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Old 09-01-2008, 04:38 PM   #26
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Yes to all that, Dan.....and Rob asked for an example of how to teach correct feeling in an Aikido class and I gave him one.
One of our students has a wonderful restaurant in Lenox....whenever you are ready.
Mary
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Old 09-01-2008, 05:12 PM   #27
rob_liberti
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Mary,

I appreciate your contribution. I don't think we see eye to eye on many aiki related things but the fact remains, that you answered on point - and you (and Ignatious) inspired me to re-think my approach (which was really what I was looking for) so thank you. If you get together with Dan can I come along? No is of course okay, but I love that "Bizen" restaurant out that way and I've been known to buy dinner for the table on many occasions.

Allen,

I have to think a lot more about how to respond to your thoughtful post. Thanks for writing in this thread. I'm not sure I am qualified to discuss the big energy C - but IIRC there was a bit of a discussion on in on emptyflower.

Rest -

I'll create a different thread for you to all discuss the _other_ same old stuff.

Rob
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Old 09-01-2008, 05:24 PM   #28
Erick Mead
 
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Please provide detailed historical basis for your post. And please, put them in another thread of your own. This thread isn't about what you're posting. Personally, I don't think you have a clue, but if you'd care to provide detailed analysis in another thread, that's your choice.
My post was responding to Rob. If he posts off topic, please let me know, and I won't respond to that post. Fortunately it's not about me. As to your request -- here:
http://aikidoonline.com/Archives/200...t_1000_OS.html

For what it's worth I agree with Rob that Kokyu dosa / koyu tanden ho / agete is very valuable in this development. Chiba was very intensive in that regard and in my experience in Hawaii, California, and Florida this has CONSISTENTLY been a strong emphasis. But you may consider that this is not actually"waza" and therefore Rob was off topic, and so I won't respond fruther so as not to give undue offense.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-01-2008, 05:35 PM   #29
rob_liberti
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Hey guys ---

http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15051

I did all the work for you. Fight there! I'll even fight with you THERE - but I was hoping to discuss waza and aiki HERE.

Rob
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Old 09-01-2008, 06:35 PM   #30
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Allen,

I have to think a lot more about how to respond to your thoughtful post. Thanks for writing in this thread. I'm not sure I am qualified to discuss the big energy C - but IIRC there was a bit of a discussion on in on emptyflower.
Rob,

Thanks. I'll see if I can find it.

Best,
Allen

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 09-01-2008, 07:38 PM   #31
eyrie
 
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Rob,

I'm glad you realized that I was joshing about the yondan thing...

Seriously, I applaud you for your dogged persistence in staying within the framework of aikido, and aikido waza in particular. After all, if it worked for Ueshiba, and that was what he "taught" then surely there must be something in it... right?

Quote:
I am just looking for inspiration on really obvious ones for teaching purposes. I want to try to make the aiki to waza relationship so obvious to my students that I don't have to explain much verbally.
If it helps... the approach I'm taking is the link from "warm up" exercises to singular aspects within a "technique". So, I would take an exercise like funekogi undo and use that particular aspect in, say katate tori kokyu nage tenkan/ura. So, for all intents and purposes, "technique" is not something you do to uke, and is more akin to an exercise... which is in itself simply an extension of another exercise.

Quote:
I can't think of too many other techniques/waza where I hold my arms out to the sides most of the time, for instance.
Neither can I. There probably aren't that many techniques (formal or otherwise) that do. But, by the same token, what's to say that the "feeling" of maintaining the upper cross isn't in others, if not all "techniques" - even if your arms are not always out to the side?

Quote:
As far as live vrs dummy - this may not be too popular, but I don't think it matters too much in general for this point. I'm thinking that typical aikido waza works as an expression of aiki if uke attacks with external power and the nage role is really someone with internal power receiving (being uke himself). My opinion - dummy attacker or alive - the power differential should be sufficient for that to not matter too much....
FWIW, I wasn't really referring to aliveness in that modality. Force, is still force, whether that is sourced "externally" or "internally". Obviously, the amount of input power/force from uke should be commensurate with nage's ability to deal with it, whilst still in keeping the general principles of "aiki". Although I would tend to agree, the more uke has the ability to maintain central equilibrium, the harder it is for them to give it up, and harder for a less-skilled nage to take advantage of. But like any healthy relationship, there has to be some give and take in order for both parties to flourish... wouldn't you agree?

