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Old 08-24-2008, 08:32 PM   #51
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I'm 43. My Black Belt is 60. I compete in judo and BJJ.

Randy Coture is what...44?

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Old 08-24-2008, 08:33 PM   #52
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Santos Flaniken The MMA/Judo Teacher I work with on occasion is almost 60 and can still flip up to his feet (without using his hands) from the guard...There is not a stud in his class he can't submit.

http://take-down.com/bio.htm

To his credit Santos is always bugging me to get in top condition since We Aikido Dudes tend to be "softer" than most Martial Artists.

It's amazing what one can do if one stays in shape.

William Hazen
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Old 08-24-2008, 09:33 PM   #53
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I'm 43. My Black Belt is 60. I compete in judo and BJJ.

Randy Coture is what...44?
Kudos to Randy. He is not the norm though. How old is Lindell approaching 40, 41? Even he is part of the elite.

I caused a bit of misinformation, BJJ/MMA is a young man's sport. That is most pro fighters in their careers are peaking in their mid thirties if they stick with it that long. With some of the exceptions like Couture and Lindell. Which are really icons for how we think about age.

Aikido you can get better with age. And I think the major weakness in Aikido is the lack of attention to physical condition, i.e. being in shape. There are a lot of overweight Aikidoka's out there, I watch allot of Youtube. In fact, I seen a couple of such guys in real life! It was last night at a local pub, they were visiting from out of town. who was out of town . One guy was wearing his dojo T-shirt. And his beer belly dwarfted mine. But I had the other guys beat. I have yet to see a serious MMA/BJJ with that size of a beer belly. But then again they don't understand the demands there are on the kind of training that it takes to "keep your center."

Last edited by Buck : 08-24-2008 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 08-24-2008, 09:43 PM   #54
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
So again I'm confused as to the point.
The point was putting the shoe on the other foot in regard to the original question. That is reverse the fallacy and assumption in the original question, turn the tables.
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Old 08-24-2008, 09:50 PM   #55
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
And his beer belly dwarfted mine. But I had the other guys beat. I have yet to see a serious MMA/BJJ with that size of a beer belly. But then again they don't understand the demands there are on the kind of training that it takes to "keep your center."
Philip, (or do you prefer Phil?)

Right. So what kind of training would that be? How does it give an older person an advantage over someone moving faster? And how would that help one defend against a grappler? Assuming that one somehow thinks of aikido as distinct from grappling?

Best,
Tim
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Old 08-24-2008, 09:53 PM   #56
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
William Prusner wrote: View Post
Why wait? If one of the principles behind Aikido is to enter, implying a proactive mindset, and it's clear that a physical confrontation is imminent, why not step up to the plate and control the situation?

Seems to me a better solution than standing around and waiting for a takedown.

W.
I said, "wait" as a symbolic representation of Aikido being defensive, letting the opponent make the first move, and not offensive/aggressive as demonstrated by the grapplers actions to attack. And to show that there is a greater dynamic stuff going on in Aikido like awareness. The grappler was not aware and rushed the Aikido who was waiting for the grappler to rush out of rage and ego and out of control and likely to make a fatal mistake. Where as the Aikidoka was calm and collected, thus in control, waiting for the grappler to commit to a fatal mistake. It is a classical fighting strategy. "Waiting" is a symbolic device in this case.
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Old 08-24-2008, 09:57 PM   #57
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote: View Post
Philip, (or do you prefer Phil?)

Right. So what kind of training would that be? How does it give an older person an advantage over someone moving faster? And how would that help one defend against a grappler? Assuming that one somehow thinks of aikido as distinct from grappling?

