Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-11-2009, 09:29 AM   #101
philippe willaume
 
philippe willaume's Avatar
Location: windsor
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 317
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Sean wrote:

Thanks for the great example!

This is very important to understand when talking about methodology.

We train and develop habits for driving cars daily for what is considered "normal tolerances". As long as we operate within those parameters our driving techniques can be very effective.

However, once we incur new conditions and parameters (as in your wreck example), then we end up with dissonance as you experienced when you tried to move a car with no front end on it.

I have talked to many of my fellow soldiers about the firefight/combat situations they have been in...they always experience the same thing...that is, they do things out of habit...somethings right, somethings wrong...but it is always the same conversation and experience as above.

This is important when you start talking about Self Defense or violent encounters.

"effectiveness" really is a interesting word.

It is not that our training is wrong or bad...most of what I have experienced is very good....PRINCIPALLY.

However, if you don't replicate the environmental conditions and practice in as close as possible stress, pressure, system overload...then you will not find your weaknesses and develop ways to mitigate them or develop new habits.

In reality Dissonance I think will always occur. However, I think there is much we can do to reduce it if we train properly.

If you are going to train women how to deal with the realities of violent rape, well then you need to find a 200lb guy to get up close and personal.

I personally do not feel 100% qualified to do this. Lots of pyschological issues and what not to deal with as you push people way outside of their comfort zone and maybe even cause them to re-live old traumas.

Teaching the old "high heel to the foot, kick to the balls" is okay...but it really does not completely address or prepare women for the full spectrum that will be presented in reality.

However, I think at the same time, we owe it to our students to be very honest in what we are really training them to do and exactly what the weaknesses are in their training so if they choose to go down that path, then they do so in a more infomed way.

I do though think that if someone is serious about preparing themselves to deal with this stuff that they can do so. AND I do believe that AIkido type training, done properly is a very important part of that process.

It is not, however, a quick seminar process, or a RBSD DVD solution.

It requires a multi-faceted, and a long term committment to really reach a level of understanding and training.
Kev
I think you are right on the money there.
In a way you need to train for SD the same way competition fighter train for competition.

It does not mean that we need top train as if we were going to have a MMA fight.
But the MMA training methodology is geared up toward what they want to achieve.

My main grip with RBSD DVD or seminar is that given the time frame, there is no way; you can apply those techniques at the relevant moment in a stress situation. As kev and sean wrote, you will fall back into what you have the habit of doing.

Training for competition boils down to developing good habit for competition and training for SD should boils down to the same.

and I do agree that it is possible with the aikido methodology.
phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2009, 11:00 AM   #102
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Agreed Phil.

MMA type training can teach us quite a bit about what occurs in a real fight. I think many of us have profoundly benefited by the "R&D" that has gone on in the ring in the last 15 years.

As you state though, one does not need to train as a MMA fighter 100%.

AND, yes, much of what we do in Aikido is very worthwhile.

The important thing I think is to "begin with an end in mind" and focus your training in such a way that it accomplishes those goals.

For many of us today, this means we are looking outside of our base arts and taking more of an "open source" look at our training instead of bowing maybe to one sensei and saying "my mind is blank...teach me".

That said, a rote beginner may not have the ability to discern good training from bad, or even know how to begin.

In that vein, that is why there is nothing wrong with starting out with a good foundational art that is based on sound principles of martial movement. Arts like Aikido, Judo, BJJ, offer these things I think. Although, my thoughts today place Aikido in more of a "grad school" of training, but then others would argue the opposite...I don't think there is a right answer.

However, Aikido, BJJ, and Judo all have shortcomings when you start looking at the SD issues...I have found gaps in all three of these systems.

I think it is a little clearer in BJJ and Judo simply because they are typically trained off a competitive mode and tend to be more measurable and quantifiable, l wheras the "door is wide open" on aikido since it is typically not...but then there are aikido dojos and styles that are based on competitive models. YMMV of course!

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2009, 11:05 AM   #103
Evan Schmitt
Dojo: Okinawa Akikai
Location: Washington D.C.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4
United_States
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Thanks to everyone for your replies,

Any thoughts on the first part of the question though? Why do you think that Aikido, it seems, more than any other martial art gets singled out as a poor form of self defense? And why is there always this question of "realism" as well...(and this is partly where I was going with the basketball anaology).

