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Old 08-23-2008, 08:03 PM   #26
rob_liberti
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

All things being equal, positional dominance is a primary goal. Positional dominance is so important because it tends to result (with normal people) in the situation where you tip the scales in terms of structural advantage.

These days, I'm much more interested in all things not being equal and having such a well trained body that I can prevail when I'm not in an initial position of dominance. Aiki *can* help with that. I haven't found typical aikido to provide much help in this area.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE aikido. I've dedicated my life to it. I do think that aikido will help you defend yourself. I just don't see how it can realistically help defend your loved ones. To me that is what makes MMA so critically important. Training aiki helps me with both.

Rob
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Old 08-23-2008, 09:39 PM   #27
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Phil,

Lots of over generalizations and assumptions I think. Specificallly about what aikido is/isn't and what MMA is/isn't.
I think that holds true more for many MMA, don't you with all these types of threads?

I would have to respectfully disagree because I am comment in the context of the thread.

Quote:

Couple of comments:

1. You essentially state that MMA came from sport and aikido came from combat. Not necessarily true.

What you define as MMA (UFC type venues), actually are composites of many things (hence the MMA label). All traditional Sport systems, Greco-Roman, Judo, Free-style wrestling, TKD, Sambo, BJJ...all have their roots in Military or Martial Arts.
Sports like track and field, football and soccer, and things like, Go, Chess are martial for example too. The name MMA doesn't accurately represent the sport. There are no rules that say you have to use any specific fighting style. It is a sport, there are judges, rules, refs, a playing field and all the things that make it a sport. It should be call something like free style fighting, and not MMA because it is about fighting in a subscribed way. Honestly, I don't understand your point.

The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP), which BTW had much influence on it from Heckler-Strozzi Sensei, and The Modern Army Combatives Program (MACP) are true MMA philosophically based "Arts" have sport aspects to them, yet are designed to build warriors and instill/refine warrior ethos. Oh yea, and give some really cool skillz.

I thought it was based on BJJ and not MMA. The Marines I thought for decades used MMA for training. A mix of Karate, Judo, Jujitsu, and it included ground fighting skills too, etc. I don't know why the Marines want to switch to something that is highly specialized and narrow as taking the enemy to the ground. Why didn't they model after Krav Maga, proven not in a sports arena but by the Israeli Defense Forces. It is a MMA. Just because there is a change doesn't mean it is a good change.
Quote:
Drawing a line between sport and combat arts simply is not that easy and too dismissive concerning the importance that "sport" and competition play in the bigger picture of development of a person/martialist.
But it is, a sport has rules, judges, ref. rules a playing field, or ring, it is a controlled competition. The goal is to win the competition and no one is seriously hurt or is killed, sportsmanship (well...can't have everything). The philosophy of sports share a common thread in Aikido, don't kill the other guy or team. Gee... O'Sensei was on to something wasn't he . Boy the idea of being civilized did work out for Aikido, cause today in most countries killing or injuring someone you happen to be fighting with is frown upon and can get you jail time. The US is sue happy, dang if ya took a guy to the ground and did some "ground and pound" or threw a blood choke on him or her for taking a parking place you wanted, You'd facing a Judge who isn't going to look fondly on what you did over a paking space.

Quote:

Well apparently allot of Aikidoka DO care, as this is discussed allot here on aikiweb. Do I? not really, as from my definition of MMA aikido is methodology I use, as is BJJ, as is Judo, as is Greco Roman, as is Aunkai...all apart of MMA.
No, that isn't true. Allot of these threads are started by MMA guys, and it is only a handful of Aikidoka who care to answer. Do you realize how many people practice Aikido? If Aikido people cared there would be hundreds of Aikido people posting. The Aikido world is just not limited to that of Aikiweb.

Quote:
don't lose at any cost?

