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Old 08-06-2012, 08:17 AM   #176
PeterR
 
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Boxing is more available to most people then Muay Thai.

Good boxers do anger management and the OODA loop.
dps
Anger does not equal aggression - I was watching an interesting program on "The Anger Gene". I figure the jury is still out on that but in the study they found MMA tended not to have it. Apparently uncontrollable anger works against you.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:26 AM   #177
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Anger does not equal aggression
True.
Good boxers know aggression management too.l

dps
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:28 AM   #178
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Freaky! Re: im new

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
It depends. Why are you cross-training? Why are you training in the first place, and what do you feel your training lacks that you want? How much time do you have to devote to cross-training, on an ongoing basis?

If you were buying a pair of shoes, you'd certainly start out with some idea what you wanted to use these shoes for, what your shoe size is, and how much you could afford to spend -- and if you didn't, you probably wouldn't be surprised if the result didn't fit too well (your feet, your purpose or your budget). The same should be true for choosing a martial art, which is a lot harder to swap out than a pair of shoes.
why? I like practical martial arts for fun fitness that develops the confidence to not fight, if that's right.

non-delusional study of violence, in a framework of respect, cultivates confidence that prevents violence, resolves conflicts, and is a heck of a fun way to exercise. It's "kind to be cruel" kind of thing.

playing (so called "fighting") in the sport of MMA is one fun way to test skill and spirit of a "traditional" martial artist, using the least amount of game-rules in a "lab'" kind of setting.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:40 AM   #179
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Freaky! Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Philip Zeplin-Frederiksen wrote: View Post
Interesting that people mention boxing as a way to harden yourself... wouldn't Muay Thai be a better choice? It presents all the same benefits as boxing, except you also use (and get hit by) legs, elbows, knees, and throws?
Thoughts?
Yes, of course, if you can find a good instructor that has a cadre of advanced students, like any martial art/sport.

muay Thai or "International" kickboxing (that allows leg/low kicks, elbows/knees), Sansha/Sanda, and American kickboxing (no leg/low kicks) are more useful than boxing, assuming you have access to good instruction.

Many karata-ka do not realize developing one-strike bare-knuckle knockdown ability (vs. same weight class), even after receiving hard hits, is the cornerstone of 'stand-up" waza,

Granted boxers punch well, but often creates openings for low kicks or knees to face and do not hone in take-down/throws while in a clinch.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:48 AM   #180
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

The problem I suspect is that many Aikidoka do not seem to train beyond the years of foundation building of cooperative & predictable exchange of skills: None or not much creative sparring/randori, for example. (I'd be delighted to be wrong about this notion)

so I'm looking for riot-poice-Aikido/Aikijutsu in my 'hood.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:51 AM   #181
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

so, when I am called on to teach I want to be able to offer practical skills to persons of any size or demeanor. I've always been curious about Aikido.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 08-06-2012, 09:04 AM   #182
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

I am right up there shouting the benefits of good competitive training - it really does have a benefit for a whole range of skills. Just that it is not the whole answer - nothing ever is.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-06-2012, 09:26 AM   #183
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Boxing is more available to most people then Muay Thai.

Good boxers do anger management and the OODA loop.
dps
I agree, absolutely..they do understand the OODA loop. Infact, just about all sports that involve taking an action to affect anothers (cause and effect) do.

However, they do so within the context of their sport and strategy, and that is key to identify that and understand the limitations of this issue.

I do not mean to imply that boxing training is not good training and that boxers do not understand (or cannot) how this applies to self defense. I do mean to imply that as a specific methodology, though that studying boxing as a sport is a tremendous amount of overhead for very little gain in understanding how to manage self defense. IMO, your time is better spent doing other things.

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Old 08-06-2012, 09:28 AM   #184
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Re: im new

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Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Hi Kevin
Thatīs very interresting, would it be possible to elaborate a bit on how this would work in practise, I mean maybe through explaining OODA with an example ? I never heard of this "philosophy" before it was mentioned here, and find it quite interresting..Thank you.
Lars
Let me get home this afternoon and see if I can. I might have a post or two on my blog about it that is applicable. I'd recommend starting off by reading about John Boyd and his theory first, and imagine how that might apply to a self defense scenario. google him and start with Wiki for a good primer.