For example, many people say that it is neccesary to train in a MA that envolves sparring. Is there more realism in this? You spar with full pads, in a ring, probably both unarmed, there are rules ect... As someone mentioned before with regards to the basketball anaology when you are sparring you both know that it is not a life threatening sitsuation, you know exactly what is happening. People also often use the example of training MMA. Well, in MMA fighters train for three months straight to fight a single opponent. There are weight classes, rules (no eye gouging, hitting below the belt, top of the head, head butting, kneeing when an opponant is on the mat ect, ect). My point in all this is "street effectiveness" is a myth. Most of us who are not in some form of law enforcement will probably never use martial arts outside a dojo, or if we do it would be on a drunk cousin at a family gathering to keep him driving home or something like that, in which case one could argue that you are more likely to use Aikido effectively than any other MA as you don't want to put your cousin in a coma with a head kick, (or anyone else with law suits running rampid these days). The only person i know who has been mugged (I live in D.C.) was a Div 1 collegiate wreslter and he was hit in thwe back of the head with a brick while walking home listening to his I-Pod. Never heard a thing, just woke up in the hospital. Should he have been more ware? Yes. But he was in a relatively safe nighborhood (Georgetown) and just didn't think of it. That's a "street sitsuation". Robbers don't attack people just at complete random. They wait for someone who isn't paying attention, or use a group to attack a single person ect..

So why does Aikido get singled out? Why the hostility? Even if you train in multiple martial arts, I would argue it is probably better to be really proficient in one (regardless of what it is...) than to be ok at multiple MA's. I know that the LAPD, Tokyo Riot Police, and other law enforcement agencies have Aikido programs as part of their training, so I can't imagin they would do that if Aikido was not effective in certain instances. But rergardless of what they train and how good they are every police officer carries a baton, pepper srey, stun gun, real gun, ect... Why? Because you can know whatever Martial art you want but when you have a big, strong dude hopped up on PCP coming at you full board you are in trouble.

It's good for awareness, once you reach a certain level in may certainly increase your odds of survival (ie, breaking loose and running like hell), but I think you need to find something else in a martial arts other than this made up notion of "street effectiveness". The street is dangerous. Thats why police officers work in teams, that's why they carry weapons. I do not care what you take, ju-jitzu, judo, karate, a combination of everything. So why single out one over the other.

As Mike Myers said on coffee talk "discuss amongst yourselves".
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2009, 11:50 AM   #104
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Quote:
So why single out one over the other.
Boredom?

Best,
Ron (nice post)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2009, 02:47 PM   #105
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Why:

Because it is first and foremost a methodology designed to teach "aiki" principles AND not "how to be effective in 30 days in a street fight".

The problem is that principles can be understood mentally way before they are ingrained physically. Many folks jump the gap to "effectiveness" and extrapolate what they think the art can do and what they are capable of....

Hence, we end up with the issue at hand!

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2009, 03:43 AM   #106
philippe willaume
 
philippe willaume's Avatar
Location: windsor
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 317
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Hello Evan
Yes robbers and thugs will manipulate the environment so that they maximise their chances to be successful. But really so did samurai or knights.
And yes you are right combat sport is designed to give an even starting chance to each opponent and they are both aware of each other.
There is limitation on what you can and can't hit but it is not that important. At the end, if you want your blow to be effective, you need to be in same dominant position to punch someone in the throat as if you were to punch him in the face.

Why aikido is single out?
Well I do not think it is singled out, I think WT and ninju tsu are getting it much worse.
But like many TMA, in aikido the teaching are technique based, so you do have a disconnection between what to use and when to use it.
So it kinds of makes Kevin's point even more sore, so to speak.

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2009, 12:55 PM   #107
Douglas Fajardo
Dojo: budo aiki dojo aikikai
Location: Habana
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 28
Cuba
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Let me tell you something , no better IŽll ask you
Are you ready for a fight are, you ready for getting hurt ,are you ready for all this
If you wanna learn how to fight you should know that it doesnŽt matter wjth Martial Art you know , the most important is (You)
You wanna self defence , Learn Aikido ,muay thai, judo,jiu jutsu ,
Please do not learn only one way of defence , more guns you have more defence
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2009, 08:29 PM   #108
Disillusioned
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 6
Japan
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Aikido should not be trained as a self defense system. Do it for fun / LARP if anything.

