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Old 08-07-2012, 11:14 AM   #201
Janet Rosen
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
if i see a bunch of riot police sewing and playing piano, i would run away very quickly. that's a very scary picture. i am willing to face down a bunch of raging MMA/UFC folks, but not those.
I'm developing the curriculum for the Sewinkan Dojo teaching bobbin' and weavin' to evade attacks, some very thimble self-defense techniques from cross stitch AND same side stitch, pinning your opponent, shear mayhem, and if all else fails, pleating the Fifth Amendment.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:52 AM   #202
Rob Watson
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I'm developing the curriculum for the Sewinkan Dojo teaching bobbin' and weavin' to evade attacks, some very thimble self-defense techniques from cross stitch AND same side stitch, pinning your opponent, shear mayhem, and if all else fails, pleating the Fifth Amendment.
I already tried this but just got all tangled up in the bobbin moves - auto hojo jitsu of sorts. Not pretty- effective enough.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

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Old 08-07-2012, 01:04 PM   #203
phitruong
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I'm developing the curriculum for the Sewinkan Dojo teaching bobbin' and weavin' to evade attacks, some very thimble self-defense techniques from cross stitch AND same side stitch, pinning your opponent, shear mayhem, and if all else fails, pleating the Fifth Amendment.
i bow to your expertise and will button down my enthusiasm in self-defense in order to ensure the safety of pin.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 08-07-2012, 01:48 PM   #204
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Lars, as promised here is my response. I posted it on my blog as it was extremely long.

http://www.budo-warrior.com/?p=274

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Old 08-07-2012, 01:54 PM   #205
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Hey Kevin,

Spot on with the OODA loop. Point of clarification: Krav Maga actually trains you from a point of disadvantage and doesn't assume you are ahead. That has always been stressed to me and the students. The stress training and scenario drills are meant to exhaust you to death, then they proceed with additional scenarios and drills to force you to push beyond the exhaustion. The instructors have stated time and time again that you won't always be fresh and alert when SHTF.
Thanks Eric, admittedly I have only had limited exposure to a few schools. I agree, that KM can and does in many scenarios work this process well, in fact, better than most arts. As a MMA and BJJ guy, I have been able to adjust the scenarios to points of failure that the KM guys that I trained with simply do not have good answers for, so that is what I am basing my assumptions on. And of course, YMMV with schools and instructors.

I think the important thing is to be willing to adapt or adjust your training to make up for the short falls you have. BJJers have many and it comes to light when we start throwing weapons in their hands on the ground for example.

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Old 08-07-2012, 02:41 PM   #206
lars beyer
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Lars, as promised here is my response. I posted it on my blog as it was extremely long.

http://www.budo-warrior.com/?p=274
Hi Kevin,
Thanks a lot for making the topic clearer with your extensive writing, itīs obviously written by a man who knows his "metier". I will let it sink in for a while..
Best regards,
Lars
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Old 08-08-2012, 05:59 AM   #207
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

thanks Lars. I will probably revise it some in the future as I edit and read through it. I am concerned that I made some stereotypes that may or may not be 100% representative of what folks are doing. However, I think if you keep that in mind as simply examples or data points for discussion, then it is a little less a criticism of styles as much as it is simply a way to explain something that is hard to explain.

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Old 08-08-2012, 06:30 AM   #208
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Hi Kevin,
Thanks a lot for making the topic clearer with your extensive writing, itīs obviously written by a man who knows his "metier". I will let it sink in for a while..
Best regards,
Lars
+1
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Old 08-08-2012, 07:40 AM   #209
dps
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Ran across this statement and thought relevant to the discussion. I am not endorsing the school but like the thoughts in the statement below.

"A good example of this is gross motor skills techniques. A formula would be training with as much spontaneity as you can. Training with as many opponents as you can. Boxing is functional but it must be modified from its sport style and rule structure. Watch out for breaking your hand on some ones bowling ball of a head. Wrestling is functional but it doesn't advocate cheating on the ground such as nerve attacks, eye rakes and more. The philosophy of my ground fighting system is easy creating a reaction then capitalizes on it. By causing enough pain to create a flinching response allows you to capitalize on it. Allow weapons on the ground as well this ads more problems solving for the student.

Their are no absolutes mind you. Every ones response is quite different but that's the fun part. Create a cheating mindset, Cheating is often the negative term but it can save your life. Keep your tradition! Do not abandon your system. But venture forward to expand your student's knowledge and you own knowledge too! Be creative and observe. "

http://express-press-release.net/19/...%20Defense.php

dps
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Old 08-08-2012, 12:39 PM   #210
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Hard to make a solid conclusion with out more info on his application, but I'd say...yeah...I would agree with that.

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Old 08-08-2012, 12:58 PM   #211
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

In every self defense situation i have been involved, i have been hit. In my opinion being able to defend yourself involves learning to take hits (i think someone has mentioned this point earlier). To the original poster, i advise going somewhere where you will get hit, in any self defense situation you will get hit. If my technique is not good i get hit at my Aikido class, everytime it happens i thank my partner.