Going back to what Rob John said...
Quote:
Well, I think if someone is smart, they might be able to make inroads to other modes of movement using only waza...theoretically... over a loooooong period of time.

But why the hell would you do that if there's a direct way to train it, and the whole point of training the waza is to get the skill in the first place?
On one hand I would agree. Waza is simply a vehicle, as a mode of transformation, rather than transportation... if that makes sense? The focus on waza as "doing something to someone" is as far away from catching the feeling of aiki as you can get. Ultimately, it's not the waza. OTOH, I also think Ueshiba created a way to directly access and exercise it... oddly enough... thru the framework of waza. Maybe because that's the only way he knew how at the time? Or, then again, maybe he wasn't... maybe he was just dumping people on their asses, like Ark is doing to Rob, and hoping they work it out?

Ignatius
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Old 09-01-2008, 08:05 PM   #32
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Ahh, another good point. Videos of old-age O sensei basically suck because he was beyond form at that point. I am inspired to re-watch the video(s) of younger O sensei demonstrating.

Rob
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Old 09-01-2008, 10:13 PM   #33
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

While you're pondering that...
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Well the nature of aiki is that it is formless in execution. Some guys just get their minds "stuck" on what is shown them and become trapped by outer form.
I find it facinating that Takeda, then Sagawa, Kodo, Ueshiba all said you can make up waza. They continually pointed the way, but I think some students literally have to be slapped out of the stupor to "hear" what is being said right in front of them.
X-posted from http://www.internal-aiki.com/comment...=1#Comment_433

Ignatius
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Old 09-01-2008, 10:47 PM   #34
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
... I was hoping to discuss waza and aiki HERE.
Tenchinage. Most people jump into to doing it in the extension mode of asagao (or tegatana) -- which is what they see at the finish when it breaks into the throw. Both the opening asagao in the entry and the closing asagao in the finish are properly aiki. But closing without the opening creates push on push and resistance -- which is not aiki. But the emphasizing the intial entry over the throws proper helps to develop aiki FROM uke's input.

Uke's hands grip the wrists, the force of the push (compression) becomes tension between nage's hands. Nage's hands should feel tension between them -- like taffy taut between the fingertips. As nage begins to enter - he expands this tension as the push is received -- letting one or the other hand rise up and the other sink down to stretch the "taffy" between the fingers vertically, pulling the fingers from the wrist until it suddenly "snaps." This is the sudden loss of uke's effective resistance to the entry. When the push evaporates, then the arms are freed to extend fully in tegatana. You don;t do it -- it happens because it has nowhere else to go, and arms buckle into the form. That release reverberates into the body drawing the center fully into the irimi, and the throw occurs as the center coming into load is projected out through the arms and hands. Teaching points at the happening of the throw
emphasizes the relationship to aspects of funetori.

This large developed movement can then be reduced as a very small opening asagao, and buckling into the closing asagao or tegatana almost at contact.

As teaching points about the development of the tension, uke can attempt to resolve the situation by isolating one connection over the other, (low for example -- trying to release the high connection, or vice versa). Depending on how and which he goes with (or against), the situation may develop any number of ways, resolving the structural stress straightforwardly with a free rotation into the developed moment, or less obviously with a buckling into the shear.

Teaching waza I never describe it this way, although I understand it this way. I do use asagao because it is is an image that is clear and is structurally accurate. When doing happo undo, I emphasize asagao opening on the withdraw/turn and closing on the extension. On funetori I emphasize the aspects of opening on extension and closing on withdrawal.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-02-2008, 01:15 AM   #35
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Ahh, another good point. Videos of old-age O sensei basically suck because he was beyond form at that point. I am inspired to re-watch the video(s) of younger O sensei demonstrating.