Combat Sambo, BJJ, MT, Boxing, Judo and any other full contact MA are your best bet.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2009, 09:24 PM   #109
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Quote:
Jerry Silverman wrote: View Post
Combat Sambo, BJJ, MT, Boxing, Judo and any other full contact MA

So you consider BJJ and Judo to be full contact?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2009, 09:45 PM   #110
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

The kid who started this thread is 16 yrs old. I have re-thunk this with a new perspective.

First consider Aikido really isn't effective in a short time, right, this has been mentioned. Because Aikido is an art, it goes beyond the level of self-defense techniques. If it merely stop and the self-defense level it would take 6 mos. to learn. Why, well only a few techniques are practiced over and over again with the application of muscle force over principle. These techniques would be t defend against certain typical types of attacks. So you would only learn say 5-10 techniques that are roughly applied enough to work for self-defensive purpose.

But Aikido is an art. And practitioners are artisans. With an art you hone and craft your skills with the goal of mastery and technical perfection usually shown in demos and not on the street. That takes years to reach that level.

Secondly, for those thinking similar to this kid. In very simplistic thumbnail sketch, Aikido wasn't intended for street brawling and that kind of thing. The focus of Aikido is spiritual in terms of bettering the world and people. That means not fostering people to choose violence or be violent, but rather peace. That fostering is done through the practice of Aikido. And there is more too it than that but it provides a rough idea.

Aikido isn't a brawling system, it is an art. That can be used (not readily as a street fighting application) as a self-defense. But not everyone practices it that way. Most Aikidoka practice it for other reasons.

odd thought You don't become a baseball player to learn to fight with a bat. Sure you can learn some things from learning to swing a bat correctly that would help you use it as a self-defense or fighting weapon. But that isn't baseball's intention to teaching fighting. Better yet, apply this idea to Hockey, you don't play hockey to learn to street fight.

For those looking to Aikido as tool in your street fighting kit, sure there are things in Aikido that will serve that purpose. Overall, Aikido wasn't intended to be combative it was to be in art by which you tempered the soul sort of speak.

IMO
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 12:52 PM   #111
Basia Halliop
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
Canada
Offline
Red face Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Quote:
Better yet, apply this idea to Hockey, you don't play hockey to learn to street fight.
Um, are you sure? With the NHL, I'm not so sure that's true...

Sorry, couldn't resist
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 04:39 PM   #112
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Um, are you sure? With the NHL, I'm not so sure that's true...

Sorry, couldn't resist
I knew I would be called on that Hockey I think is fighting on ice. It like the saying. I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2009, 06:31 AM   #113
philippe willaume
 
philippe willaume's Avatar
Location: windsor
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 317
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Quote:
Jerry Silverman wrote: View Post
Aikido should not be trained as a self defense system. Do it for fun / LARP if anything.

Combat Sambo, BJJ, MT, Boxing, Judo and any other full contact MA are your best bet.
Sure, and next you will tell us that is way to look attractive in jodhpurs.

If you are old enough, rewind in the late 90, and the very inadequacy of combat sport in SD lead to rise of RBSD. At the time simple technique, little trainning and no conditioning was every thing to man and beast. Do you see the pattern emerging here?

If the answer of any of the question bellow is no, then you are lacking a critical aspect of SD.

Do you understand the legal implication of your actions and those of your opponent?
Do you train to recognise dangerous location and situation?
Do you pressure test your technique?
Do you train with and against weapon?
Do you train in damage limitation/absorbing and oops defence?
Do you train against several opponents?
Do you train in and for asymmetrical situation?

Phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2009, 08:59 AM   #114
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Quote:
Jerry Silverman wrote: View Post
Aikido should not be trained as a self defense system. Do it for fun / LARP if anything.

Combat Sambo, BJJ, MT, Boxing, Judo and any other full contact MA are your best bet.
I think BJJ has demonstrated that entering in rapidly on the whole defeats any striking art and reality has demonstrated the stupidity of willingly going to the floor and of staying there for any length of time.
So you need an art that enters in and takes control rapidly, like BJJ does, with the all the mobility, flexibility and awareness of being on your feet.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2009, 09:13 AM   #115
Basia Halliop
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
Canada
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

For self defense I'm not entirely convinced _any_ martial art is really the best or most effective use of someone's time, if that's their main goal. It seems like 95% of self defense would be the stuff that usually happens before there is any physical contact (recognizing likely dangerous situations or dangerous people, for example, before you get in over your head, and finding a way to exit the situation before anything happens). If someone is really interested in safety, I think I'd tell them to study all that kind of stuff first, and only when they have done that really thoroughly then maybe learn something physical if they still want.

