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Old 09-05-2008, 11:47 AM   #276
rob_liberti
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Maybe I represented my view poorly. Here's the deal - there are not a lot of people who have "trained bodies" to the degre I'm talking about.

If I run up against someone with a significantly more well trained body than mine like if I offend someone in Dan's barn, or Mike goes into a psychotic rage at a seminar or something then I need to make damn sure I have studied live training with the intent of establishing positional dominance.

However, if I run up against someone significantly less trained body than mine which I assume is the most probable situation at this point, then live training is not nearly AS necessary. I'm actually speaking from a bit of experience in this regard as opposed to theory. Since that experience my body is much, much more trained (and there is a lot of room for improvement still don't get me wrong).

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 09-05-2008 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 09-05-2008, 01:32 PM   #277
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I think it is simpler then that. Kata/drills show you possibilities of what might happen and what you might do. This is to prime the mind and body with ideas or proper form/structure, balance, technique, etc.

Aliveness teaches you how to actually do it.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-05-2008, 02:38 PM   #278
Aristeia
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

well put don

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-05-2008, 04:23 PM   #279
Eric Joyce
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I think it is simpler then that. Kata/drills show you possibilities of what might happen and what you might do. This is to prime the mind and body with ideas or proper form/structure, balance, technique, etc.

Aliveness teaches you how to actually do it.
Nicely put Don

Eric Joyce
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:07 PM   #280
rob_liberti
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

No argument here. I'm just finding it to be the #2 most important thing.

Rob
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Old 09-05-2008, 08:53 PM   #281
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Raul,

You did not offend me. I am sorry it came across that way. You were simply the guy that walked into the mess.

I appologize as you are only trying to be sincere in your response.

Thanks for your patience and contributions.

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Old 09-05-2008, 09:09 PM   #282
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Rob,

Thanks for taking the time to respond with a detailed description of what you are talking about. Of course, we can't really deal with this subject in digits, and we have been down this road a thousand times, so really not much we say without the actual laying of hands to communicate the differences.

HOWEVER, (you knew it was coming!)

What you wrote is essentially is essentially the same thing that a judoka, or grappler would tell you is there modus operendi for being effective.

I understand you are only trying to put into words what you feel is different in your experiences. I accept that it may be hard to do.

I will leave it at the point that I need to get together with Dan and maybe you to reach a clearer understanding of what it is that your are trying to say!

On making videos on positional dominance:

Well there are tons of good videos out there by people that are much better at this stuff than I. Actually Roy's Blue Belt basics is an outstanding video that does just that!

I have a copy of it, it is first class.

One note on Positional Dominance. I get the feeling that many people think that it is something that just happens. That is....a bunch of stuff happens, things get crazy, people fall down, scramble and then someone ends up in positional dominance.

Of course that happens often, especially in fights where one or two people don't really have any skill at all. They flail and spaz aimlessly until someone ends up on top.

However, if you take two very experienced grapplers, it is a completely different thing. It is a very tight, balanced game which involves many things. Most of what it involves is centering, not being off balanced, proper posture and alignment, shifting weight, getting your center underneath your opponent, uprooting , and off balancing.

An arm drag down properly is really much along the lines of what I learned from Ark and Mike.

I have recently started working with a world class Greco Roman guy. What I feel in him is much the same as this internal stuff. Maybe not as codified, and yes, maybe not honed in on like a laser as they tend to also take advantage off other aspects that come into play in the alive environment such as speed, weight, timing. But interesting is the lack of proprioception and uprooting that occurs when they lock up and get underneath you.

Anyway, that should not take away from the fact that what I experienced with Mike and Ark was very, very useful and applicable as training methodologies. Probably amongst the some of the best use of my time to get better.

The point is, that I think many simply don't have a grasp of the dynamics of what is occurring in the alive environment that is offered in arts like BJJ, Judo, and Wrestling.

Many of these guys do much of the core stuff intuitively....you simply have to develop a certain degree of it in order to grow and be successfful.

I do think also though, that if they isolated it more, and maybe focused a little bit on the methodologies of Ark and Mike that it would only serve to strengthen them that much more maybe!

Anyway, those are my thoughts right now.

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Old 09-05-2008, 09:10 PM   #283
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I think it is simpler then that. Kata/drills show you possibilities of what might happen and what you might do. This is to prime the mind and body with ideas or proper form/structure, balance, technique, etc.

Aliveness teaches you how to actually do it.
No disagreement except to add "flow." I'm a bit of a nut on position as it can make quite a difference. But flow, and more importantly the transition that makes it happen is key. The problem with many arts are that they remain static-in that they train either one or two step kata's or hyper-limited, semi-cooperative freestyle.
I think one of the defining differences from just drills (kata) to live training is the give and take of ever changing conditions. I might be perceiving an opening for an omo plata and they might be feeling real antsy about where their arm is placed and oops....there they go and I have a pair of hips hiking up on my side that I need to respond to .
So I think you'd agree its not just "about how to actually do it", its doing that under very adversarial conditions- maybe against someone equally versed.And hey, its not even just doing it, its thinking and planning, offering openings, feints and following up, maybe on your second attempt, maybe not. Add in fists and knees and it's more complex. I think that places things in a more complex environment that transcends simple definitions of stand up or ground. Its why I have always referred to grappling as physical chess, and classical jujutsu as pretzal logic.
IMO Most classical waza-ain't gonna happen. The stuff that does, needs to be trained with someone who doesn't give a crap about it .
Learning from the flat of your back can be the best classes of all.

Last edited by DH : 09-05-2008 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 09-05-2008, 10:58 PM   #284
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
An arm drag down properly is really much along the lines of what I learned from Ark and Mike.
And the response or resistence to it is not?
An arm drag down usuallty breaks their connection, or lifts them from their hips when on the ground. Or brings them to be forward weighted on their toes and then up and down- when standing.
All of which is exceedingly enhanced and increased (either in execution or in resistence and change) through internal training. That enhancement is not made manifest in just single techniques or movements. It is throughout everything you do.
Again I suggest that you give this a while to develop in you. I believe that as your body changes-so will your asessments and opinions of its affect on you and all you do.
In that respect a grappler is different than most budo people. their harder to convince for some very logical reasons. As the stress level of resistence in fighting goes up, the more development is needed to meet the demand, and the less likely someone is to be patient to allow such a shift to grow. They don't see the results in that venue as rapidly or as clearly as in less stressful environtments or arts.
An aikidoka is hardly going to deliver the same level of stress to your internal developement as a grappler.
Therefore aikido people will see "results' first. Their developement -at any given phase- is demonstrabable due to far less stress in testing.

Quote:
I have recently started working with a world class Greco Roman guy. What I feel in him is much the same as this internal stuff. Maybe not as codified, and yes, maybe not honed in on like a laser as they tend to also take advantage off other aspects that come into play in the alive environment such as speed, weight, timing. But interesting is the lack of proprioception and uprooting that occurs when they lock up and get underneath you.
I disagree and I spent years playing with Greco Roman guys. There is relaxed wrestling and changing of body parts being used within on position, say a headlock being driven by a down weight, switching to a hip lever, changing to squeeze and lift-all while standing there fighting. What this does is very intersting to both parties. In a prolonged choke attempt it helps a wredtler not get as gassed as different body parts are assigned the work. It also has a signficant affect on the guy being handled as he has trouble resisting any single load. By the time he recognizes the source it's changed. In all its forms this is sophisticated wrestling. However, it is externally driven use of muscle. It isn't internal.

Quote:
The point is, that I think many simply don't have a grasp of the dynamics of what is occurring in the alive environment that is offered in arts like BJJ, Judo, and Wrestling.
Uh...okay

Quote:
Many of these guys do much of the core stuff intuitively....you simply have to develop a certain degree of it in order to grow and be successfful.
core training is not the same as the training you are pursuing, or I think are pursuing.

Quote:
I do think also though, that if they isolated it more, and maybe focused a little bit on the methodologies of Ark and Mike that it would only serve to strengthen them that much more maybe!
Well the guys who taught me to wrestle were collegiatw champs and don't have a freakin clue what I am talking about nor the foggiest idea of how to get there.

Quote:
Anyway, those are my thoughts right now.
Again, if you remain training it will be interesting to read you in 5 years or so. But you never know about people. You're not only as guilty as aikido people trying to learn it through waza...your worse!!
I know...I was you. How are -we- worse? It's a higher stress environment requiring a total revamping to get there. I didn't want to do it. I couldn't stop. I had to stop lifting and fighting, and re-learn through failing at something I was previously good at and going slow. It was humiliating and I had to endure friends telling me I was nuts to pursue this junk. Faith in it, kept me going when I was continually landing on the flat of my back.
I wouldn't trade that training, those continuous failures, and what I developed for gold. But I had to face stopping, developing my body, going back, failing, developing the body, failing, etc. there was no way to learn it...there.
In the end, the same power used in that venue, will make aikido one of the most powerful arts in the world. It is a way to answer some of the unanswered questions of the power of aikido.
But there really is only one way to get there. You have to be invested in it-barring all else. If you practice in part, you will know in part, it's that simple.
Most guys I know cannot and will not let go of what they know, and it bleeds into what they think they know when assessing other things. It can't be helped.
We won't know about every group now training and how they learn to develop power for a few years.
It should be interesting to see who devoted their whole selves to it and who just kept doing their arts.
The former will become the new "go to guys" for the later.
I suspect it's always been that way.

Last edited by DH : 09-05-2008 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:30 PM   #285
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

thanks Dan.

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Old 09-24-2008, 07:05 AM   #286
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I think the reason this conversation continues is because there is never going to be an answer. The original question posed is aikido against a grappler...this is a very open question and IMO the answer is yes and no and maybe. It depends on the fighters. Miyamoto Mushashi, a revered swordsman, studied cane and bo and chain weapons not so he could use them, but so he could defend against them with his sword.

If you want to know if YOUR aikido works against a grappler, find a grappler and try. If you determine there are weaknesses, study the weaknesses so you can use your base system to defend against them. Trying to learn multiple systems can be daunting, but if you use Aikido (assuming its your primary art) as a base for foot work, centering, blending, and entering; then learning how other arts attack or enter, you can apply our aiki principles to the defense.

If you are a grappler and never learn to strike or effectively deal with strikers you are going to be unprepared to deal with this offense in a situation. Every MMA fighter I have seen and know, has a base system, whether it is kick boxing, wrestling, or even aikido (DeLuca) who learn how other fighting systems apply their techniques in order to make their base system effective against them.

I like Kevin's line from earlier in this string....my BJJ is Aiki.

--Greg

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Old 09-24-2008, 07:57 AM   #287
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I think the reason this conversation continues is because well...
I think this is a question that is well....never mind.

Here is the formula for against a grappler which 99.9% of Aikidoka will never come up against in a self-defense situation.

1. Yes, find a grappler and train against him intensely and relentlessly. If you want.

2. Or you can by-pass all that long hard work and go to an outside sourse and get the "special how to" info. Good luck with that because that may tell you how without all the hard work but is it isn't the same as putting in the time with the hands on.
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Old 09-24-2008, 12:52 PM   #288
Aristeia
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Gregory Makuch wrote: View Post
Every MMA fighter I have seen and know, has a base system, whether it is kick boxing, wrestling, or even aikido (DeLuca) who learn how other fighting systems apply their techniques in order to make their base system effective against them.
this is already not the case for many and over the next 5 years or so you'll find most serious MMA fighters got their base simply in MMA...

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-24-2008, 01:40 PM   #289
DonMagee
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I think the reason this conversation continues is because well...
I think this is a question that is well....never mind.

Here is the formula for against a grappler which 99.9% of Aikidoka will never come up against in a self-defense situation.

1. Yes, find a grappler and train against him intensely and relentlessly. If you want.
Valid, but slightly flawed. More on this in a second.

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
2. Or you can by-pass all that long hard work and go to an outside sourse and get the "special how to" info. Good luck with that because that may tell you how without all the hard work but is it isn't the same as putting in the time with the hands on.
Might work, but without actually grappling yourself how do you know...
A) The teacher knows how to do it and has done it.
B) You learned correctly.
C) Even with the proper information that you can do it.

It comes down to this. If you want to learn to fight a grappler, you need to learn how to grapple AND get proper grappling instruction. The same goes if we are talking about striking. Yes, you are going to learn a few things without instruction, but you are also going to learn a lot of bad habits. Does this mean you need to take bjj to beat a bjj fighter? No, there are plenty of grappling systems out there. But you need to make sure your teacher has fought bjj fighters if he is to comment on how to beat them.

NOTHING makes me get snippy faster then a instructor who says "BJJ guys do this" and has never trained bjj or fought a bjj student.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-24-2008, 04:24 PM   #290
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Flawed, naw more like I implied it. Perhaps I should have put in proper. I agree. You just can't get any one who says they have Bjj or grappling experience if you really are serious about taking on a grappler. You have to train up against the best, those who are top end competitors the pros and not the amateurs. Otherwise your only as good as your training. Your only as good as what you trained against. Yea, too many people research then lecture subtituting that for hands-on experience. I guess it is easier to get credibility talking about it.

I agree you need to know a grapplers game is, but not necessary. See it goes along the same lines as you need to read your attacker. You don't know what any one who attacks you is capable of skilled at before the attack. You have that luxury in sport fighting.

You can study your opponent's past fight and fighting strengths and weaknesses prior to a sport fight, that isn't a luxury on the street. On the street you don't know who you are dealing with and sometimes the ones that aren't trained in anything can be the most unpredictable and thus the most dangerous.
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:10 PM   #291
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Lightbulb Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Definitely. But then, you must train for it. Ground is quite an alien place to be for most aikidoka...
In my opinion. An Aikidoka may be able to defend himself by adopting techniques from grappler's themselves. You can't rely on your Aikido when it goes to the ground just as grappler's couldn't rely on grappling or ground fighting when faced with multiple attackers.

I recently watched a 4th degree aikido blackbelt almost got choked out by a whitebelt who learned grappling while watching you tube. The future of martial arts has already arrived. Everybody cross trains nowadays and I believe we should too.

One-Aiki,

Iking
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:15 PM   #292
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Gregory Makuch wrote: View Post
I think the reason this conversation continues is because there is never going to be an answer. The original question posed is aikido against a grappler...
Again IMO the reason why this thread continues is because we are afraid of the answer. The answer is simply...NO. The aikidoka will not be able to hold his own in the ground against a certified grappler. We never trained against an unwilling opponent and that puts us at a disadvantage versus grapplers not only on the ground but I say even standing up.
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Old 09-30-2008, 11:34 PM   #293
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Enrique Antonio Reyes wrote: View Post
Again IMO the reason why this thread continues is because we are afraid of the answer. The answer is simply...NO. The aikidoka will not be able to hold his own in the ground against a certified grappler. We never trained against an unwilling opponent and that puts us at a disadvantage versus grapplers not only on the ground but I say even standing up.
Wow, I admire your honesty. I couldn't agree more, it's reality.
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Old 09-30-2008, 11:58 PM   #294
John A Butz
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Mr. Reyes,

While I do agree with the statement that a lack of live training against resistance will make dealing with real martial conflict of any variety difficult, I would caution you to be careful about the use of such blanket statements as "We never trained against an unwilling opponent and that puts us at a disadvantage versus grapplers not only on the ground but I say even standing up."

There are many people practicing aikido, in a variety of dojo, with a variety of goals and objectives to their practice, and frankly, even within an given organization you will encounter a wide variety of interpretations of the art and methods of practice, with widely varying results. Even just the relatively small sample size of practicioners that can be found on aikiweb contains more then a few people with concerns for martial effectiveness and training paradigms that allow them to use their aikido even in resistive environments. Because it is a concern and a goal for them, they DO train for it.

I understand your statement as implying that mainline aikido, as is generally practiced and perceived, lacks a live training method, and I do agree. I don't think that those of us that are interested in live training and applied, martially sound aikido do our cause any help, however, by making blanket statements about ALL aikido.

With respect,

--John A Butz
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:25 AM   #295
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Lightbulb Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

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John Butz wrote: View Post
Mr. Reyes,

While I do agree with the statement that a lack of live training against resistance will make dealing with real martial conflict of any variety difficult, I would caution you to be careful about the use of such blanket statements as "We never trained against an unwilling opponent and that puts us at a disadvantage versus grapplers not only on the ground but I say even standing up."

There are many people practicing aikido, in a variety of dojo, with a variety of goals and objectives to their practice, and frankly, even within an given organization you will encounter a wide variety of interpretations of the art and methods of practice, with widely varying results. Even just the relatively small sample size of practicioners that can be found on aikiweb contains more then a few people with concerns for martial effectiveness and training paradigms that allow them to use their aikido even in resistive environments. Because it is a concern and a goal for them, they DO train for it.

I understand your statement as implying that mainline aikido, as is generally practiced and perceived, lacks a live training method, and I do agree. I don't think that those of us that are interested in live training and applied, martially sound aikido do our cause any help, however, by making blanket statements about ALL aikido.

With respect,

--John A Butz
Hi John. Thank you for your inputs. I do admire you because you have put your Aikido training in context with reality.

As sweeping as my statement sounds It is really just under the premise of an Aikidoka grappling with a grappler.

I believe that Aikido is a martial art on a different plane and incomparable to grappling arts (I'm talking about the spirit from which the art was founded). On a one-on-one physical/combat level it is just plain inferior. Again, as I always emphasize IMO (In My Opinion)

Have a nice day.

One-Aiki,

Iking
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Old 10-01-2008, 09:16 AM   #296
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Enrique Antonio Reyes wrote: View Post
On a one-on-one physical/combat level it is just plain inferior. Again, as I always emphasize IMO (In My Opinion)
I understand where you are coming from, and in fact most aikidoka confronted with a wrestler or skilled judoka would have major problems. On the other hand, a sweeping statement about the art as a whole being inferior would seem iffy to me. Many of the original students of Osensei were skilled dan grade judoka--Tomiki, Mochizuki, Saotome, Shioda, Chiba, Kanai, Nishio---and yet they found something in the art that their grappling and fighting skills could not overcome. Saotome was a young judo nidan when he met Yamaguchi in 1955 and found that he couldn't throw him with judo, Yamaguchi would throw him effortlessly.

But yes, in our country, most aikidoka cant handle a jujitsu attack. But there are a few aikido sensei here who have cross trained in judo/jujitsu; one could learn much from them.

best,

R
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Old 10-01-2008, 08:45 PM   #297
DH
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Enrique Antonio Reyes wrote: View Post
Again IMO the reason why this thread continues is because we are afraid of the answer. The answer is simply...NO. The aikidoka will not be able to hold his own in the ground against a certified grappler. We never trained against an unwilling opponent and that puts us at a disadvantage versus grapplers not only on the ground but I say even standing up.
While I agree that the answer is no- I don't think it should be limited to groundwork. I think grappling is so profound that is can disharge most TMA'ers and remain standing. Add in MMA capabilities and it supports my contention that good Grapplers / MMA people -are- the senior shihans of the Martial arts world.
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Old 10-01-2008, 11:26 PM   #298
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
While I agree that the answer is no- I don't think it should be limited to groundwork. I think grappling is so profound that is can disharge most TMA'ers and remain standing. Add in MMA capabilities and it supports my contention that good Grapplers / MMA people -are- the senior shihans of the Martial arts world.
I think one of the hardest things about using internal skill and grappling, is learning not to "fight" the opponent. I'm still working on that. Any suggestions Dan?
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Old 10-02-2008, 03:44 AM   #299
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Tim Fong wrote: View Post
I think one of the hardest things about using internal skill and grappling, is learning not to "fight" the opponent. I'm still working on that. Any suggestions Dan?
That's what AIKIDO (I think) is all about. I mean the training is (I believe) just an expression. The real point of AIKIDO is not fighting...or grappling (in my opinion).

One-Aiki,

Iking
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Old 10-02-2008, 03:49 AM   #300
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Lightbulb Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
I understand where you are coming from, and in fact most aikidoka confronted with a wrestler or skilled judoka would have major problems. On the other hand, a sweeping statement about the art as a whole being inferior would seem iffy to me. Many of the original students of Osensei were skilled dan grade judoka--Tomiki, Mochizuki, Saotome, Shioda, Chiba, Kanai, Nishio---and yet they found something in the art that their grappling and fighting skills could not overcome. Saotome was a young judo nidan when he met Yamaguchi in 1955 and found that he couldn't throw him with judo, Yamaguchi would throw him effortlessly.

But yes, in our country, most aikidoka cant handle a jujitsu attack. But there are a few aikido sensei here who have cross trained in judo/jujitsu; one could learn much from them.

best,

R
I admire the breadth of knowledge you contribute to these forums. I guess there's really no way to question the exploits of Yamaguchi Sensei.

But as you mentioned, the few aikido sensei's who could hold their own would be the ones who has cross trained. My point is that we just could not rely on Aikido when faced with a grappler (I guess unless were one of the masters).

One-Aiki,

Iking
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