Best,
Tim
Tim,

Phil is fine, less key strokes. I am not sure if your are joking. I was joking. Ya know, keeping the center...excuse for keeping the beer belly going kind of thing.. ha..ha..
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Old 08-24-2008, 11:36 PM   #58
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I said, "wait" as a symbolic representation of Aikido being defensive, letting the opponent make the first move, and not offensive/aggressive as demonstrated by the grapplers actions to attack. And to show that there is a greater dynamic stuff going on in Aikido like awareness. The grappler was not aware and rushed the Aikido who was waiting for the grappler to rush out of rage and ego and out of control and likely to make a fatal mistake. Where as the Aikidoka was calm and collected, thus in control, waiting for the grappler to commit to a fatal mistake. It is a classical fighting strategy. "Waiting" is a symbolic device in this case.
Maybe it's cause i've read "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do" far too many times, but if I know a fight is certain and unavoidable before the other guy does, then I've got the upper hand. I certainly wouldn't give that advantage away by not taking appropriate action. I believe that knowing that the fight is imminent before the other guy, a definite example of awareness. I don't consider Aikido a "defensive" martial art. I don't think a "defensive" martial art even exists or would be very effective if it did. The way we practice technique in class is not realistic for what happens (oh my god, i can't believe i'm about to say this... here it goes...) on "the street". But that's okay, it's not supposed to be. In an actual confrontation, it's of more value to know that the person intends to attack and do something, anything about it before they do, rather than wait around for them to do something and then react to it. As you stated, if you let them decide how they want to attack you, they might choose with a gun or knife. In which case, you're screwed. I'd rather have them laid out on the floor, and let the police find the gun on them once they arrive.

I think this Aikido v. Grappler match-up is a classic case of "it isnt the martial art, it's the martial artist". I also believe its unrealistic and irresponsible to conform absolutely to the techniques of any particular martial art. I bet that just cause a person is currently enrolled in a BJJ dojo, he wouldn't hesitate to use any and all available and effective techniques, including the TKD that he took when he was nine and the boxing his dad taught him in the backyard, when he comes to attack. I like Aikido because the principles behind the technique translate so well to everything, fighting, cooking, walking up stairs, etc. They make me better at, and give me deeper insight into all the other skills i've acquired and will acquire in the future.

W.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 08-25-2008, 05:02 AM   #59
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
The point was putting the shoe on the other foot in regard to the original question. That is reverse the fallacy and assumption in the original question, turn the tables.
Umm....wouldn't the reverse to the original post be "do you think a grappler could defend himself against aikido techniques"?

Or are you suggesting an Aikidoka vs a grappler is a similar advantage differential to a grappler vs a gun to the back?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-25-2008, 05:03 AM   #60
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I said, "wait" as a symbolic representation of Aikido being defensive, letting the opponent make the first move,...
Quote:
Ueshiba Morihei wrote:
Same stances as in No. 1. (Fill yourself with ki, assume a hanmi stance with your feet apart, opened at a sixty-degree angle, and face your opponent with a flexible aiki posture.)
Tori: Step out on your right foot and strike directly at your opponent's face with your right te-gatana and punch his ribs with your left fist.
Uke: Receive your opponent's attack with the right arm.
Tori: Put strength in your right arm and cut down sharply, holding your opponent's wrist and controlling his right elbow. Step in to his right with your left foot, keeping his right arm against your body, and pull him to your front. Move forward and pin him to the ground. (This is called Pin Number One.) You can then pin your partner's right arm with your legs and strike his neck with your right te-gatana.
Seems the founder saw things differently.

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Old 08-25-2008, 05:06 AM   #61
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
William Prusner wrote: View Post
The way we practice technique in class is not realistic for what happens (oh my god, i can't believe i'm about to say this... here it goes...) on "the street". But that's okay, it's not supposed to be. In an actual confrontation, it's of more value to know that the person intends to attack and do something, anything about it before they do, rather than wait around for them to do something and then react to it. ..... I bet that just cause a person is currently enrolled in a BJJ dojo, he wouldn't hesitate to use any and all available and effective techniques, including the TKD that he took when he was nine and the boxing his dad taught him in the backyard, when he comes to attack
W.
You see in lies the problem I imo. It's thinking I remember having very clearly at one stage of my aikido career. The mindset that "we train in this way, but in a real altercation we'll make all these changes to our technique".

But I'm afraid it's just not that realistic. I think one of the top advantages bjjers and MMAer have that have driven their success in limited rules, is that when it really hits the fan there is much less "adjustment" that is needed. They can pretty much fight how they train. Whereas some other arts tried to make the adjustments on the fly but in an adrenalised situation.........no good.