Rob
I'd disagree.
I'd say that some of the old-age Ueshiba (OAU from now on), are pretty enlightening. He does a couple of power releases where it's easy to see the mechanics of what's going on.

In particular was the hokey one labeled on Youtube as "Ueshiba: The archmage?"
There's a good it in there where he bounces someone pretty nicely.
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Old 09-02-2008, 03:43 AM   #36
eyrie
 
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

I agree. And in line with my quoting Dan above... the point in Ueshiba's career when he started to change, right up until the end is probably the most interesting - for that very reason.

However, Rob L's question was about using waza to train aiki.... and since the nature of aiki is formless in execution, how then does one use waza - which is essentially a static snapshot - to train towards formlessness?

That is the crux of the question... how does one "capture the essence of aiki" thru static waza? If you can do static (or even dynamic) exercises that directly train "aiki"... what's the difference between that and waza?

Ignatius
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Old 09-02-2008, 05:43 AM   #37
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

One must learn their ABCs before they can write a novel.
Mary
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Old 09-02-2008, 08:08 AM   #38
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

As far as ABCs, I agree with the idea. I'm looking for the best way to learn the ABCs.

Maybe my question is how can I best integrate aikido waza with the internal skills I practice (maybe not necessarily aiki yet) to most effectively help my aikido students - for instance keeping things in a format that makes the most sense to them seems like it would help.

Rob
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Old 09-02-2008, 08:28 AM   #39
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
As far as ABCs, I agree with the idea. I'm looking for the best way to learn the ABCs.

Maybe my question is how can I best integrate aikido waza with the internal skills I practice (maybe not necessarily aiki yet) to most effectively help my aikido students - for instance keeping things in a format that makes the most sense to them seems like it would help.

Rob
Rob,
It's a question that I keep going over myself. I think you have to break it down into two categories: students already training and brand new students.

1. Students already there have a history of training in a certain way.

2. The brand new students get to start at ground zero and thus, you can shape their training from new.

I think that #2 is going to be a lot easier to handle, especially if you start them doing the internal structure exercises from day one.

#1 is where you're probably looking for suggestions. I guess you'd have to list some of your syllabus. Every school works on things differently. For instance, not every school practices sokumen irimi nage. And even if you did, practicing that technique with aiki can be done a myriad of ways. I think that's why all the greats that had aiki said that there is no form. You have inward, outward, left, right, up, and down. Do you want to practice where you crush uke downwards as you do the technique, or perhaps spin uke left, bring them in, keep them going outwards, etc? Not to mention variations like down and left or up and right or inwards and down, etc.

How do you practice techniques from a reverse engineering applicational usage? In increments, I think. While the students are working on internal structure, let them use bits and pieces of that structure in their techniques. Don't change the technique to fit aiki. Let aiki guide the technique.

It's been my experience that the upper cross (fingertip to fingertip) contradictory force was easier to start and get going than the spine one. And the legs were last. So, why not let students who have the contradictory force going in their arms use that to help them with their technique? As they progress, the spine gets added and the legs, too. It's like the checklist. We'll have to do 1-20 to get started. So, when 1-5 become easier, then that portion will drive a technique to make it better. Course, 6-20 will naturally fail, but as the solo/paired work on internal structure progresses, so will the techniques. Hopefully, anyway.

Mark
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Old 09-02-2008, 08:28 AM   #40
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
One must learn their ABCs before they can write a novel.
Mary
You have a larger point there. I think that analogy is well-taken. (There is an NLP thread elsewhere on the forum -- not a fan, but there are some points to ponder.) The sound of language is the root -- but written forms durably transmit and record it. It just struck me from your comment that the "internal" v. waza debate is very reminiscent of the "whole language" v. phonics debate in reading skills -- and with similar levels of emotional and intellectual commitment to either side. (That's all I'll say on that before Rob polices me out of the thread. )

But let's take that and put waza in its place -- it is analytic -- like phonics, working from a root source in the basic sounds (kokyu undo/kokyu tanden ho movement) toward organizing them into a coherent reproducible form and moving them toward a free expression -- but built on a structured coding of the essential meaning.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-02-2008, 09:05 AM   #41
Timothy WK
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Something else is to train as uke, rather than nage, but in a limited fashion. Basically, go through the standard wrist stretches as a paired exercise, rather than solo. This can help with general connection and grounding.

At first. just have nage put a simple lock on uke with just enough pressure so that uke feels it. How far does down the arm/ body/ etc does uke feel the "stretch"? What can uke do to extend that "stretch" even farther?

As the student's connection strengthens, nage can increase the pressure. they can try running through the entire technique, uke can try reversing, yadda yadda.

--Timothy Kleinert

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Old 09-02-2008, 10:51 AM   #42
rob_liberti
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Hey Erick,

I certainly believe that conversations organically evolve. (I was just trying to keep this conversation from devolving to the same old debate.) Your analogies and insights are very welcome. Your idea about whole language vs phonics is very appropriate.

My mom taught 3rd grade for a long while during all of that. She yes-ed them all to death and wrote up all of her lesson plans as if she only taught "whole language " and guess what - she taught the kids phonics because the kids needed the tools to be able to read all of those wonderful stories. Some of those kids grew up to be doctors and lawyers and engineers. So it worked out well enough.

I am facing a similar problem (and so is Mark). I want to give people things to practice on their own (or in a group circle) and then familiar waza in which to practice those things with partners. (It is for them as well as for myself.) I taught footwork that way for years. It shouldn't be too different. It's just I'm looking for the clearest presentation now.

I really appreciate all of the feedback. I have a strong desire to "give back", and do it in the best way I can.

Rob
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Old 09-02-2008, 01:08 PM   #43
ChrisMoses
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Not sure how much time I'll have here, I have to go pick up my daughter in about 10 minutes...

Good topic though and close to my heart. The last couple months I've been teaching one night a week at a local Aikido dojo (due to the private nature of Icho/TNBBC there's not really a teaching opportunity there, just training and feedback with the group) so I've been working out how I want to transmit the little I know after about a three year hiatus from a regular teaching gig. My hands are still tied a bit in that I'm not the Big Dog at this dojo (there isn't one) so I can't just dump the whole curriculum on it's head and start over. I also need to make sure that what I do is applicable to people who are studying Aikido™. So this is a topic I'm really working on.

I can't say I have the best solution, classes have been too small with pretty irregular attendance and we haven't been going very long now.

Here's what I am doing however:

Instead of the usual stretching, pivoting, tenkan warm-ups that most dojo do, I jump straight into what I consider to be the most basic Aunkai drills. We do a mix of shiko, ten-chi-jin, mabu, stillness, spearing, ashi age, shin tai juku etc... for about 30 minutes. It's no where near enough time, but I've at least been up front with folks about that. They know that if they want to get any benefit, they can't just do them in class. I'm just trying to show them the basics of what they should/could be doing on their own time.

After that, I spend the majority of class working on building block movements that build up to a fairly recognizable technique. The second 1/2 of class is geared more towards a study of the principles of the interaction rather than how to directly apply the bodyskills of the first 1/2 of class. Frankly, until folks do a lot more of the skill building, they *can't* apply them into their waza. If they try, they just wind up reverting and reinforcing bad habits. So while I'll often point out how I'm applying (attempting to apply?) the bodyskill stuff from the Aunkai, I don't expect folks to be doing that themselves. I'm more concerned that they develop a real understanding of shikaku, kuzushi, tsukuri and linear movements on the part of nage. It's my hope that at some point those two worlds will come together, but that's going to be on a case by case basis.

I have found that kaitennage is a decent technique (the way I do it) for incorporating a lot of the moving cross stuff from shin tai juku and then the power delivery developed in the push out. If I find some time, I might make a short (probably private) video of that if anyone is interested.

Gotta run, the bus she be commin'...

Chris Moses
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Old 09-02-2008, 01:30 PM   #44
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

For the life of me I cannot imagine fitting in to an Aikido™ class and doing the waza again the way it is. From what I keep seeing I would have to hold back, foreshorten extensions in any waza and pretty much mess myself up and get all disconnected to "do it." Otherwise I'd be throwing people through walls.

Is it a coincidence that Mike, Ark, and I left the arts altogether to focus on training our bodies.
I've not met them. I just wonder. Is it a coincidence that the stories we hear of men of power trained solo a lot.
is it a coincidence that they made up waza? And what did that mean? Or was it that the waza made itself happen- on contact?

I don't know what I'd do if I had to do aiki without using aiki but I was in a place where I wasn't allowed to practice aiki, while I was training aiki, with people who thought they knew aiki...all along.
It's hard to know something is advanced and beyond them and having to first stop and explain the whole approach they are taking is the antithesis of what aiki is in the first place. Its not how to win friends and influence people thats for sure.

Robs query is interesting, in that -HE- can approach it as the big dog in the dojo(s) Maybe its worth examining for the next step. To re-integrate aiki into aikido.
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Old 09-02-2008, 02:34 PM   #45
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
... Its not how to win friends and influence people thats for sure.
You can say that again.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-02-2008, 04:17 PM   #46
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
For the life of me I cannot imagine fitting in to an Aikido™ class and doing the waza again the way it is. From what I keep seeing I would have to hold back, foreshorten extensions in any waza and pretty much mess myself up and get all disconnected to "do it." Otherwise I'd be throwing people through walls.

Is it a coincidence that Mike, Ark, and I left the arts altogether to focus on training our bodies.
I've not met them. I just wonder. Is it a coincidence that the stories we hear of men of power trained solo a lot.
is it a coincidence that they made up waza? And what did that mean? Or was it that the waza made itself happen- on contact?

I don't know what I'd do if I had to do aiki without using aiki but I was in a place where I wasn't allowed to practice aiki, while I was training aiki, with people who thought they knew aiki...all along.
It's hard to know something is advanced and beyond them and having to first stop and explain the whole approach they are taking is the antithesis of what aiki is in the first place. Its not how to win friends and influence people thats for sure.

Robs query is interesting, in that -HE- can approach it as the big dog in the dojo(s) Maybe its worth examining for the next step. To re-integrate aiki into aikido.
lol This one cracked me up..... Dan....you sound like one of the characters on "heros".

That is the whole point of Aikido...not to hurt anyone and to control your power......... of course you could.....unless maybe you don't want to???
Mary
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Old 09-02-2008, 04:50 PM   #47
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
For the life of me I cannot imagine fitting in to an Aikido™ class and doing the waza again the way it is. From what I keep seeing I would have to hold back, foreshorten extensions in any waza and pretty much mess myself up and get all disconnected to "do it." Otherwise I'd be throwing people through walls.
Aw heck Dan... you telling me you can't perform a lie? Or... Ueshiba performing a lie in front of the Emperor's representative was not then...??

Quote:
Robs query is interesting, in that -HE- can approach it as the big dog in the dojo(s) Maybe its worth examining for the next step. To re-integrate aiki into aikido.
I believe that's the whole point of this thread. IYO, what would be a workable approach to do so? For newbies? For not-so newbies that might as well be newbies since they will have to rework and re-train how to move again?

Ignatius
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Old 09-02-2008, 05:01 PM   #48
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Aw heck Dan... you telling me you can't perform a lie? Or... Ueshiba performing a lie in front of the Emperor's representative was not then...??
You mean the one where he gave a guy a concussion? That one?

Quote:
I believe that's the whole point of this thread. IYO, what would be a workable approach to do so? For newbies? For not-so newbies that might as well be newbies since they will have to rework and re-train how to move again?
Kirk witth the Kobyashi Maru

Change the waza
There is no waza
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Old 09-02-2008, 05:18 PM   #49
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You mean the one where he gave a guy a concussion? That one?

Kirk witth the Kobyashi Maru

Change the waza
There is no waza
ROTFL!!!
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Old 09-02-2008, 05:27 PM   #50
eyrie
 
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

LOL! Never figured you for a Trekkie Dan...

I don't believe in no-win scenarios...

BTW, I believe it's the one where he broke the first guy's arm and then Shioda had to take ukemi for 45mins.

Ignatius
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