"not lose at any cost"....that is really not part of the aikido philosophy now is it?
Your are right it isn't. What I was saying in a life and death high pressure situation where you are being targeted it is your instincts to survive, to protect yourself that makes you fight back, and not accept the victimization like you would getting the employee of the month award. You will fight and not lose at any cost. Unless you feel completely over powered and in some cases over whelmed with fear for your life. The relates to MMA and Aikido, depending on your level of and how your where trained, there is a high probability under a high-stress situation of life and death if you find yourself on top of the threat you will resort to what MMA has termed "ground and pound." Ground and pound is a very common almost instinctive way of fighting on the ground. You see allot of it on Youtube in women's street fights. It is instinctive as pulling hair and biting. So you will do what ever it takes to fight off an attack, you will NOT lose at any cost. This was all said in support of Ellis's comments. MMA doesn't deal at all in practice or principle for woman about to be raped- as Ellis referred to, use a hair pin and stab into the ear to stab the brain. MMA is about defeating your fellow competitor in the ring, and if you or your fellow competitor matched up by similar weight, size, and forte become too badly injured, or at the point submission the fight is stopped and a winner declared. Which the top fight venues are televised and UFC is making money hand over fist- can’t forget the purse money either.

Many MMA guys don't think there is a world outside a MMA fight. For them MMA is the be all and end all in fighting, and nothing else could possible exist. Very myopic isn't it? It is the same type of true criticism that some Aikidokas get for having their heads in the clouds. It is true for both that there are those who are not grounded in the reality of a high pressure life and death situation. Or understand that Aikido isn't and wasn't designed as a sport or a sports fighting venue.

I appreciate your response. It was a good one. Enjoyed the exhange.

Last edited by Buck : 08-23-2008 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 08-23-2008, 10:08 PM   #28
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE aikido. I've dedicated my life to it. I do think that aikido will help you defend yourself. I just don't see how it can realistically help defend your loved ones. To me that is what makes MMA so critically important.

Rob
This view is a sincere and honest view, but for me I wouldn't choose that route. Here is why for better or worse.

I don't see how MMA can realistically help you defend your loved ones? I don't think it is so critically important. I can see if your in a one-on-one situation with an attacker and you both end up on the ground MMA skills, like wrestling and newaza can work to get the upper hand. Lots of fights end up on the ground because both people don't have any solid fighting skills. You see it on Youtube and on the video shows that show stuff like a store clerk being attacked in a robbery. Knowing how to take someone to the ground is important, be it from a throw, a take-down, a trip, etc. MMA isn't doesn't have the only way. It is a composite art, for self defense purposes know how to wrestle is equally as good. You use a wrestler's take down move and then start swinging at the head.

I prefer have the other guy hit the concrete by himself, I don't want to go down with him. I want to stay standing. That is a dominant and advantageous position. Even Sun Tzu said let the other guys run up the mountain at you. In a self-defense situation standing has allot of advantages, mainly with keeping an eye on your environment incase someone else decides to attack. And if you have to face more then one person, which is very common today. Sure you have some of the same advantages sitting -as standing -on top of your attacker but how mobile are you pinning someone down underneath you with your body weight?

What if your protecting others, and your caught up fighting someone on the ground and the other guy goes after your loved ones. Being on the ground provides very little mobility and flexibility. It is also time consuming when seconds matter. You can knock someone out faster then choke them out, or other MMA moves on the ground. On the ground you are locked in with your attacker, and ground fights and go either way and back and forth very quickly. Like I said are time consuming in comparison.

The ground is the last place you want to be. If you find yourself there you need to escape and end it fast to get back on your feet as soon as possible to act as you need to inorder to protect your loved ones. And MMA isn't the only way to do it

Last edited by Buck : 08-23-2008 at 10:22 PM.
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Old 08-24-2008, 02:41 AM   #29
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
. It should be call something like free style fighting, and not MMA
I agree it's somewhat unfortunate that the name MMA was what ended up sticking - it leads to all sorts of misunderstandings.
Quote:
Why didn't they model after Krav Maga, proven not in a sports arena but by the Israeli Defense Forces. It is a MMA.
Like this one. Krav Maga is not MMA