For example most violence is between people who know each other to some degree. Seriously, I think developing judgment in how to pick your friends and the people you hang out with is probably the first thing (highest payback in safety) I'd recommend someone do for self-defense.

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 07-07-2009 at 09:15 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2009, 09:23 AM   #116
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
For self defense I'm not entirely convinced _any_ martial art is really the best or most effective use of someone's time, if that's their main goal. It seems like 95% of self defense would be the stuff that usually happens before there is any physical contact (recognizing likely dangerous situations or dangerous people, for example, before you get in over your head, and finding a way to exit the situation before anything happens). If someone is really interested in safety, I think I'd tell them to study all that kind of stuff first, and only when they have done that really thoroughly then maybe learn something physical if they still want.

For example most violence is between people who know each other to some degree. Seriously, I think developing judgment in how to pick your friends and the people you hang out with is probably the first thing (highest payback in safety) I'd recommend someone do for self-defense.
Agreed. The main purpose of any martial art should be the teaching of a martial mindset. Most of them, Aikido included, fail miserably at that IMO.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2009, 10:04 AM   #117
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Agreed. The main purpose of any martial art should be the teaching of a martial mindset. Most of them, Aikido included, fail miserably at that IMO.
I think it has more to do with the teacher than with the Art. I had a great teacher in aikido many years ago that did/does an outstanding job of teaching the martial mindset. We rarely if ever did anything that would be considered outside the norm of aikido either.

Could I fight? No.

I learned a few years ago that there is a huge distinction between warrior/martial mindset, wanting to be good, identifying with a group of like individuals and actually being able to fight.

I learned my lesson, thank god, in a training environment....

I now train much, much differently overall than I used to.

Aikido plays a part in it, but methodology I learned from BJJ, and Muay Thai are a major part of what I do these days.

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2009, 05:34 PM   #118
Sasha Mrkailo
Dojo: Aikido Sombor
Location: Sombor
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 14
Serbia
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

It is very effective. Here is the theory behind this statement.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15062

Aikido is an martial art. Not ballet.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2009, 09:06 PM   #119
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I think it has more to do with the teacher than with the Art.
Up to a point. I think sporting arts struggle with it more than the non-sporting. They're geared up towards a clearly defined end point, the; fight in the ring. There's no need to worry about outside of the ring.

I play "guess the art" whenever I'm by the martial arts section of a book shop. I position myself close to the bookshelf while I'm flicking through a book and wait.
If they politely excuse themselves, pick up a book and stand to one side where they can keep an eye on things they're usually Aikidoka or Karateka, judging by the books they read.
On the other hand if they barge in front and stand in front of me with their back to me while they're flicking through the majority of the time the book they're reading is on either Thai boxing, boxing or similar arts.
In the past five years I could have put about 30 thai boxers, boxers etc in hospital with zero risk to myself.

Quote:
I had a great teacher in aikido many years ago that did/does an outstanding job of teaching the martial mindset. We rarely if ever did anything that would be considered outside the norm of aikido either.

Could I fight? No.

I learned a few years ago that there is a huge distinction between warrior/martial mindset, wanting to be good, identifying with a group of like individuals and actually being able to fight.
Mastery of a martial mindset allows a budoka to avoid making themselves vunerable, they have little need to be able to fight.
A martial mindset is the mental skills that takes martial arts beyond the realm of fighting.
You only get attacked when the opponent belives he can win, if you can place yourself so that he obviously can't win or with interpersonal skills convey that you are not someone to be messed with you can defend yourself without even throwing a punch.

I take Mushashi as an example of this. By his own admission he was only ever an average swordsman and for years he couldn't figure out why he kept winning until he realised there was a secret to what he did that went beyond physical skils.

Last edited by Ketsan : 07-07-2009 at 09:09 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 03:42 AM   #120
philippe willaume
 
philippe willaume's Avatar
Location: windsor
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 317
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
For self defense I'm not entirely convinced _any_ martial art is really the best or most effective use of someone's time, if that's their main goal. It seems like 95% of self defense would be the stuff that usually happens before there is any physical contact (recognizing likely dangerous situations or dangerous people, for example, before you get in over your head, and finding a way to exit the situation before anything happens). If someone is really interested in safety, I think I'd tell them to study all that kind of stuff first, and only when they have done that really thoroughly then maybe learn something physical if they still want.