Masagatsu Agatsu. Ueshiba.M
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Old 08-09-2012, 12:10 PM   #212
Phil Van Treese
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Self defense, whether aikido, Gung Fu or what ever, is only as good as the person using it. What you put into it is what you will get out of it. As to "how effective is........." the answer is how good is the person using it?????
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Old 08-09-2012, 01:34 PM   #213
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
Self defense, whether aikido, Gung Fu or what ever, is only as good as the person using it. What you put into it is what you will get out of it. As to "how effective is........." the answer is how good is the person using it?????
You could also suck at martial arts and self defense, but your opponent could be even worse and you still win. Or you could get a lucky shot in against a skilled adversary, and prevail that way. And the opposite could happen of course, and you could end up losing even when you shouldn't have lost. In those situations it doesn't matter how good you are. That mostly goes without saying.

The way I see it, everyone has a 50/50 chance in all combat situations, simply because of the unpredictable nature of combat and the uncontrollable variables that arise. But training, strength, and skill can certainly help you with your 50% of the equation. The other 50% you really can't do much about. It's fate and random chance at that point.
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Old 08-09-2012, 03:01 PM   #214
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

No it is not a 50/50 chance. that was the whole point I was making with OODA. he who controls the decision cycle has 100% chance if you can't recover it. Skill is secondary to controlling the cycle. It is not unpredictable and uncontrollable, in fact, for the guy winning, it can be very predictable and very controllable.

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Old 08-09-2012, 03:26 PM   #215
lars beyer
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
No it is not a 50/50 chance. that was the whole point I was making with OODA. he who controls the decision cycle has 100% chance if you can't recover it. Skill is secondary to controlling the cycle. It is not unpredictable and uncontrollable, in fact, for the guy winning, it can be very predictable and very controllable.
Reading up on John Boyd as you proposed I understood that skills, or practicing every possible combination (countermoves to specific moves) was of the essence..?
To my understanding John Boyd developed a huge aviation combat curriculum for jet fighter pilots with the intention to teach all possible counter to every possible move and countermove allowing the fighter pilot to stay ahead in "the loop"..?

Maybe aerial combat doesnīt translate well into hand to hand combat..?
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Old 08-09-2012, 03:35 PM   #216
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

No I don't see aerial combat as being any different, with the exception that modern aircraft have sensors, and I think there is a big difference in combat and self defense. In combat you are typically expecting the enemy to attack you so there are controls measures and sensors leading up to the attack. That is, unless, it is a complete ambush, which at that point the attacker has seized a huge advantage and you are either way behind and most likely dead.

In Self Defense I think in terms of worst case in which your sensors have failed you are were not available and therefore, the attacker seizes the advantage and thus controls the OODA loop. You could be highly skilled and he could have little skill, but he can still beat you...thus I believe "hard skills" are secondary to simply agility.

In aerial combat, and really any combat, you are working on a much finer edge and the degree of control of the loop may be very close to the tipping point either way....maybe 50/50 like Roger said? in that case, I believe skill and experience becomes the tipping point.

however, even though it may be 50/50 in skilled combat, it is NOT random and chaos...it is controlled and much like a tactical chess game...so yes, you practice moves and countermoves and all the branches and sequels committing them to habits.

Last edited by Kevin Leavitt : 08-09-2012 at 03:38 PM.

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Old 08-09-2012, 11:21 PM   #217
lars beyer
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
No I don't see aerial combat as being any different, with the exception that modern aircraft have sensors, and I think there is a big difference in combat and self defense. In combat you are typically expecting the enemy to attack you so there are controls measures and sensors leading up to the attack. That is, unless, it is a complete ambush, which at that point the attacker has seized a huge advantage and you are either way behind and most likely dead.

In Self Defense I think in terms of worst case in which your sensors have failed you are were not available and therefore, the attacker seizes the advantage and thus controls the OODA loop. You could be highly skilled and he could have little skill, but he can still beat you...thus I believe "hard skills" are secondary to simply agility.

In aerial combat, and really any combat, you are working on a much finer edge and the degree of control of the loop may be very close to the tipping point either way....maybe 50/50 like Roger said? in that case, I believe skill and experience becomes the tipping point.

however, even though it may be 50/50 in skilled combat, it is NOT random and chaos...it is controlled and much like a tactical chess game...so yes, you practice moves and countermoves and all the branches and sequels committing them to habits.
Ok, interrestng. It seems to sence the attack before it happens is of vital importance then..?
As well as the ability to set up an ambush and mow down your opponent..?
And then train hard offcourse..
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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Old 08-10-2012, 09:57 AM   #218
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Yea, like in a dog fight you might have equipment failure, which would totally disrupt your plan of attack. It's those little things that can change the outcome of the fight. Or maybe you are fighting in a parking lot and slip on an oil slick in a parking space while scrambling with an opponent. You probably never trained to fight on ice or slick surfaces, yet that day you find yourself standing on one with an angry enemy before you. You can't plan for all the contingencies and permutations, that's all I was trying to say. But you are right that you can own your half of the battle if you prepare and train hard enough. It's the other half in which you'll have to rely on a little help from lady luck.
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Old 08-10-2012, 10:54 AM   #219
lars beyer
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Funny subject this OODA, seems to set of many ideas about this or that- the few times I have used aikido in a physical confrontation outside the dojo, it just happened, as much to my own as the agressors surprice.
In a sence the agressor set himself up by choosing aggression, and I "ambushed" him- sort of.. since he never expected aikido to happen since I didnīt tell him before he attacked me and I knew what was coming btw.. So in that case I was ahead in the loop, but I can clearly imagine instances where I would be caught off guard with the opponent ahead in the loop.
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Old 08-10-2012, 02:10 PM   #220
graham christian
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