Quote:
. The US is sue happy, dang if ya took a guy to the ground and did some "ground and pound" or threw a blood choke on him or her for taking a parking place you wanted, You'd facing a Judge who isn't going to look fondly on what you did over a paking space.
but breaking someones wrist or arm over a parking space is ok? Or is it possible that we're not comparing apples with apples here?
Quote:
Allot of these threads are started by MMA guys
actually my observation is very few if any of these threads are started by "mma guys". Many of us respond to them, because we feel we have some info to offer on how aikido and bjj/mma sit in relation to each other - having trained in both. But pretty much all the threads are started by pure aikidoka wondering how their art will serve them in certain situations - or prospective aikidoka doing due diligence. This second group will continue to grow as the internet is now simply the number one resource for people looking for info on a new hobby. I think it's going to be increasingly important we're honest with such people.
Quote:

if you find yourself on top of the threat you will resort to what MMA has termed "ground and pound."
I'd prefer not to have to "find myself on top" so much as know some highly effective ways of ensuring that happens. like my coach says - hope is not a strategy.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-24-2008, 02:42 AM   #30
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
r. You can knock someone out faster then choke them out, or other MMA moves on the ground. On the ground you are locked in with your attacker, and ground fights and go either way and back and forth very quickly. Like I said are time consuming in comparison.

t
which is why MMA is a step up from BJJ for real world defence.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-24-2008, 04:19 AM   #31
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Phil Wrote:

Quote:
I thought it was based on BJJ and not MMA. The Marines I thought for decades used MMA for training. A mix of Karate, Judo, Jujitsu, and it included ground fighting skills too, etc. I don't know why the Marines want to switch to something that is highly specialized and narrow as taking the enemy to the ground. Why didn't they model after Krav Maga, proven not in a sports arena but by the Israeli Defense Forces. It is a MMA. Just because there is a change doesn't mean it is a good change.
No, MCMAP is based on alot of things. elements of LINES training, you will also find much in common with KM. BJJ is the base of the Army's program. Many Marines are doing BJJ as a base now as well as they are finding that it makes sense.

Quote:
I don't know why the Marines want to switch to something that is highly specialized and narrow as taking the enemy to the ground
Highly specialized and narrow???

Quote:
A mix of Karate, Judo, Jujitsu, and it included ground fighting skills too, etc.
Phil you are confusing me.

Anyway, it is very apparent you have a particular view of MMA and a beef with UFC. I got it.

MMA by nature and philosophy is NOT narrow and is NOT limited. IT can and does deal very realistically with multiple opponents, at least as well as aikido does...and i'd venture to say better as MMAer tend to and an higher level of "Aliveness" to there training.

I am alway curious if you can't defeat one guy, what make you think you will be able to all of a suddened deal with more than one?

No offense, but on the street with multiple opponents I think if I had my pick of someone to represent me as a proxy I'd pick Randy Coture over Phil Burgess.

I am betting that Randy has enough common sense to not "ground and pound" someone when he has a buddy.

Quote:
MMA skills, like wrestling and newaza can work to get the upper hand. Lots of fights end up on the ground because both people don't have any solid fighting skills. You see it on Youtube and on the video shows that show stuff like a store clerk being attacked in a robbery. Knowing how to take someone to the ground is important, be it from a throw, a take-down, a trip, etc. MMA isn't doesn't have the only way.
again, you are all over the place here.

MMA skills include Wrestling and Newaza. Are you saying they don't or am I reading your sentence wrong? I surmise that you are saying they are outside of MMA by your last sentence that says "MMA doesn't have to be the only way".

MMA is a concept, not a Style, it is the style of no style. the orginial MMA, most woudl say would be JKD.

As a paradiqm, MMA, borrows whatever works from all arts. MMAers, like myself, will go to subject matter experts in many disciplines and learn from them in order to incorporate those aspects from the SMEs.

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Old 08-24-2008, 04:29 AM   #32
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Phil Wrote:

Quote:
I prefer have the other guy hit the concrete by himself, I don't want to go down with him. I want to stay standing. That is a dominant and advantageous position. Even Sun Tzu said let the other guys run up the mountain at you. In a self-defense situation standing has allot of advantages, mainly with keeping an eye on your environment incase someone else decides to attack. And if you have to face more then one person, which is very common today. Sure you have some of the same advantages sitting -as standing -on top of your attacker but how mobile are you pinning someone down underneath you with your body weight?
Take a random survey of grapplers and BJJers, and you won't find one that will disagree with you.

