the mix it would have been over very fast.
Hey, was that me?

Mark
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Old 09-03-2008, 12:34 PM   #68
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Aiki-age isn't a waza and the understanding of it is fully expressed in Aiki-no jutsu. Aiki-no jutsu is entirely practical and the training is designed to train your body for practical free flowing use of aiki- not for learning more rote waza whether its "out there" or not.
I would never discuss Aiki-age as "a waza." Aiki-age is a body skill that makes waza meaningless as it is just another manifistation of aiki on contact in your body.
We're in agreement Dan, I think we're just arguing over words. The idea that the Aiki-no-jutsu "is designed to train your body for practical free flowing use of aiki- not for learning more rote waza" is the point I was making. I called aiki-age & kokyo-ho a "waza" because that's how they are often referred to, both in Aikido and (some) Daito-ryu schools.

Maybe it was a poor choice of words to call DR jujutsu techniques "practical application" and Aiki-no-jutsu "out there", but I was trying to draw a distinction. Japanese kata are usually---for right or wrong---viewed as (relatively) "literal", "stimulated" tactical situations. The DR "jujutsu" kata I've been exposed to generally display a more "literal" character.

On the other side of the spectrum, you have exercises that exemplify certain body skills, but aren't obvious examples of "literal" tactical training. Aiki-age & kokyo-ho fit this description. (I would include silk-reeling as well, if we're going to include Chinese stuff.)

I would call the Aiki-no-jutsu stuff I've been exposed to closer to the latter. You obvious don't think the Aiki-no-jutsu is the former ("literal" rote waza), but is it the latter? Or somewhere in-between?

--Timothy Walters Kleinert

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Old 09-03-2008, 12:42 PM   #69
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Mark Chiappetta wrote: View Post
Hey, was that me?

Mark
Nope one of my guys-he was a little bigger than you..
But hey...I did do a similar thing to you- didn't I?

Look at it this way- I didn't fight back though. I even let my structure go a little cuz you wanted to play
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Old 09-03-2008, 12:47 PM   #70
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Hi Tim
Now I see what you meant.
And the last question? Yes, I do see aiki-no-jutsu as a training tool for the body method and application.
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Old 09-03-2008, 02:13 PM   #71
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Nope one of my guys-he was a little bigger than you..
But hey...I did do a similar thing to you- didn't I?

Look at it this way- I didn't fight back though. I even let my structure go a little cuz you wanted to play
I may be small but I'm studious. LOL

You did do a similar thing to me and you were kind enough to NOT hit me. Thanks!

Mark
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Old 09-03-2008, 03:53 PM   #72
Erick Mead
 
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Do symbol Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
Silk-reeling is not "waza" in the same sense as ikkyo or ippon-dori. The silk-reeling exercise is just a conditioning routine, like shiko or tenchijin or whatever. Ikkyo and ippon-dori are supposed to be practical application methods (more or less).
I'd go with "less." Come now. Do you really think that waza with a fully cooperative partner are intended to be "practical application" instead of a "conditioning routine?" Practicing waza as "practical application" is missing the point.

They are not intended to be practical, but rather ARE part of a "conditioning routine." O Sensei even said as much. When asked to perform for the Imperial family, he did not wish to do for them what he trained because, as he said, the training is "fake" or words ot that effect, and he did not wish to do the "practical application" because the real stuff will seriously injure or kill somebody. It was never a brag intended to avoid displays of power; it is that the training is just that -- training -- not application.

Training is prolonging or extending spirals in throws or pins to allow his structure to feel follow and keep up with the shape and energy applied to it. Practical applications are all the whole-body atemi that I restrain myself from delivering in the course of proper movement -- letting go and hammering him or tightening and face planting him or popping a joint out of line. --

Those are highly practical -- but also not very nice -- and generally not repeatable for routine practice -- as if one would want to. Even MMA or other sport is training however violent. Sport is training we accept as "Fun" however bloody or physically risky it may be in practice or competition whether individual, in paired contest or in teams -- be it boxing, rugby or water polo. Any team ball game is simply training for small unit warfare.

Going in with acceptance (not intent) of killing or being killed -- THAT's practical budo -- and there is ONE and only ONE legitimate reason to do either of those. Everything else is conditioning and training.

I see Rob's Whizzo thread-split knife hovering -- so I'll stop now.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 09-03-2008 at 03:58 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-03-2008, 06:06 PM   #73
eyrie
 
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

There seems to be some semantical confusion as to what aikido waza is or is not. While it is largely a parody of ritualized combat - strictly for learning purposes (the real question is "learning what"?), I think it would be mortally foolish to presume that it is a set tactical response to a specified attack. And I'm pretty sure no one here believes this to be the case.

