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Old 10-02-2008, 06:47 AM   #301
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Enrique wrote:

Quote:
That's what AIKIDO (I think) is all about. I mean the training is (I believe) just an expression. The real point of AIKIDO is not fighting...or grappling (in my opinion).
I think this is probably caught in semantics somewhat.

Philosophically, I agree with your perspective on aikido.

I say aikido is a grappling art.

Your best grapplers in the world intuitively understand that grappling is not about "fighting". They don't understand this from the philsophical standpont, (nor do they necessarily care). They understand it from a trial and error perspective. The more they relaxed and "stopped fighting" the more successful they were in "grappling".

Much of this goes back to the "chicken and the egg"...what came first?

Did O'Sensei develop his philosophy first, then seek to construct a martial methodology out of that philosophy.....

OR

did he learn the lessons through trial and error, much hard work, grappling and fighting...THEN realize that it was a wonderful allegory for his spiritual philosophy?

I think this is important to understand as it affects HOW you approach your training and what you are open to see.

Tim Fong is on the right track. He spends time training internally, then goes out and gets with people that think differently than he does, fails, then goes back and re-thinks and retools.

I personally don't think that you will get far with this stuff if you don't approach it this way.

Allowing the philosophical/spiritual over pinnings (not under) to cloud your perspective of what Aiki is all about puts some severe constraints on what is within the context of aikido and what is not.

Aikido is a grappling based art...one that is practiced very poorly in many ways in order to emphasize the spiritual/philosophical nature of the art.

Our desire to overcome "fight", to "harmonize" and "blend" has left many of us with a skewed and disjointed methodology in many ways I think.

Not saying that we should all go out at mix it up or change dramatically what we are going in aikido...not at all.

On the personal level though, I think it is important to think hard about how your perspective is affected by a particular social paradigm that is strong and pervasive in Aikido.

That is...what came first....the Martial...or the Philosophy? (chicken/egg).

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Old 10-02-2008, 08:23 AM   #302
salim
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Enrique wrote:

Allowing the philosophical/spiritual over pinnings (not under) to cloud your perspective of what Aiki is all about puts some severe constraints on what is within the context of aikido and what is not.
Kevin, I couldn't agree with you more. Religious zealousness (spiritual) from modern Aikido has left many void of live application. Many simply want to "pray" away marital effectiveness and speak philosophical of what Aikido might be able to do. The real world just doesn't work that way. I always felt from the beginning, from my introduction of Aikido, that there was too many religious undertones and almost no live application. This is something I would like to see change in some circles. I have alway said, I think Roy Dean is one who is advocating for this change. His newest video exemplifies the necessity for live training.

http://www.roydeanacademy.com/dvds
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Old 10-02-2008, 08:46 AM   #303
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I think this is probably caught in semantics somewhat.

Philosophically, I agree with your perspective on aikido.

I say aikido is a grappling art.
Nice post, Kevin.
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Old 10-02-2008, 08:55 AM   #304
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Your best grapplers in the world intuitively understand that grappling is not about "fighting". They don't understand this from the philsophical standpont, (nor do they necessarily care). They understand it from a trial and error perspective. The more they relaxed and "stopped fighting" the more successful they were in "grappling".
I'm not a competent "grappler" but this "not fighting" and being relaxed is what allows me to deal with those bigger and younger guys who roll like angry wild boars.