The catch to the other guy hitting the concrete is that you want him to stay there. What good does it do to put him there, if he can get back up again and help his buddy? ever notice during randori that you eventually lose because Uke's keep coming at you over and over...you eventually get tired and they win?

So, the trick is keeping them there on the ground. If you are lucky you can slam the to the ground hard enough with a throw that they stay there because the land on their head or something. Again, BJJers and MMAer that have decent throws in their arsenals will grasp this concept as well as anyone.

Ever hear of knee on belly? a wonderful thing that we get points for in BJJ. Judo doesn't, but BJJ does. Why do you think that is that we give points for knee on belly in BJJ? 3 points too!

It shows the ability to control your opponent in a way that allows you to remain mobile.

Phil, I'd highly recommend going to a BJJ school and taking them your thoughts and questions. You will find that they will deal with them respectfullly and honestly. It was a huge eye opener for me!

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Old 08-24-2008, 07:47 AM   #33
rob_liberti
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
This view is a sincere and honest view, but for me I wouldn't choose that route. Here is why for better or worse.

I don't see how MMA can realistically help you defend your loved ones? I don't think it is so critically important.
<snip>
What if your protecting others, and your caught up fighting someone on the ground and the other guy goes after your loved ones.
<snip>
The ground is the last place you want to be. If you find yourself there you need to escape and end it fast to get back on your feet as soon as possible to act as you need to inorder to protect your loved ones. And MMA isn't the only way to do it
I didn't say MMA is the only way to do it. Just my opinion is that it is the best way - especially when powered by aiki.

It looks to me like you think MMA is just ground fighting and I assure you that is not true. The ability to hit someone with a fight ending strike is also MMA. The ability to choke someone out while standing is also MMA. The ability to pull such things off while the other person is really trying to do such things or worse to you is also MMA.

I am NOT saying that if someone decides to attack my wife in the parking lot that I will try to wrestle with the guy. (I might, but that wouldn't be plan "A"). Imagine that situation. What aikido technique works so well for that? None of their energy is directed at you to work with/redirect/unify with/ etc. Are you going to try wristy-twisty devoid of unification on someone who isn't even attacking you? That would make you "uke". Are you going to reach into your aikido bag of tricks for attacking the guy? What would you do? The big over the head shomenuchi chop? The big same side step while punching? For god's sake, we practice symbolic attacks. Please don't bet the lives of your loved ones on your ability to deliver a devastating yokomenuchi. I can actually deliver those symbolic attacks with a decent amount of force and I would never even consider that.


Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 08-24-2008 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 08-24-2008, 08:03 AM   #34
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post

Krav Maga is not MMA
I was a bit confusing. MMA is a composite of different arts like Kevin pointed out. By that thinking then Krav Maga also is a composite system of different martial arts, which would make it a Mixed Marital Art. I don't think the name MMA is accurate for what is seen in venues like UFC. MMA is a sport, KM isn't. KM is what is better suited for the military use than MMA is.

That is what I was getting at.
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Old 08-24-2008, 08:38 AM   #35
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Thanks for the Clarification Phil. It was confusing.

Ironically, we in the Army moved away from KM type training as our base. Many reasons and it would take a while to go into it. Bottomline, it was not the best system for a weapons based army, nor did it do a good job of building macro muscle memory.

Remember when you have weapons at your disposal you create distance and use them. When you don't have that distance, every fight is a grappling fight. Either grappling for dominance to control, grappling to create distance to employ weapons, or grappling over weapons.

FWIW, when I say grappling, it does not imply "ground fighting" or "going to the ground". It includes a range of standup stuff to include pummelling, takedowns, and other stuff you see in stand up fights.

The threat or presence of weapons increases the grappling dynamic actually at close range. No one is really interested in the street fight scenario of trading blows.