I dont' think an MMAer will use the TKD he did when he was nine or the boxing his dad taught him. He will do whatever he's been training to do for the last six months consistantly.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-25-2008, 08:14 AM   #62
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Seems the founder saw things differently.
Quote:
Ueshiba Morihei wrote:
Same stances as in No. 1. (Fill yourself with ki, assume a hanmi stance with your feet apart, opened at a sixty-degree angle, and face your opponent with a flexible aiki posture.)
Tori: Step out on your right foot and strike directly at your opponent's face with your right te-gatana and punch his ribs with your left fist.
Uke: Receive your opponent's attack with the right arm.
Tori: Put strength in your right arm and cut down sharply, holding your opponent's wrist and controlling his right elbow. Step in to his right with your left foot, keeping his right arm against your body, and pull him to your front. Move forward and pin him to the ground. (This is called Pin Number One.) You can then pin your partner's right arm with your legs and strike his neck with your right te-gatana.
Isn't it interesxting that we see in the above that *Tori* attacks?
Uke receives
Then Tori uses Uke's defense and pins.
What?
Joined with other instances of him visiting the Kodoakn to "play" with the boys and dislocating a guys hip, and teaching assasins, It lends further credence that his message about peace -taken in context of Japan's right wing self-proclaimed superiority- was a bit different then what is commonly believed.

Self defense, and peace and how to effectively acheive it can mean many things to different people.
LIke attacking first.
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Old 08-25-2008, 08:28 AM   #63
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Just wanted to comment on the aikidoka who waited for the grappler to "charge in."
Having played with many of both test examples, I would not fashion a model over one instance.
Most grapplers I know are intelligent, self-controlled and would be assessing the situation and probably not get involved.
Most Aikidoka I've met would more than likely get tuned by a well trained grappler.
I never bet, but were I forced to place odds by what I know- I would bet on the grappler every time.

All that said. People are full of surprises.
There is a time for pro-actively attacking first-most of the time
To include; moving outside of range and peppering punches and kicks. If they do not deck the man, will lead to set ups to throw, choke or lock.
Now if we raise the issue of real aiki.
Aikido at least has the potential (not the way it is commonly practiced though) for having devastating striking power and very effective throw resistance.
I'd like to see the "gap" much closer than I believe it is now.
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Old 08-25-2008, 09:13 AM   #64
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
You see in lies the problem I imo. It's thinking I remember having very clearly at one stage of my aikido career. The mindset that "we train in this way, but in a real altercation we'll make all these changes to our technique".
That's what we also do, and I agree with you. And unfortunately, I can't see any solution for this.

I think that we should have more realistic attacks in practice. But that decision's left to the instructors, I guess.
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Old 08-25-2008, 09:20 AM   #65
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
...Like attacking first.
Don't forget to "fill yourself with ki" before

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Old 08-25-2008, 02:55 PM   #66
Will Prusner
 
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
I dont' think an MMAer will use the TKD he did when he was nine or the boxing his dad taught him. He will do whatever he's been training to do for the last six months consistantly.
Maybe an "MMAer" wouldn't. However, a sagacious martial artist would use the appropriate tool at the appropriate time. Why not use the skills you already possess, simply because you are currently engaged in acquiring new ones?

I also disagree that the techniques can't be effectively tweaked on the fly. If the MMAer is in fear of his life and sees the opportunity for an eye gouge, to rip an ear off, a bite, he may decide to use these tools even though he hasn't been training that way in class. Why would the aikidoka be any different?

I agree that the lack of opportunities to train with realistic attacks is frustrating. However, I see attempting to practice technique against every type of realistic attack you might encounter as at least as unrealistic as what is practiced at large. How the person attacks is ultimately out of my hands, therefore, I try to focus on what I have control over: my posture, alignment, extension, to name a few.

What I think is more realistic (and attainable) is a simulation of an attack with the center, not the arm. The arm has too many possibilities, the center is much more predictable and it's realistic movement easier to simulate

W..

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 08-25-2008, 04:02 PM   #67
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

i remember reading a great interview with mits yamashita sensei. he talked about his various students. he could beat them with his aikido against theirs, but in order to be able to face a wrestler, he learned to wrestle, and incorporated that into his curriculum. in order to face a boxer, he learned to box and incorporated that.

he met helio gracie and said he felt like 0-sensei but on the ground. so he learned to grapple and incorporated that.

i've met tons of aikido instructors who make it a point to say 'you should never go to the ground.' i've only met one instructor who's been able to teach 'so lets work on what happens if you do end up there.' and i continue to practice with him
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Old 08-25-2008, 05:00 PM   #68
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
William Prusner wrote: View Post
Maybe an "MMAer" wouldn't. However, a sagacious martial artist would use the appropriate tool at the appropriate time. Why not use the skills you already possess, simply because you are currently engaged in acquiring new ones?
you're right that makes perfect sense. And completely misses the point. Which is that in the middle of a fight - logical considerations don't come into it. In an adrenalised state you won't be thinking "hey that boxing dad taught me 30 years ago maybe I should dust that off". You'll be on autopilot and defaulting to the things you have most recently been training consistantly. Unless of course you acheive a strong enough positional dominance that allows you to "collect your thoughts". But at that point the fight is pretty much won.