For example most violence is between people who know each other to some degree. Seriously, I think developing judgment in how to pick your friends and the people you hang out with is probably the first thing (highest payback in safety) I'd recommend someone do for self-defense.
hello
Well I am not sure you can separate things to that extend.

Sure awareness and pre-emption is a big part.
But it is only a part.
You do need to be able to deliver and the belief in that ability is more important than the actual ability.
You need to understand the statistics and what they mean are for your gender in your world location.

Of course, it is much more likely for acquaintances of some sort to be involved in violence with you. You spend more time with them and they don't rely on you passing at an appropriate location and time of the day. IE the windows of opportunity for them is much bigger that for a total stranger.

It is a little bit like saying that you can strike before, during or after an attack. It is all very clever but that really what are the other possibilities to attack?

Phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 04:20 AM   #121
philippe willaume
 
philippe willaume's Avatar
Location: windsor
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 317
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Up to a point. I think sporting arts struggle with it more than the non-sporting. They're geared up towards a clearly defined end point, the; fight in the ring. There's no need to worry about outside of the ring.

I play "guess the art" whenever I'm by the martial arts section of a book shop. I position myself close to the bookshelf while I'm flicking through a book and wait.
If they politely excuse themselves, pick up a book and stand to one side where they can keep an eye on things they're usually Aikidoka or Karateka, judging by the books they read.
On the other hand if they barge in front and stand in front of me with their back to me while they're flicking through the majority of the time the book they're reading is on either Thai boxing, boxing or similar arts.
In the past five years I could have put about 30 thai boxers, boxers etc in hospital with zero risk to myself.

Mastery of a martial mindset allows a budoka to avoid making themselves vunerable, they have little need to be able to fight.
A martial mindset is the mental skills that takes martial arts beyond the realm of fighting.
You only get attacked when the opponent belives he can win, if you can place yourself so that he obviously can't win or with interpersonal skills convey that you are not someone to be messed with you can defend yourself without even throwing a punch.

I take Mushashi as an example of this. By his own admission he was only ever an average swordsman and for years he couldn't figure out why he kept winning until he realised there was a secret to what he did that went beyond physical skils.
Hello

Yes you are right sporting arts struggle with the situational awareness and tactical positioning just as non sporting arts will struggle with the ability to deliver, what brick top so eloquently put as the rightful infliction of retribution by an appropriate agent.

As you said being a good martial artist or a good fighter is having the ability to manipulate the situation and the environment to make a successful delivery more likely.

But if you train thai-boxing against several opponent and weapons, you will have something that will look like aikido initial atemi but with a MT way of striking and moving about and you will develop a more SD orientated situational awareness and tactical positioning than if you train TB for the ring.

I think it is more a matter of teaching/training more than sport vs MA.

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 08:15 AM   #122
Matt Shane
 
Matt Shane's Avatar
Location: DC Metro
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 5
United_States
Offline
Talking Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
Ill tell you what will make people afraid of you - rub habanero peppers on the palms of your hands and then rub it on someones face - they wont mess with you again.

p.s. -
I do not recommend trying this at home, as your likely to rub it on your own face - and a note, even the less spicy Hungarian peppers stay on your hands even after washing...

p.s.s. -
I can imagine it now: "Stay back - I have habanero hands!"

Peace

dAlen
LOL!!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 08:41 AM   #123
Basia Halliop
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
Canada
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Quote:
It is a little bit like saying that you can strike before, during or after an attack. It is all very clever but that really what are the other possibilities to attack?
I'm not talking about striking at all, or even feeling 'confident' you could, or whatever... I'm talking about not getting into situations where striking is likely to even be in question in the first place, leaving the street/person/room/city/conversation/etc long before anything like an attack has happened to you or is likely to. The vast majority of the time (OK maybe it depends where you live and stuff) that seems like the first most important and most fundamental skill, at least to me. Most people (again, maybe that's a perception based on my own experience and people I know) have never in their lives been physically attacked by someone 'for real', let alone someone trying to kill them, and probably never will. If someone is honestly just trying to be safe, learning how to be one of those people seems obviously practical and logical.