Even in a street fight, I really am not too interested in trading blows. I hate getting hit, and I hate hitting as it hurts to hit skulls and things with your bare hands. I tend to like to either be in the fight...or out of the fight. I don't like in between when either I am hitting which means he can hit too! Move in (or out), gain control, subdue, and move out of range or on to the next thing.

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Old 08-24-2008, 08:39 AM   #36
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Oh and this. BTW, I don't street fight. I am talking about a non-military situation. I also assume the worst and weapons are involved. Rules of engagement might be different, but I approach the assumptions concerning weapons the same. At my age, I don't do the whole ego fight thing.

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Old 08-24-2008, 10:31 AM   #37
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE aikido. I've dedicated my life to it. I do think that aikido will help you defend yourself. I just don't see how it can realistically help defend your loved ones. To me that is what makes MMA so critically important. Training aiki helps me with both.

Rob
This does not make much sense to me Rob. You've dedicated your life to something you don't believe will work when there comes a time to put the mustard on the hot dog?

Then there is that black hole of a concept that sucks in many an Aikiweb Discussion.

"Realistically."

I don't feel that same way at all. Aikido has saved my life on many an occasion and in more ways than one.

That being said I have allot more to learn.

William Hazen
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Old 08-24-2008, 11:01 AM   #38
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
[snip]Why didn't they model after Krav Maga, proven not in a sports arena but by the Israeli Defense Forces. It is a MMA. Just because there is a change doesn't mean it is a good change.

But it is, a sport has rules, judges, ref. rules a playing field, or ring, it is a controlled competition. [snip]
Phil,

You might be interested to know that the Krav Maga training center in Los Angeles incorporates a fully resistive, sport style fight training method, including a ground fighting program based on BJJ. An old friend of mine trained there a few years ago, and I remember him saying that some of the Krav guys there were....competing. At the very least, it's sparring style training.

Best,
Tim
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Old 08-24-2008, 11:12 AM   #39
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

My son and I end up 'grappling' while playing randori quite often. Is it still aikido? Hmmm...I haven't gouged his eyes out, so it must not be aikido.
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Old 08-24-2008, 11:20 AM   #40
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote: View Post
Phil,

You might be interested to know that the Krav Maga training center in Los Angeles incorporates a fully resistive, sport style fight training method, including a ground fighting program based on BJJ. An old friend of mine trained there a few years ago, and I remember him saying that some of the Krav guys there were....competing. At the very least, it's sparring style training.

Best,
Tim
Tim,

I was talking about the USMC choosing BJJ over Krav Maga. Krav Maga would have been a better fit. Krav Maga already has wrestling moves in its composite. Point is why go with a sport that has no combat history or testing over a well tested system that has modern field combat tested success and history. Not all decisions are good.

Last edited by Buck : 08-24-2008 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 08-24-2008, 12:41 PM   #41
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

If you seriously need protection from grapplers, bring a knife and a friend.
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Old 08-24-2008, 12:53 PM   #42
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Tim,

I was talking about the USMC choosing BJJ over Krav Maga. Krav Maga would have been a better fit. Krav Maga already has wrestling moves in its composite. Point is why go with a sport that has no combat history or testing over a well tested system that has modern field combat tested success and history. Not all decisions are good.
ummm....now I'm confused. You are saying the USMC made a bad choice in moving from KM to BJJ as a base? Despite someone like Kevin saying otherwise? What's your role within the military? I must have missed that.

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Old 08-24-2008, 01:24 PM   #43
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
This does not make much sense to me Rob. You've dedicated your life to something you don't believe will work when there comes a time to put the mustard on the hot dog?

Then there is that black hole of a concept that sucks in many an Aikiweb Discussion.

"Realistically."

I don't feel that same way at all. Aikido has saved my life on many an occasion and in more ways than one.

That being said I have allot more to learn.

William Hazen
Well I think aikido works well enough to defend myself.
Defending others (as opposed to self-defense) is a whole different thing. I went on to plenty of examples in a subsequent post. It was directed at someone else, but I'd be happy to read your reply to that as well.