Ask anyone who's competed in a sport art what the difference is between what they do when they're in learning mode vs what shows up in competitoin. It's the stuff that you've been drilling for the last x amount of time, day in and day out that shows up, even if you planned going in to try your fancy new sweep.

And a "street" confrontation takes that phenomenum to the next level. It's not about what it's smart or not smart to do - it's about how human physiology and psychology operates under stress.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-25-2008, 05:49 PM   #69
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I do see that an Aikidoka can defend themselves against a grappler. Often it is assumed that anyone one who is a grappler, and I am thinking its MMA/BJJ grappler is at the top contender's level. The fact is most MMA/BJJ isn't even near that level. There are a host of all sorts of things involved in the question.

FWIW: In grappling you have a short shelf life. It is a young man's game. You peak early. Aikido is the opposite. Then what is defeat considered, avoiding a grappler's entry, where he misses his grab. In the original question there was a "what if" you fell to the ground. Well if I fell, I sure in the heck wouldn't lay there. I would get up back on my feet as soon as possible.

The floop: And in the question is it assumed the grappler is at the advantage and the Aikidoka is at the disadvantage because he fell to the ground. Well what if the grappler was caught in gee...off the top of my head, say a Munetsuki Kaitenage for example, cause there are so many Aikido techniques. The drunken grappler chooses first wimp he can easily defeat, with one punch.

Here is how it happened: The grappler was drinking at the bar and was pissed because his girl friend took off with another guy and the grappler needed to take it out on someone and targeted someone who he thought he could take, say that wimpy looking guy that walked by him 5 mins ago and when hunting for him. The grappler in his gross miscalculations of his target throws a punch at the Aikidoka and is thrown to the ground.

Rewind: More accurately, the Aikidoka was aware of his bar environment and had already pegged the grappler as a threat. He left the bar and was gone before the grappler even began looking to attack him. Bingo, the grappler is defeated.

To be fair, let's say the Aikidoka couldn't leave the bar to avoid the drunken grappler. The Aikidoka is the other guy the grappler's girl friend had hooked up earlier and she had to stop and to say good-bye to a girl friend. The engaged drunken grappler of course is following close behind charging like a train going after the Aikidoka. The Aikidoka knows this, waits for the drunken grappler to make his move. The drunken furious grappler takes a swing at the Aikidoka and as he does he slips and falls on his butt on a spilled drink to the bar floor. What does the Aikidoka do next? He takes the principles and concepts he learned in Aikido and applies them, he walks a way with the girl as the drunken grappler lays there staring up at ceilings sprawled out on the bar floor.

The river: What I want to know is what a grappler does when a gun is pointed at his back? Purpose of that is grappling has it weaknesses and flaws. Grappling doesn't make you Superman.

There are Aikibunnies living in bubbles, and there are MMAbunnies living in bubbles too and I don't think MMA hasn't realized it. MMA is not immune.
Phil,

You continue to mix MMA and BJJ together and they are not the same. Mixing martial arts is just that, mixing.

Another note, BJJ is not based on strength and speed necessarily. An older person in there 50s and 60s can utilize BJJ techniques much like an Aikidoka can, as they age. It's about how one moves there body, looking for opportunities to execute a technique.
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Old 08-25-2008, 05:49 PM   #70
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

William P wrote:

Quote:
I also disagree that the techniques can't be effectively tweaked on the fly. If the MMAer is in fear of his life and sees the opportunity for an eye gouge, to rip an ear off, a bite, he may decide to use these tools even though he hasn't been training that way in class. Why would the aikidoka be any different?
THey wouldn't be any different. That is the issue. IMO, it requires little or no skill to implement these tools (eye gouges, bittling, punching). NOt that there is not skill in punching...but the skill comes not from the arm moving back and forth, but from the body position and dynamic. As Dan would say...if you do it with aiki...well...