If the opponent feels better as a result then it's Aikido and thus very effective. Thus the word self-defence doesn't fit Aikido. Maybe it should be called 'pan' defence.

Peace.G.
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Old 08-10-2012, 03:11 PM   #221
lars beyer
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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If the opponent feels better as a result then it's Aikido and thus very effective. Thus the word self-defence doesn't fit Aikido. Maybe it should be called 'pan' defence.

Peace.G.
How do you mean ?
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Old 08-10-2012, 03:40 PM   #222
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Funny subject this OODA, seems to set of many ideas about this or that- the few times I have used aikido in a physical confrontation outside the dojo, it just happened, as much to my own as the agressors surprice.
In a sence the agressor set himself up by choosing aggression, and I "ambushed" him- sort of.. since he never expected aikido to happen since I didnīt tell him before he attacked me and I knew what was coming btw.. So in that case I was ahead in the loop, but I can clearly imagine instances where I would be caught off guard with the opponent ahead in the loop.
I think this is very key to understand in self defense. It can be very simple things to disrupt the loop. Crossing the street, yelling at him...it doesn't have to be much.

For me, the ones that scare me are the ones where I don't know. For that, I think is most important to prepare for when we are talking self defense.

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Old 08-10-2012, 03:52 PM   #223
graham christian
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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How do you mean ?
I train from the view of making the opponent better, restoring harmony to the opponent as he is out of harmony. Thus it's not so much to do with self and thus defence but rather bringing about peace in the other and harmony between us.

I do nothing to him, only for him.

Peace.G.
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Old 08-10-2012, 03:59 PM   #224
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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If the opponent feels better as a result then it's Aikido and thus very effective. Thus the word self-defence doesn't fit Aikido. Maybe it should be called 'pan' defence.

Peace.G.
I have no idea what u are getting at.

However if u study Boyd and OODA, he makes it clear that the Orient phase is very important. This phase uses things like previous experiences, cultural tradition, analysis and synthesis, new info, and genetic heritage. If u think about it....if u work hard at aikido and budo, it can enable u to see things with a good perspective and make the right decisions when necessary.

There are two things I think are important with this discussion. 1. Recognizing that budo is complex and we have to consider many aspects in order to make good decisions on the action we take. We cannot simply choose to focus on the things we want to focus on,, or redefine things to fit our own world view. We must try and be as objective as possible. 2. We need to accept that if we are in a fight, then we must accept that it is a fight and recognize that there is a process to win, and that is to disrupt your opponents plan and change his ability to act.

I am not sure how your opponent feels about things determines if it is aikido or not.. I tend to think in terms of self. That is, I can only affect my actions. If I train properly, I can make the most informed and skillful actions that are appropriate for the situation. As such, if I have compassion and approach the situation with my he'd screwed on right, and I use the appropriate action, then I am doing aikido. How my opponent feels about it? I can't determine how he feels about it, it is not important as I can't affect this directly.

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Old 08-10-2012, 04:15 PM   #225
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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I train from the view of making the opponent better, restoring harmony to the opponent as he is out of harmony. Thus it's not so much to do with self and thus defence but rather bringing about peace in the other and harmony between us.

I do nothing to him, only for him.

Peace.G.
For me, this is prostylization. For me it is also arrogamce. That is, another person sits in judgement and determines what is better for the other.

I think it is arrogant to believe u can restore harmony in another. (Whatever restoring harmony means).. I believe all you can simply do is set the example and expose them to alternatives, show compassion and strength. They have to make the changes for themselves if they want them. Happiness, if this is what u mean by harmony....is personal. What makes one person happy might be different than another. We don't get to sit in judgement over this. With the exception of when ones happiness causes harm to others or self.

Again, look at the model closel. Self defense is a part of the whole. It is a what budo is all abut. The ability to be strong, unyeilding and to set a good compassionate example. It is okay to defend yourself for the right reasons. Look at the seven tenants of budo...you have to be able to stand up for them...this isn't just about a state of mind...it is about the capacity to actual do something real and physical.

All we can do is be the change we want to see in the world.

Religion is a good example. Some people find happiness through it, others have suffered greatly at the duality that it can create. Looking at how indigenous people lived prior to missionaries that showed up to bring god to them...I personally saw a lot of suffering happen because of it. All those missionaries had good intentions I am sure to fix those folks too.

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