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Old 08-06-2012, 09:35 AM   #185
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Re: im new

Quote:
Chris Evans wrote: View Post
why? I like practical martial arts for fun fitness that develops the confidence to not fight, if that's right.

non-delusional study of violence, in a framework of respect, cultivates confidence that prevents violence, resolves conflicts, and is a heck of a fun way to exercise. It's "kind to be cruel" kind of thing.

playing (so called "fighting") in the sport of MMA is one fun way to test skill and spirit of a "traditional" martial artist, using the least amount of game-rules in a "lab'" kind of setting.
As long as you know what you are doing and why...no issues. Agree it can be fun and for fitness for sure. I love martial arts and I primarily do them cause I simply love the interaction and the dynamics of working with others.

However, for me I am very cautioous when you start talking about the "confidence to not fight", and "how to resolve conflict" kinda stuff. I think it has the tendency to get very muddy and philosophical..which IMO leads to all kinds of delusional issues.

Regardless of how I feel about fighting or how you feel about it, and how much confidence we have, how peaceful we feel and how hard we try to avoid violence, present a strong presence etc...we may not get a vote in the situation.

So, for me, when I focus in on Self Defense and the pyschology etc that surrounds it...I throw all this out the window and simply focus on the fact that you are in a fight...PERIOD. You don't get a vote in what is happening, and you simply have to deal with the reality and violence of the physicality of what is happening to you at that present time. That is, of some person or person(s) are imposing their will on you.

I agree that the MMA paradigm methods can inform us of alot about fighting, but again...you have to still look beyond that as well. However, I have found that MMA and BJJ DO tend to provide a very decent and safe way that is "close" to what we should be doing. However, it is still a limited perspective and we have to look beyond the "rules".

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Old 08-06-2012, 09:41 AM   #186
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Chris Evans wrote: View Post
Yes, of course, if you can find a good instructor that has a cadre of advanced students, like any martial art/sport.

muay Thai or "International" kickboxing (that allows leg/low kicks, elbows/knees), Sansha/Sanda, and American kickboxing (no leg/low kicks) are more useful than boxing, assuming you have access to good instruction.

Many karata-ka do not realize developing one-strike bare-knuckle knockdown ability (vs. same weight class), even after receiving hard hits, is the cornerstone of 'stand-up" waza,

Granted boxers punch well, but often creates openings for low kicks or knees to face and do not hone in take-down/throws while in a clinch.
Chris, not to beat a dead horse so to speak, but maybe/maybe not. Again, it depends on where you are in the process of the fight. All off the systems you mention have some good application depending on where you are in the process. Sure a standing clinch, muay thai has some very good applications because the sport of muay thai works the standing clinch and they work on perfecting things in this area. However a good judoka can mitigate a clinch pretty darn quickly so you can argue that Judo is the ultimate answer in the clinch as well. Then you can go to the ground and say that the BJJ guy rules cause he can kick "okay" do a takedown and then can dominate his opponent on the ground better than anyone.

One thing we can really take from UFC and MMA is that there is no one fighting style that will dominate the whole of a fight.

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Old 08-06-2012, 10:18 AM   #187
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Re: im new

Quote:
Chris Evans wrote: View Post
why? I like practical martial arts for fun fitness that develops the confidence to not fight, if that's right.

non-delusional study of violence, in a framework of respect, cultivates confidence that prevents violence, resolves conflicts, and is a heck of a fun way to exercise. It's "kind to be cruel" kind of thing.

playing (so called "fighting") in the sport of MMA is one fun way to test skill and spirit of a "traditional" martial artist, using the least amount of game-rules in a "lab'" kind of setting.
You only answered half the questions, Chris. You've said what you like, but not what you lack in your current training; you've said what you want, but not what time and resources you have to obtain it.

No need to answer here; these are questions for you and you alone.
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Old 08-06-2012, 10:24 AM   #188
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Re: im new

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Let me get home this afternoon and see if I can. I might have a post or two on my blog about it that is applicable. I'd recommend starting off by reading about John Boyd and his theory first, and imagine how that might apply to a self defense scenario. google him and start with Wiki for a good primer.
Thanks, I will.
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Old 08-06-2012, 12:13 PM   #189
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Chris Evans wrote: View Post
so I'm looking for riot-poice-Aikido/Aikijutsu in my 'hood.
The Aikido practised by the riot police is Yoshinkan Aikido - they do the 1 year intensive "Senshusei" course.
Though it should be noted that, apparently, Shodan in Kendo or Judo is also acceptable for the riot police, not just Aikido.
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:34 PM   #190
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Where is Michael Kimeda when you need him - he was an instructor there.

Not all riot police take the course - its an option for some. They also don't take the whole year.

I am also not sure a Shodan in anything is an actual requirement for them although I will say that every policeman I knew in Japan had one - mostly Judo or Kendo.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-06-2012, 10:24 PM   #191
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Also riot police training is specific. It deals with over specific situational and environmental factors. As such, again, while some will apply to self defense, much will simply not.

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Old 08-06-2012, 10:41 PM   #192
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Also riot police training is specific. It deals with over specific situational and environmental factors. As such, again, while some will apply to self defense, much will simply not.
That in itself is a good point - I wonder what the stated purpose of the riot police taking the Yoshinkan course is. I doubt Judo, Aikido and Kendo techniques have very much to do with what's required for riot control but intense budo training has its own reward.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-07-2012, 01:05 AM   #193
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Agree Peter. I have no idea what exactly they teach as TTPs, but as a general focus of "Riot control" there are some fundamentals that would be common to all Riot Control training.

I think in it's own right, it is interesting to learn about what they do, and as with any other form of "budo" type practice, there are many, many benefits to be gained.

I don't mean to seem dismissvie of any of these forms of practice or styles. I am simply framing my responses within the context of "self defense" which for me, like riot police training, has a very specific focus and methdology for training.

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Old 08-07-2012, 01:39 AM   #194
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I don't mean to seem dismissvie of any of these forms of practice or styles. I am simply framing my responses within the context of "self defense" which for me, like riot police training, has a very specific focus and methdology for training.
I understand that and it is refreshing to hear a more nuanced approach.

I think there is benefit towards self defense for all the styles we have discussed but each in their own right does not provide the full story.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-07-2012, 06:27 AM   #195
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

I have a post I am going to upload later on. It is long and I need to put it on my blog and provide the link and can't do it where I am now. But it speaks to the same thing you are discussing concerning each in their own right does not provide the full story.

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Old 08-07-2012, 07:08 AM   #196
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
I doubt Judo, Aikido and Kendo techniques have very much to do with what's required for riot control but intense budo training has its own reward.
i thought riot police usually carry a shield on one arm and baton on the other. i would have thought kendo would be useful. methink, roman legion approach.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:31 AM   #197
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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i thought riot police usually carry a shield on one arm and baton on the other. i would have thought kendo would be useful. methink, roman legion approach.
...now you're just being silly. But what's new?

Kendo:riot control with shield and baton::sewinglaying the piano. Hey, they both involve the use of the hands, right? Obviously they have lots in common.
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Old 08-07-2012, 08:16 AM   #198
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
IMO, arts like Krav Manga are good as they teach aggressiveness and violence of action...good thing to know and be able to do in a fight. However, it assumes u are ahead and winning. Also can have issues with use of force depending on situation.
Hey Kevin,

Spot on with the OODA loop. Point of clarification: Krav Maga actually trains you from a point of disadvantage and doesn't assume you are ahead. That has always been stressed to me and the students. The stress training and scenario drills are meant to exhaust you to death, then they proceed with additional scenarios and drills to force you to push beyond the exhaustion. The instructors have stated time and time again that you won't always be fresh and alert when SHTF.

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Old 08-07-2012, 08:18 AM   #199
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
...now you're just being silly. But what's new?

Kendo:riot control with shield and baton::sewinglaying the piano. Hey, they both involve the use of the hands, right? Obviously they have lots in common.
if i see a bunch of riot police sewing and playing piano, i would run away very quickly. that's a very scary picture. i am willing to face down a bunch of raging MMA/UFC folks, but not those.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:02 AM   #200
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Hey Kevin,

Spot on with the OODA loop. Point of clarification: Krav Maga actually trains you from a point of disadvantage and doesn't assume you are ahead. That has always been stressed to me and the students. The stress training and scenario drills are meant to exhaust you to death, then they proceed with additional scenarios and drills to force you to push beyond the exhaustion. The instructors have stated time and time again that you won't always be fresh and alert when SHTF.
A kravist vs. an aikidoka, now that would make for an interesting matchup. So would piano playing riot police vs. seamstresses....
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