Rob
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Old 08-24-2008, 03:19 PM   #44
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Picture of O'sensei on the ground (newaza). It looks like he is defending himself to me. I think if an Aikidoka found himself on the ground he/she would do something similar to this picture.
Well, this is Ueshiba performing Daito ryu jujutsu when he was actively teaching and handing out mokuroku scrolls in Daito ryu to all his deshi before the war.
This is from the period many still mistakenly refer to as "Pre-war Aikido."
Also worthy of note is every human being who was actually there and training with him-all the early Aikido giants- told Stan as far as they were concerned and knew "They were doing Daito ryu." Some even considered themselves Takeda Sokaku's students-through the Ueshiba connection.
Doesn't much matter any more, but the early denials and myths seem still to be what it taught and passed along.

As far as AIkido doing these things on the ground. That is interesting. What he is doing is a blood choke or sleeper. I'm not a big fan of the position his body is in, but that's neither here nor there. I would not consider that normal in the majority of aikido schools. Further, the manner by which the constriction is gained and held is not the same as any jujutsu I have seen or the way aikido folks tend to move.. It is done with opposing aiki-age and aiki-sage from the knees, back, sides, or if I could reposition him- his feet, and leaves the attacker's hands, arms, shoulders and body very relaxed and fluid for positional changes.

I maintain aikido has great potential against grapplers. It is, in and of itself, a grappling art. It would just take learning aiki as power and then how to control agression differently then is typically seen. It appears many are at least attempting to do it, albiet by adopting more external fighting methods instead of using aiki...do

Last edited by DH : 08-24-2008 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 08-24-2008, 03:49 PM   #45
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Just to clarify, the USMC does not have BJJ as it base. It did not develop the program this way.

The Army's program does however, have BJJ as it's base. However it is NOT BJJ and is a progressive and comprehensive system.

The Army has over 700 documented cases of Hand to Hand combat in the last 5 years. Many of those attributed their success to the MACP training they recieved.

So it is combat proven and is does work.

Yes, I agree Dan aikido as a methodology has great potential and I agree it is a Grappling art. Having worked with Ark for a weekend, I would agree with you.

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Old 08-24-2008, 05:49 PM   #46
Matt Wong
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Uhm in reply to the original question,

aikido can certainly be used when on the ground, a couple of my teachers showed how the same principals used when upright can be applied for ground fighting and I was surprised...but it works really well.

I'm only in high school, but I must say that when I was on the wrestling team aikido was very helpful.

Anyway I know nothing about MMA, BBJ, and etc. so this is just a side note I guess.

-matt
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Old 08-24-2008, 07:00 PM   #47
Buck
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Just to clarify, the USMC does not have BJJ as it base. It did not develop the program this way.

The Army's program does however, have BJJ as it's base. However it is NOT BJJ and is a progressive and comprehensive system.

The Army has over 700 documented cases of Hand to Hand combat in the last 5 years. Many of those attributed their success to the MACP training they recieved.

So it is combat proven and is does work.
.
Thanks Kevin for that. No sense in split hairs, and I don't know the military program in detail of how much of it and to what extent is MMA/BJJ, etc. I still think that what the military training (also mix martial arts) had prior to MMA/BJJ worked and had thousands of proven cases from what WWI to post-vietnam. Why reinvent the wheel? I still think Krav Maga would have been a better choice over MMA/BJJ. But, that is neither hear nor there.

Thanks for the replies it keeps the interest up.
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Old 08-24-2008, 07:05 PM   #48
Buck
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I do see that an Aikidoka can defend themselves against a grappler. Often it is assumed that anyone one who is a grappler, and I am thinking its MMA/BJJ grappler is at the top contender's level. The fact is most MMA/BJJ isn't even near that level. There are a host of all sorts of things involved in the question.

FWIW: In grappling you have a short shelf life. It is a young man's game. You peak early. Aikido is the opposite. Then what is defeat considered, avoiding a grappler's entry, where he misses his grab. In the original question there was a "what if" you fell to the ground. Well if I fell, I sure in the heck wouldn't lay there. I would get up back on my feet as soon as possible.