Chris raised a very pertinent point, which I think is the crux of the problem. That is, removing the martial role-playing element, to shift the training focus from one of a perceived application/scenario-based responses to a conditioning purpose.

The challenge with any martial art is that you need both conditioning (including bodily mechanics) and technique. While most arts separate the two aspects for learning and development purposes, I believe Aikido is unique in that it is both conditioning and technique (both in a broader sense) at the same time. And in that respect, I would agree with Chris and Rob J, that it is easy to fall into the trap of focusing on technical or martial application, to the exclusion of the conditioning aspects.

But I'm not certain that I know the answer to that question, or if a solution is even warranted. But it would be interesting to hear people's opinion, including Rob L's.

Ignatius
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Old 09-03-2008, 07:00 PM   #74
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Part of me wonders if this is one of the reasons that we see seated iai. ....... Perhaps instead of being problems with iai training, these were intentionally done to remove that same role-playing aspect of training and create an environment where fundamental movements could be conditioned in a decidedly non-applied environment? I'm not saying this is what I really think happened, but I do think it's an interesting possibility.
I've been thinking that, at least in some ryu, "directly combatively useful" was never a factor in the use of seated techniques from the beginning and that the whole thing makes a lot more sense when viewed as more of a solo tanren in disguise type of exercise. Far too much going to discuss simply here, but you end up sort of isolating various parts of the body and working on them to some form of "correctness", not to mention building some lower body strength in the process before actually standing and moving around, adding all the problems that adds to the mix of how you use your body.

I think Dan's whole "aiki...do" bit is applicable far and beyond the "aiki" arts everyone thinks of today and probably also applies (or maybe "applied") to at least some of the arts that are today known as primarily "iai" arts. Of course things vary from ryu to ryu so I doubt this holds true universally (especially as time passes and a lot of the details and reasons why things are done get lost), but at least in my ryu, the original progression of training, oral teachings, writings, etc all lead me to think that there "was" a lot more going on than just the technical window dressing everyone does now. Unfortunately this is now lost or not actively practiced in most groups out there and just about everyone seems to be missing what now seem, at least to me, to be fairly obvious clues. Take for example this fairly famous teaching in our ryu (apologies for the rough literal translation)

“When the tide rises,
the waves naturally crash upon the shore.
And when the tide recedes,
the waves recede as well,
vanishing without a trace”.

Almost everyone today sees this simply as a metaphor regarding the use violence, and that is indeed an obvious surface layer of meaning, but it is clear to me now (and probably anyone else who has begun this realm of training) that there is a whole more going on in this teaching and, surprise surprise, just about every other major surviving teaching in the ryu. That the aikido of today "overlooked" this stuff isn't surprising as just about everyone else has as well. To get vaguely back on topic, how to reintegrate this stuff back into the art is indeed the problem, in both aiki and sword arts. I've barely got my toe in the door in this area though so I've nothing really to add there at the moment. Anyways, I'll shut up now before the thread drift goes completely out of control.

Rennis "sword guy wasting space on an aiki forum" Buchner
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Old 09-03-2008, 08:05 PM   #75
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
There seems to be some semantical confusion as to what aikido waza is or is not. While it is largely a parody of ritualized combat - strictly for learning purposes (the real question is "learning what"?), I think it would be mortally foolish to presume that it is a set tactical response to a specified attack. And I'm pretty sure no one here believes this to be the case.
I think you are probably right. I think of waza as schematic. A sketch or a section or a slice out of a continuum. They are illustrative of certain classes of interactions, understanding that all the classes of interaction bleed into one another at the edges.

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Chris raised a very pertinent point, which I think is the crux of the problem. That is, removing the martial role-playing element, to shift the training focus from one of a perceived application/scenario-based responses to a conditioning purpose. ... I believe Aikido is unique in that it is both conditioning and technique (both in a broader sense) at the same time. And in that respect, I would agree with Chris and Rob J, that it is easy to fall into the trap of focusing on technical or martial application, to the exclusion of the conditioning aspects.
I find the connection between them is maintained if you point out and look for in your own practice the repeated variations of the kokyu undo in the waza, and the same motions and intent in taijutsu as in weapons work (also schematized, you may note, taking a vast koryu of many different types of weapons and reducing them to two).

The role-playing has a purpose and a very effective point, though, that takes practice beyond the dojo. It makes it possible to do solo work shadowboxing with waza in the manner of kokyu undo -- it engages the imaginative mind to put the body in the condition it would be if the opponent were actually there and loading the body in connection. It gives a concrete focus to what might otherwise seem, to some, far too abstract and introspective to be effective for them. I spent two deployments with this as the ONLY aikido I could practice, along with various weapons forms. It stood me in good stead. This aspect is essentially what I see modeled in the various internal exercises, simulating efficiently loaded structural movement, which I doubt is even a controversial observation to make.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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