That is the point the guy that has better skills at positional dominance and control of his AND your body, is the one who has better access to these "tools" AND will more than likely win (unless the other guy has a buddy, gun, knife or some other thing to tilt the equation).

Quote:
I agree that the lack of opportunities to train with realistic attacks is frustrating. However, I see attempting to practice technique against every type of realistic attack you might encounter as at least as unrealistic as what is practiced at large. How the person attacks is ultimately out of my hands, therefore, I try to focus on what I have control over: my posture, alignment, extension, to name a few
Might be semantics, but I see this as fatalistic really. You had better have control over your opponents posture, alignment, and all that if you expect to come out on top. I know that all the various self help books (which I love) talk about "the only thing you can really control is you"...however, in a fight, you'd had better be controlling more the YOU if YOU expect to survive.

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Old 08-25-2008, 05:56 PM   #71
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Another note, BJJ is not based on strength and speed necessarily. An older person in there 50s and 60s can utilize BJJ techniques much like an Aikidoka can, as they age. It's about how one moves there body, looking for opportunities to execute a technique.
As an aside, one of the most impressive things I've personally seen was a then 70-something Helio Gracie completely dominating a younger, larger, athletic 20-something while Helio was talking with his grandson.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-25-2008, 05:57 PM   #72
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Kudos to Randy. He is not the norm though. How old is Lindell approaching 40, 41? Even he is part of the elite.

I caused a bit of misinformation, BJJ/MMA is a young man's sport. That is most pro fighters in their careers are peaking in their mid thirties if they stick with it that long. With some of the exceptions like Couture and Lindell. Which are really icons for how we think about age.

Aikido you can get better with age. And I think the major weakness in Aikido is the lack of attention to physical condition, i.e. being in shape. There are a lot of overweight Aikidoka's out there, I watch allot of Youtube. In fact, I seen a couple of such guys in real life! It was last night at a local pub, they were visiting from out of town. who was out of town . One guy was wearing his dojo T-shirt. And his beer belly dwarfted mine. But I had the other guys beat. I have yet to see a serious MMA/BJJ with that size of a beer belly. But then again they don't understand the demands there are on the kind of training that it takes to "keep your center."
Again, be careful in your logic and conclusions based on limited observation. I can see how you might draw this conclusion.

I agree, young guys will always be faster, stronger etc, and will on a whole do better at competition. Of course.

The real issue I have is your division of things along the lines of "Aikido" "BJJ/MMA" as if some how two methodogies, (yes methodologies) some how are distinctive enough to give different advantages and skills to deal with the same basic conditions...that is physical violence. It simply is not so.

What you observe is older guys being better at Aikido as aikido as an art is all about the methodology to acheive aiki (which we all debate what that really means) (I tend to agree with Dan Harden, Mike Sigman, and the "2 Robs" these days).

What you are dismissing, whether you do it or not, is the "old guys" in BJJ that are actually "getting better with age" along the same critteria that you are using to judge aikido.

Helio, Rorian, my instructor, the Machados, Carlos, Carlson (deceased) all got/or are getting better as they gain the wisdom of age. Get with Jacare Cavlacanti in Atlanta, a 6th Dan in his 50s and a majority of the "20 somethings" that are studs can't touch him.

In a "competition" like UFC, sure none can compete with the young guys in that venue. Nor could any Aikidoka...young or old.

Make sure you are applying the same criteria and conditions and keep them consistent as you make your arguments.

You can't have it both ways. You assume that there is nothing else to BJJ/MMA than fighting in the ring. You are wrong in that respect.

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Old 08-25-2008, 06:24 PM   #73
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Just wanted to comment on the aikidoka who waited for the grappler to "charge in."

Most grapplers I know are intelligent, self-controlled and would be assessing the situation and probably not get involved.

Most Aikidoka I've met would more than likely get tuned by a well trained grappler.

I never bet, but were I forced to place odds by what I know- I would bet on the grappler every time.

All that said. People are full of surprises.
There is a time for pro-actively attacking first-most of the time
To include; moving outside of range and peppering punches and kicks. If they do not deck the man, will lead to set ups to throw, choke or lock.
Now if we raise the issue of real aiki.
Aikido at least has the potential (not the way it is commonly practiced though) for having devastating striking power and very effective throw resistance.
I'd like to see the "gap" much closer than I believe it is now.
Dan says some good things. All of what he wrote, and the stuff in bold text, highlights what I am talking about when I said putting the shoe on the other foot. Dan, captures and frames very well the anti-Aikido prejudice and myopic view point of Aikido that is really unrealistic by many MMA.

My point is to place that one-sided view of those MMA guys who don't look in the mirror and criticize Aikido. For those MMA guys who have this view to always place MMA in a better light over Aikido is very unrealistic. Not everyone who practices MMA wins in a fight.

Aikido has it's faults, the same faults MMA has. Not every MMA fighter is a good fighter, in great condition, and training realistically, or sees themselves realistically Just because you do MMA makes you a fighting god that can handle any and all situations. MMA aren't Ph.D.s, few pros like Chuck Lindell have degrees, most don't. And look at the MMA culture, look at TapouT for example. It ain't MasterPiece Theater. Really many MMA have to look in the mirror and see they are living in fantasy and vicariously through the MMA pros. It is starting to look like pro-wrestling's fan base with all the MMA blind hero worshiping.

No art is perfect, and no one is perfect. Aikido doesn't have faults. The faults lay in the individual. MMA as a sport, MMA is a complete sport, and it doesn't have faults, the faults lay in the individual. Each individual has a right to train as they wish, and pick the sytle they wish to train in and with whom.

I've rattled on enough now. I hope those who post such one-sided, baiting, anti-Aikido threads stop for a moment before they post and look in the mirror. I hope they think about the criticisms they will be saying are the same criticisms for MMA.

Peace.

Last edited by Buck : 08-25-2008 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 08-25-2008, 07:18 PM   #74
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
.

I've rattled on enough now. I hope those who post such one-sided, baiting, anti-Aikido threads stop for a moment before they post and look in the mirror. I hope they think about the criticisms they will be saying are the same criticisms for MMA.

Peace.
there's alot I could have responded to in that post but lets stick with this.
Firstly I still get the feeling you think there's a bunch of MMAers starting up threads to bash aikido. which is patently untrue. But when people like the OP ask the question - we give our perstective.

As for "the criticisms they will be saying are the same criticisms for MMA" on the face of it this seems ..umm..less than obvious. Sure BJJ/MMA isn't perfect, but that's not to say that it is imperfect in exaclty the same way Aikido is. BJJ/MMA is better for some things, Aikido is better for other things.

here's the question though. When these discussions come up - why is it that *everyone* who has a degree of experience in both Aikido (by which I mean a dan grade in aikido and at least a blue belt in bjj) have the same perspective? is it possible there's something in that?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-25-2008, 08:21 PM   #75
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Michael,

I haven't had a chance to see your webpage until now. Nice BJJ page. You guys are Machado. Your place is really nice. Looks like you have a big group there coach at the GroundControl Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I recommend people hit it.

I understand what your saying, I hope you understand what I am saying. If we want to talk about MMA and Aikido it has to be on neutral ground. The original question was a loaded one, with a strong prejudice against Aikido. Not a particular Aikidoka, but Aikido. It is evident when a question phrased in the same kind of why about MMA it go over well with MMA. Yea, it is a hard pill to swallow, but it is good medicine. A good shot in the arm. Turn-about-is fair play.

Like I said, is there Aikidoka that are Aikibunnies, sure. But that isn't Aikido. Is there MMAbunnies, sure. But that isn't MMA. Let's not confuse the individual with the art or sport. If criticism are to be made, make them fair and honest. Neither the art or the sport are the be all and end all.

And in what street situation would an Aikidoka fall when facing a grappler. In what situation would a Aikidoka face a grappler? Wow, how plausible is that? The only time I could think of that is remotely plausible is in a bar in the scenario I described. I have yet to hear about such an event. And that is why it was posted here because I think a street situation it is really rare.

If the picture that Kevin paints of MMA grapplers/fighters, it should never happen then that a Aikidoka would face-off with a grappler on the street. I really think the original question is a weak one. I think what would be a better "what if' question would be looking at something on Youtube like what David Valadez started http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...306#post214306 and say what techniques from MMA or Aikido would be used to handle the situation. That would be a better use of our time and knowledge.

Last edited by Buck : 08-25-2008 at 08:28 PM.
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