The floop: And in the question is it assumed the grappler is at the advantage and the Aikidoka is at the disadvantage because he fell to the ground. Well what if the grappler was caught in gee...off the top of my head, say a Munetsuki Kaitenage for example, cause there are so many Aikido techniques. The drunken grappler chooses first wimp he can easily defeat, with one punch.

Here is how it happened: The grappler was drinking at the bar and was pissed because his girl friend took off with another guy and the grappler needed to take it out on someone and targeted someone who he thought he could take, say that wimpy looking guy that walked by him 5 mins ago and when hunting for him. The grappler in his gross miscalculations of his target throws a punch at the Aikidoka and is thrown to the ground.

Rewind: More accurately, the Aikidoka was aware of his bar environment and had already pegged the grappler as a threat. He left the bar and was gone before the grappler even began looking to attack him. Bingo, the grappler is defeated.

To be fair, let's say the Aikidoka couldn't leave the bar to avoid the drunken grappler. The Aikidoka is the other guy the grappler's girl friend had hooked up earlier and she had to stop and to say good-bye to a girl friend. The engaged drunken grappler of course is following close behind charging like a train going after the Aikidoka. The Aikidoka knows this, waits for the drunken grappler to make his move. The drunken furious grappler takes a swing at the Aikidoka and as he does he slips and falls on his butt on a spilled drink to the bar floor. What does the Aikidoka do next? He takes the principles and concepts he learned in Aikido and applies them, he walks a way with the girl as the drunken grappler lays there staring up at ceilings sprawled out on the bar floor.

The river: What I want to know is what a grappler does when a gun is pointed at his back? Purpose of that is grappling has it weaknesses and flaws. Grappling doesn't make you Superman.

There are Aikibunnies living in bubbles, and there are MMAbunnies living in bubbles too and I don't think MMA hasn't realized it. MMA is not immune.

Last edited by Buck : 08-24-2008 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 08-24-2008, 07:47 PM   #49
Will Prusner
 
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
...waits for the drunken grappler to make his move.
Why wait? If one of the principles behind Aikido is to enter, implying a proactive mindset, and it's clear that a physical confrontation is imminent, why not step up to the plate and control the situation?

Seems to me a better solution than standing around and waiting for a takedown.

We train (at the dojo I attend) to influence if possible, how, when and where we are attacked, on our terms. Give attacker an obvious target in order to draw an attack. Better than waiting around for whatever the attacker decides to throw. We do want to go home with the girl eventually right? I'd rather not stand around all night waiting for attacker to decide how he wants to go about it (it could take awhile depending on the person and their level of drunkenness).

Quote:
Sun Tzu wrote:
A true warrior fights on his own terms, or not at all.
Quote:
I wrote:
Don't box a boxer... and don't grapple with a grappler, either.
W.

Last edited by Will Prusner : 08-24-2008 at 07:53 PM. Reason: typo

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Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

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Old 08-24-2008, 08:19 PM   #50
Aristeia
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post

FWIW: In grappling you have a short shelf life. It is a young man's game. You peak early. Aikido is the opposite. Then what is defeat considered, avoiding a grappler's entry, where he misses his grab. In the original question there was a "what if" you fell to the ground. Well if I fell, I sure in the heck wouldn't lay there. I would get up back on my feet as soon as possible.
Interested to know what you base this belief on? My BJJ coach is over 50 and will smoke 90% of the population. Helio last I heard was still rolliing into his 80s.

It's a common misconception. Because BJJ "looks" to be about strength people assume is for youngsters. But looks are of course decieving. It's also decieving to walk into a BJJ school and notice the average age - but that is more about the relative newness of BJJ to the western world than anything else.
Quote:
The floop:
umm...is it me or did you just use an elaborate hypothetical to prove something? Sorry I missed the point? Is it simply that the chances of getting into a serious altercation that you can't avoid with another trained martial artist is negligeable? In which case I would agree for most of us.
Quote:
The river: What I want to know is what a grappler does when a gun is pointed at his back?
you're right, no MA is highly reliable against attackers with weapons. I doubt you'd find any BJJer or MMAer that disagrees. In fact you'll probably find many more Aikidoka who think they can deal with weapons than bjj/mmaers. So again I'm confused as to the point.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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