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Old 10-02-2008, 09:05 AM   #305
DH
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote: View Post
I think one of the hardest things about using internal skill and grappling, is learning not to "fight" the opponent. I'm still working on that. Any suggestions Dan?
Hi Tim
I spend time training with grapplers who ask if they can just go at it (no strikes though-that's different training) all out to try and take me down. I never fight back and don't do a single definable waza, until they collapse in a sweaty heap. I don't think someone who just started re-training their bodies are going to get there. It takes time to strengthen and tune your connections so that speed and direction become axiomatic. I only know what we do, and I am not privy to others methods. From the beginning steps I have people moving against resistance and in short order resistance from all sides and angles. With that, there are ways to train to have your connections hold while being fluid and ever changing, then certain things to do, and ways to do them that make instant change of directed forces coming into you. The real key is learning to nuetralize and "change" fast moving power. Grapplers aren't going to use single point forces, or continue a push something that isn't working, we will change. Add in fients and dodges and their own changes and it becomes easy to see that trying to "do" things is not the answer. Usually when the body feels vulnerable its resorts to waza or "fight back." It will forever vex you and hold you back until you "train-through-it." Most people won't. They will forever continue to fight back and use waza to bolster vulnerable position changes and engage.
When you do finally train-through and gain power through a connected body the first thing you realize is that not-fighting was the best fighting, as the ability to throw, hit, choke, etc grow in both ease and opportunity. Not fighting doesn't mean you are not effective, far from it. It just means that moving, without dedication of weight and emminating power without dedication, means you're fighting, throwing, knocking out, without substantial commtiment in doing so.
It makes "holding your own" take on a whole new meaning.

Last edited by DH : 10-02-2008 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 10-03-2008, 12:47 AM   #306
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Lightbulb Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
That is...what came first....the Martial...or the Philosophy? (chicken/egg).
Very nice post Kevin. Thank you for your insight... O' Sensei is a well accomplished martial artist. I mean on a physical level he would have probably seen/felt it all. He wanted to change everyone's perspective of the martial arts and that's why he developed Aikido not as a "physical martial practice but rather a "spiritual" one...I could only speculate though (and argue)...so would my argument be the chicken argument or the egg?
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Old 10-03-2008, 12:52 AM   #307
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Lightbulb Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Many simply want to "pray" away marital effectiveness and speak philosophical of what Aikido might be able to do.
Hi Salim. I'm all for what Roy Dean is advocating.

btw, I like the thought of "marital effectiveness"

One-Aiki,

Iking
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Old 10-11-2008, 05:46 PM   #308
Norton
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Enrique Antonio Reyes wrote: View Post
Hi Salim. I'm all for what Roy Dean is advocating.

btw, I like the thought of "marital effectiveness"

One-Aiki,

Iking
Yeah, marital problems are quite common nowadays. I heard that %50 of the couples divorce in the US.

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Old 10-12-2008, 09:27 AM   #309
salim
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Ilker Topcuoglu wrote: View Post
Yeah, marital problems are quite common nowadays. I heard that %50 of the couples divorce in the US.

Oops, fat finger the entry, martial arts effectiveness.
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Old 10-13-2008, 12:13 PM   #310
Brion Toss
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Oops, fat finger the entry, martial arts effectiveness.
No, no, maybe it should be a new thread, but I think we have something here. How does one achieve marital effectiveness? Grappling will be involved, of course, but perhaps this is what Dan Harden has been talking about when he refers to the importance of "sparing".

Yours,
Brion Toss

Regards,

Brion Toss
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Old 10-14-2008, 04:16 PM   #311
Norton
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Brion Toss wrote: View Post
No, no, maybe it should be a new thread, but I think we have something here. How does one achieve marital effectiveness? Grappling will be involved, of course, but perhaps this is what Dan Harden has been talking about when he refers to the importance of "sparing".

Yours,
Brion Toss
I think that training in BJJ would be great to try out the Aikido wristlocks and some other techniques. And since you have a greatly resisting opponent, it's even better.
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Old 10-14-2008, 09:28 PM   #312
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

However, BJJ's guard game will need some "adjustments".

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Old 10-14-2008, 09:39 PM   #313
salim
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
However, BJJ's guard game will need some "adjustments".
Roy Dean has already produced a professional video demonstrating Aikido wrist locks and throws combined with BJJ. An interesting mix that looks very effective. You can purchase the video from his website. http://www.roydeanacademy.com/dvds

Check out the preview of the video. http://www.roydeanacademy.com/video/..._the_wristlock
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Old 10-14-2008, 09:45 PM   #314
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Roy Dean has already produced a professional video demonstrating Aikido wrist locks and throws combined with BJJ.
Dean is awesome, but you do not know my wife. She has "teh IT".

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Old 10-15-2008, 06:24 AM   #315
salim
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Dean is awesome, but you do not know my wife. She has "teh IT".
Oh my god. I feel sorry for you.
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Old 10-15-2008, 10:31 AM   #316
phitruong
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Dean is awesome, but you do not know my wife. She has "teh IT".
no butterfly or rubber guard then?
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Old 10-15-2008, 10:27 PM   #317
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
no butterfly or rubber guard then?
My frying-pan dori waza still needs some work

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Old 10-16-2008, 10:19 AM   #318
salim
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Women "POWER."

http://www.maniacworld.com/guy-loses...wrestling.html
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Old 10-16-2008, 09:59 PM   #319
aikiSteve
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

One thing that is different about Aikido versus other grappling arts are the lack of rules in Aikido.

We rarely talk about a biting atemi, but no rules in Aikido say we can't.

Grapplers train for very specific types of responses because they are confined inside of a competitive game. I think to use Aikido on the ground you have to remove yourself from the idea that it's a game.
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Old 10-17-2008, 06:50 AM   #320
DonMagee
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Sigh............

You know what? I'm simply going to say that shows a lack of insight into what the goal of a grappling art is. How do you bite someone sitting on your chest dropping elbows on your face?

The goal of grappling is not to lay down on the ground and wrestle for 5 minutes. It is to put you in a submissive position while I (the grappler) am in a dominate position. From here you are ineffective and I am effective. This means I can do far more damage to you with my 'sport' techniques then you can do with your 'street' techniques by the simple nature of this positioning.

Or put more simply who can eye gouge better? The guy on top sitting on your chest, or you stuck on the bottom with no grappling training to get out? If you think it would be you, because your art has no rules I suggest a simple teaching exercise. Lay down and have a friend sit on your chest with his knees under your armpits. Make sure he is sitting up straight and tall. Now try to touch him anyone 'dangerous'. You are going to find it basically impossible to do damage from this position. Now try to stop him from poking you in the forehead over and over. Now pretend he is a trained grappler who spends years learning how to hold that position.

Yes you could bite my nipples inside my guard. But the guard is not used on the street, it is used to stop someone from putting you in a dominate position. If you have no grappling training, then I have no fear of that happening, thus no guard is required. I would simply take you down into side control (notice the phrase control), trap both your arms in a mouse trap position and use my free arm to turn your face into a pizza.

The dirty moves are for use when you are in a dominate position. Simply put, if you try to poke me in the eyes while I'm choking you, i'm going to move my head around until you go unconscious. At that point, rather then let you go I'm going to just keep on hurting you while you lay there out cold. If you were a trained grappler who knew a proper escape from a choke, you could escape and try to reverse the position, secure a dominate position and then bite my nipples with impunity.

This doesn't just happen to grapplers. I've seen TKD guys positive that their kicks shatter knees only to get punched in the face while they kick me in my knee. I've seen guys positive they can gouge a guys eyes out only to learn they don't have the skill to punch a man in the face. I've seen an aikido instructor 100% positive his dirty (bites and pinches) would get him out of a full on armbar only to tap out before I snapped it.

So to recap"
Step 1) Learn how to grapple so you can defend against grappling with real defenses
Step 2) Now you can nipple bite.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-18-2008, 10:27 PM   #321
Aristeia
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Steve Nelson wrote: View Post
One thing that is different about Aikido versus other grappling arts are the lack of rules in Aikido.

We rarely talk about a biting atemi, but no rules in Aikido say we can't.

Grapplers train for very specific types of responses because they are confined inside of a competitive game. I think to use Aikido on the ground you have to remove yourself from the idea that it's a game.
Don's pretty much covered this but here's my initial reaction.

What you are effectively saying is "we never talk about much less train biting but I guess there's nothing to stop us in theory therefore we will be much better at biting than grapplers who also don't train biting" Which brings us back to Dons point. Take your average aikidoka and your average bjjer and neither are training to bite. So it's a wash. Except that the bjjer will likely have positional dominance and is thus more able to deploy whatever strategy they like.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 10-19-2008, 09:09 AM   #322
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

marital effectiveness...nipple biting...

Bring it on!!!
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Old 10-19-2008, 03:45 PM   #323
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

And don't forget the rule: Use videos as supplements to discussions.

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