There's nothing wrong with learning to physically fight, and there are lots of non-practical reasons to do martial arts, and maybe for the odd rare person it's even 'practical', it just seems several steps lower down the list of priorities if you're looking at purely practical safety-related things.

Quote:
Of course, it is much more likely for acquaintances of some sort to be involved in violence with you. You spend more time with them and they don't rely on you passing at an appropriate location and time of the day. IE the windows of opportunity for them is much bigger that for a total stranger.
They're also far more likely to feel strongly enough about you or about things you do to get angry at you or try to hurt you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 04:35 PM   #124
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Alex wrote:

Quote:
Mastery of a martial mindset allows a budoka to avoid making themselves vunerable, they have little need to be able to fight.
A martial mindset is the mental skills that takes martial arts beyond the realm of fighting.
You only get attacked when the opponent belives he can win, if you can place yourself so that he obviously can't win or with interpersonal skills convey that you are not someone to be messed with you can defend yourself without even throwing a punch.

I take Mushashi as an example of this. By his own admission he was only ever an average swordsman and for years he couldn't figure out why he kept winning until he realised there was a secret to what he did that went beyond physical skils.
Sure I will agree with this up to a point. In reality I have probably avoided more fights through an understanding of "martial awareness"....even before I ever figured out I could not fight.

So yes, I agree, the martial mindset is important...up until the point that the first punch is thrown and it becomes physical.

"Take it beyond the physical realm." Not sure I'd say that, but I understand you allegory... to me, physical is physical you can reframe it however you like, but when knifes, sticks, fist, and guns are involved it is physical and i challenge ANYONE to try and take it beyond that.

At some point I think it is important to link the mind, body, and spirit as a complete unit. You can't dismiss the physical (body) simply because you reframe or envision yourself as transcendental.

We do this alot in arts like aikido and I think it is very, very wrong to allow folks to begin to believe this myth. Transcendence does not mean "well we can skip the physical and move right on to the spiritiual, since that is what we want to do anyway!"

I think it requires us to embrace and understand as much as posssible the limitations and applications of what we do or can do or cannot do.

"ou only get attacked when the opponent belives he can win, if you can place yourself so that he obviously can't win or with interpersonal skills convey that you are not someone to be messed with you can defend yourself without even throwing a punch."

Well, it is up to him to form his own opinion or belief. Can you influence that belief? maybe, maybe not. It is nice to think and believe that we can...the reality of it is that his view of the world is different than yours and he may not pick up on the clues that you are superbad.

I have dealt with guys that it was very obvious (to me) that they could not win...they didn't hold my belief structure so we got physical.

On Mushashi I can't comment on what he said or believed, or how good he was. Like the book though and lots of good stuff in it.

Average? well it is realitive. I consider myself way above average when you consider the public as a whole. Inside a dojo..maybe average. with a small subset of professionals and some MMA guys I have worked with...I am way below average.

The key to this is that I think I have a healthy outlook on where I stand in relation to various demographic groups these days. That was not always the case. If you'd have asked me 7 or 8 years ago, I say that I was much better than average considering all demographics...did I get worse as a MAer? No I have gotten much better. the difference is that I have more external experience and situations and have had my ass kicked enough to understand a little better how much I still have to learn!

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 06:48 PM   #125
Anjisan
Dojo: Aikido of Madison
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 172
United_States
Offline
Talking Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

One could say that mindset becomes even more important after it becomes physical. Do you have the "mindset" or the "stomach" for combat, because that is what it really is, just not as PC. Didn't Mike Tyson say something to the effect that everyone has a plan until they get hit? Due to the nature of our training it would seem to especially apply to Aikidoka. I am sure that there are some amazing Aikidoka out there--great on Youtube, great at a demonstration-- who might not be quite so in tune once an adversary lands a punch, kick, elbow or two.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
If you could buy just ONE book about Aikido techniques, what would it be? Karol Kowalczyk Techniques 45 01-31-2014 11:35 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5 Peter Goldsbury Columns 69 12-31-2008 11:41 AM
AikiWeb Raffle for Mary Heiny Sensei akiy General 68 05-27-2008 10:37 AM
What makes Aikido aikido (to you)? tarik General 71 10-02-2007 08:50 AM
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 77 12-04-2005 09:50 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:26 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate