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Old 09-03-2008, 07:16 AM   #251
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I think those first generation students had something to build upon.

Think about training today internals to two different groups of people: Group one: high school and collegiate wrestlers. Group two: unathletic geeks and nerds.

How do you see it?

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Old 09-03-2008, 07:21 AM   #252
Mato-san
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
What is important is that you are happy with your aikido. If you are, then great, why bother looking elsewhere to improve?

For many of us, we are looking to continue to grow and expand what we know and find new ways to learn and understand.

In order for that to happen, it requires (at least for me) to put ego and preconceptions to the side, and try new things.

Putting ego an preconceptions to the side does not mean that you need to follow blindly. You stay focused on your endstate and test what it is that you are learning against your endstate/criteria.

Anyway, not really sure what your point of continuing to fight, be dismissive, judge what others do with categorical predjudice, and now attack with sarcasm.

You know somedays I go to Ben and Jerry's to get ice cream...other days to Cold Stone Creamery. Just because I go to one doesn't mean I think the other one sucks, I just wanted a different experience or flavor.

I suppose if you live in a black or white world, you don't consider going to but one Ice Cream store for fear that you might not like the ice cream that you have always eaten. That's okay, but unless you have been to the other ice cream store, you really can't say that it sucks and have people believe you.

However, I suppose if you were trying to convince yourself to stay at that ice cream store you might go around bashing the other one...to validate and convince yourself that you already have the best one.

However, It is hard for me to understand that logic as it is not one that I tend to follow.

Apparently some people do!
Kevin you are a wordsmith, share an icecream with you any day of the week. You choose the store.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 09-03-2008, 07:45 AM   #253
MM
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I think those first generation students had something to build upon.

Think about training today internals to two different groups of people: Group one: high school and collegiate wrestlers. Group two: unathletic geeks and nerds.

How do you see it?
Considering that I have a background in martial arts and I know someone who didn't and we both train internals -- and he's doing better than I am right now -- well, uh, I'd say that the background really didn't matter.

As people have said before -- this training rewires the body in a different manner than what people normally use. If you do the training/solo work/exercises, you will get better. Anyone. I've seen people with various body types and backgrounds training it and getting it, to not believe that.
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Old 09-03-2008, 08:35 AM   #254
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
this training rewires the body in a different manner than what people normally use.
So true, you won`t catch a nerd or a wrestler that handles his Biz like an Aikido practitioner, not just Biz, but life in general.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 09-03-2008, 09:18 AM   #255
rob_liberti
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
how close are his training methods to what is taught today.
I bet all of my life-energy that is not dedicated to family and work that in some circles it's pretty close.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Are you learning in the same way the first generation learned?
I bet all of my life-energy that is not dedicated to family and work that in some circles it's BETTER.


Rob
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Old 09-03-2008, 09:32 AM   #256
Michael Douglas
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Ilker Topcuoglu wrote: View Post
...Do you think that one can defend (him/her)self from a grappler with Aikido techniques, on the ground? I don't mean the "a successful Aikidoka wouldn't go to the ground in the first place". Let's pretend that you fell to the ground.
Just to remind everyone of the OP's question which has nothing to do with Takeda beating Ueshiba beating Tenryu etc etc, or what overall training is best for standing challenges.

My point is still that all the original aikido students were expert ground-grapplers already and therefore the above question is irrelevant to THEM, and only becomes interesting when we consider non-ground-grapplers schooled in aikido who might therefore try to use 'only' aikido techniques on the ground ... a recipe for disaster in my opinion.
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Old 09-03-2008, 10:33 AM   #257
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
As people have said before -- this training rewires the body in a different manner than what people normally use. If you do the training/solo work/exercises, you will get better. Anyone. I've seen people with various body types and backgrounds training it and getting it, to not believe that.
Internals are a big part (maybe the biggest) of the equation, but in my surely wrong opinion, I'd put my money in the collegiate wrestler and not in the pencil neck (both trained in the real internals) if they have to defend themselves against a trained fighter.

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Old 09-03-2008, 10:36 AM   #258
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I'd put my money in the collegiate wrestler and not in the pencil neck (both trained in the real internals) if they have to defend themselves against a trained fighter.
So would I.
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Old 09-03-2008, 11:15 AM   #259
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Internals are a big part (maybe the biggest) of the equation, but in my surely wrong opinion, I'd put my money in the collegiate wrestler and not in the pencil neck (both trained in the real internals) if they have to defend themselves against a trained fighter.
I didn't mean to imply that what one studies for tactics and strategy isn't worth it. If they're both the same in internals, then the wrestler has the advantage, for the most part. Or if you have a background in jujutsu, that doesn't mean you'll fare well against someone who doesn't have that same background. I look at it like the style (jujutsu, aikido, kendo, etc) is the tactics and the school (koryu jujutsu, Shodokan, Yoshinkan, etc) is the strategy.

The better your tactics are and the better you can employ them, then the better you are. But, as has been seen from history, tactics sometimes only get you so far. As has been postulated here, Ueshiba had training in judo, sword, and sumo. But, that got him exactly nowhere with Takeda. Was it really because Takeda was a better tactician? Takeda's jujutsu, sword, and sumo training had so much better techniques?
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Old 09-03-2008, 12:04 PM   #260
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
So would I.
So would I
How does that relate to the topic?
What Mark was pointing out is stated quotes and notations of where experiecned grapplers have met up with men with real aiki.
the Kodokan has listed experiences in the the book "The fighting spririt of Japan" with 6th dan Judoka training these methods, and one fellow as a gift being introduced to whom? An aikijujutsu teacher who blew him away.
I was just rereading Hisa's comments that the asahi dojo was filled with go dan Judoka who had trained with Ueshiba for three years and were getting bored. Then....
They met Takeda, they were stunned and amazed at the difference between Ueshiba's beautiful waza, and the "incomparebly rougher and more effecitve aiki of Takeda"
How was it that there "jujutsu" left them so inept?

Then we had Ueshba with his Yagyu shingen crying in the corner.
Shall we explore the thousands...I'll say it again...thousands...of VERY experienced budo men who found Takeda unstoppable and decided to train with him?

What Happened to Ueshiba, he went on to train with Takeda for 20 years. Stated that "Takeda opened his eyes to true Budo" And Ueshiba went on to become and unstoppable force himself, who used to show up at the kodokan to play, and dislocated the hip of one guy.
So there are men with aiki power all playing with experienced Japanese grapplers, in the heyday of Japanese jujutsu / Judo.

The flaw in the argument is not aiki, not aiki...do, as it was known and practiced then. The flaw is in grapplers making comparisons to Aikido™ as it is most commonly practiced today.
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Old 09-03-2008, 07:27 PM   #261
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Takeda's jujutsu, sword, and sumo training had so much better techniques?
Mark, I think we agree on Takeda's aiki skill as the "mojo" that made him unstoppable. But let me remain a bit skeptic about aiki developement as the only tool you need to face succesfully real physical encounters.

If you are trying to say that a guy who is a "tabula rasa" about martial techniques, tactics and strategies (and psychological aspects of combat) can deliver masakatsu agatsu katsu hayabi when faced with a trained opponent with only his rewired body I'm not going to contradict you, but until a see him (or feel him) doing it allow me to not to take a leap of faith XXXL size.

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Old 09-03-2008, 08:23 PM   #262
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Mark, I think we agree on Takeda's aiki skill as the "mojo" that made him unstoppable. But let me remain a bit skeptic about aiki developement as the only tool you need to face succesfully real physical encounters.

If you are trying to say that a guy who is a "tabula rasa" about martial techniques, tactics and strategies (and psychological aspects of combat) can deliver masakatsu agatsu katsu hayabi when faced with a trained opponent with only his rewired body I'm not going to contradict you, but until a see him (or feel him) doing it allow me to not to take a leap of faith XXXL size.
Demetrio,
I think we're probably saying the same thing, in our own way. Your post cleared up some things for me. I think we probably agree more than we disagree.
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Old 09-04-2008, 04:34 AM   #263
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
So would I
How does that relate to the topic?
How does it relate? Demetrio put it very clearly in words. Thanks for your patience.
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Old 09-04-2008, 08:07 AM   #264
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Check out this video of Aiki/grappling techniques. Excellent demonstration.

http://www.roydeanacademy.com/video/..._the_wristlock
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Old 09-04-2008, 06:07 PM   #265
rob_liberti
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I think he is doing very excellent work but I don't think it fits my current understanding of aiki.
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Old 09-04-2008, 08:45 PM   #266
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Rob, can you explain why you feel that way?

I agree with you based on our definition of internal training.

However, I think Roy brings an interesting an relevant perspective to aikido dealing with aliveness that is necessary.

Aiki is a particular concept.

Aikido, however, requires I think several elements to be really considered a martial art.

1. A framework or Waza.
2. Practiced with Aliveness.
3. Incorporates the concepts of Aiki.

Synergizing and putting this all together is key to what I personally want to do.

Your thoughts on why you don't consider this aiki based on the video would be very helpful.

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Old 09-04-2008, 09:28 PM   #267
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I think the Roy Dean video is excellent jujitsu, but aiki is (in my thinking) something different. It's shutting down the opponents power at the instant of contact, so that he's suddenly "floating" or else he feels nailed to the floor. This is the result of internal power. Dean does jujitsu well, but aiki is a different approach.

best,

R
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Old 09-04-2008, 10:12 PM   #268
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

....and we have no video footage or example of anyone doing this in a grappling situation?

Exception "might" be Rob John...but, even Rob will admit this is a challenge for him, but they are working on it.

I would really like to see an example of someone "shutting down an opponents power at instant contact, and/or a case where "nailing to the floor" actually happens.

Not to pick on you Raul, you just kindly gave your definition (sorry), I am just trying to understand this from a applied application standpoint, which I have yet to be able to do, or find someone that can.

I am open minded and "working on it", and I get the whole floating and nailing thing....heck I was working on it tonight.

Lots of arm chair quarterbacking on this topic, but no one has demonstrated it proficiently in a grappling situation.

Jiujitsu guys of Roy's caliber understand quite a bit about the use of core and the relationship of it to anothers body, how to establish kuzushi, spinal alignment, extension, posture, efficient use of movement.

I have gotten into this debate over the years with Dan. So, I understand that many say that this stuff is "not aiki".

I accept that.

For once I'd like to stop seeing commentary from people that say "well that is good jiujitsu...but it is not aiki"

then purport that aiki is useful in grappling, but yet no demo or video is ever provided that shows a clear distinction between what world class grapplers are doing daily and what all us aiki minions out there are doing.

Convince me, someone please!

I am doing many of the exercises that Ark and Mike showed me, frankly, I am finding them very helpful in developing my game and forming the body connections etc.

Those that have worked with me know that I am not out to disprove that is does not work...actually I think there is application (I hope), yet I can't do it, and I have had know one demonstrate out side of very controlled set of parameters upon which principles (very good ones might I add) were being taught.

I hope I am being clear. My post is not a debate about the relevancy or legitmacy of internal training methodolgy, as I got it and find it very useful.

My questions and concerns center the application of all this "floating" and "nailing" stuff and where it fits into the "martial", as a separate and definable skill set that is unique from what we see in highly skilled judoka, grapplers, and others.

We have plenty of video footage of people "not doing it", and a few videos of guys that are doing it as "waza". None that I have seen what I would call a "Aliveness Randori" situation that is commonly seen in BJJ, Judo, Sambo, and/or Greco Roman.

Stop asking Dan, he has already said his peace on this subject.

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Old 09-04-2008, 10:19 PM   #269
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Kevin,

In terms of aiki, my opinion is that I would expect to see his trunk moving and not his hips moving so much. The way he moves with his partner shows slack in his body that is not consistent with what you typically see when someone has aiki. It is extremely clear during one of the tsuki kotegaeshi where you can see shoulder slack.

Rob
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Old 09-04-2008, 11:14 PM   #270
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

thanks for the clarification Rob.

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Old 09-05-2008, 12:26 AM   #271
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Sorry if I offended you, Kevin.
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Old 09-05-2008, 01:38 AM   #272
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I can't tell you anything about aiki in grappling. Dan or Rob John would. My observations had to do with the standing waza in the video, ikkyo, nikyo and kote gaeshi. The kote gaeshi particularly caught my attention. Roy Dean enters behind, reaches over with his other hand, grabs uke's wrist and throws. Its a waza of someone used to throwing someone who is roughly the same size as tori. Against someone significantly larger, tori would have to make a much closer entry and intercept the incoming hand much sooner, establish a center to center connection very early and take uke's balance. It takes internal power to create that kind of kuzushi with even a light touch.
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Old 09-05-2008, 04:51 AM   #273
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
I can't tell you anything about aiki in grappling. Dan or Rob John would. My observations had to do with the standing waza in the video, ikkyo, nikyo and kote gaeshi. The kote gaeshi particularly caught my attention. Roy Dean enters behind, reaches over with his other hand, grabs uke's wrist and throws. Its a waza of someone used to throwing someone who is roughly the same size as tori. Against someone significantly larger, tori would have to make a much closer entry and intercept the incoming hand much sooner, establish a center to center connection very early and take uke's balance. It takes internal power to create that kind of kuzushi with even a light touch.
Most kote gaeshi that we see or demonstrated in most dojos, uke simply places his hand in front of tori waiting for tori to apply the kote gaeshi, which is not what happens in a real ALIVE altercation. A punching uke (to your face) would require entering from behind. ALIVE training of kote gaeshi is much different than the floating, here's my hand, I'll wait for tori to apply the kote gaeshi. Sure there instances when you have to adjust a technique depending on the situation, REAL ALIVE situations.

Roy Dean is showing ALIVE training. That's the difference in what you are seeing and are accustomed to.
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:50 AM   #274
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I have no interest in picking on Roy. I think what he is doing is great.

In terms of "aiki" as I currently understand it:
-the first requirement is that you have a "trained body" for internal power and internal skill - meaning that you have all of your lines of intent in balance - or you can think of it as you are managing all of he forces in your body in in 6 directions
-now, as I understand it, as long as your "trained body" is more well trained then the attacker, ALIVE vs static doesn't seem to make too much difference. I could be wrong. But in my limited experience when I am attacking freely Dan is basically ignoring me.

What seems to happen is that you touch them (or they touch your attacking hand/arm or somewhere else on your attacking body), your trained body is less of a trained body than the person you are punching (or trying to throw), and what happens is that the attackers center becomes instantly available/accessible. And none of what I wrote so far is aiki YET.

At that point - the person being attacked with the better trained body can instantly use "aiki" such that the attacker's body just starts giving up their center and has to desperately try to adjust. No amount of movement seems to help. It is too instant, and you feel like your body is kind of betraying your desire to hit the other person - or throw them (to keep things in line with the thread).

The only thing that helps is to try to start adjusting by managing your own contradictory forces (lines of intent in the 6 directions) in your own body and try to "get ahead" and "stay just ahead" of what the aiki defender is likely to do. So in a sense it's like grappling and aikido in that regard - but all of that adjustment and getting ahead and staying just ahead is all happening primarily internally as opposed to big external movements of should muscles, hip muscles, arms and legs, etc.

I think the idea here is that you get your own aiki going on, but realistically you also still have to train "positional dominance" like everyone else in grappling just in case they have better aiki than you do (you want to have the best chance of getting to use your aiki first where they are weakest relative to you).

So, I don't think LIVE training makes much difference when you have an extreme advantage in terms of body skills and aiki. However, there are enough people out there now teaching such things that "positional dominance" (which was never a bad thing to know well) is still critically important for grappling and defending against grappling. - and most people in aikido do not know it very well at all.

In the best of the aikidoTM dojos we typically learn to move very well in terms of hiding our bodies weaknesses relative to the attacker. (The worst - well are the worst for a reason!) The problem is that the moment you blow it - that grappler owns you. So people like Kevin, Roy, and many others (I was leaning there myself) thought well that's a major gap in my defense I need to close. This is not a bad thing - it's an awesome thing. Buy Roy's tapes!

Kevin if you want to make some money - make tapes of how aikido people can best establish "positional dominance" in all of the typical ways to let them practice their set ups. Just that. I'll buy it. Really.

In terms of tapes with aikido + grappling, it's interesting, but for me personally I am just not terribly interested in anyone else's kotegaeshi these days. Frankly, I like mine the best.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 09-05-2008 at 05:59 AM.
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:09 AM   #275
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

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Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I have no interest in picking on Roy. I think what he is doing is great.

In terms of "aiki" as I currently understand it:
-the first requirement is that you have a "trained body" for internal power and internal skill - meaning that you have all of your lines of intent in balance - or you can think of it as you are managing all of he forces in your body in in 6 directions
-now, as I understand it, as long as your "trained body" is more well trained then the attacker, ALIVE vs static doesn't seem to make too much difference. I could be wrong. But in my limited experience when I am attacking freely Dan is basically ignoring me.

What seems to happen is that you touch them (or they touch your attacking hand/arm or somewhere else on your attacking body), your trained body is less of a trained body than the person you are punching (or trying to throw), and what happens is that the attackers center becomes instantly available/accessible. And none of what I wrote so far is aiki YET.

At that point - the person being attacked with the better trained body can instantly use "aiki" such that the attacker's body just starts giving up their center and has to desperately try to adjust. No amount of movement seems to help. It is too instant, and you feel like your body is kind of betraying your desire to hit the other person - or throw them (to keep things in line with the thread).

The only thing that helps is to try to start adjusting by managing your own contradictory forces (lines of intent in the 6 directions) in your own body and try to "get ahead" and "stay just ahead" of what the aiki defender is likely to do. So in a sense it's like grappling and aikido in that regard - but all of that adjustment and getting ahead and staying just ahead is all happening primarily internally as opposed to big external movements of should muscles, hip muscles, arms and legs, etc.

I think the idea here is that you get your own aiki going on, but realistically you also still have to train "positional dominance" like everyone else in grappling just in case they have better aiki than you do (you want to have the best chance of getting to use your aiki first where they are weakest relative to you).

So, I don't think LIVE training makes much difference when you have an extreme advantage in terms of body skills and aiki. However, there are enough people out there now teaching such things that "positional dominance" (which was never a bad thing to know well) is still critically important for grappling and defending against grappling. - and most people in aikido do not know it very well at all.

In the best of the aikidoTM dojos we typically learn to move very well in terms of hiding our bodies weaknesses relative to the attacker. (The worst - well are the worst for a reason!) The problem is that the moment you blow it - that grappler owns you. So people like Kevin, Roy, and many others (I was leaning there myself) thought well that's a major gap in my defense I need to close. This is not a bad thing - it's an awesome thing. Buy Roy's tapes!

Kevin if you want to make some money - make tapes of how aikido people can best establish "positional dominance" in all of the typical ways to let them practice their set ups. Just that. I'll buy it. Really.

In terms of tapes with aikido + grappling, it's interesting, but for me personally I am just not terribly interested in anyone else's kotegaeshi these days. Frankly, I like mine the best.

Rob
Sure, I understand your method of training. This method of training is based on preconceived attacks from uke. ALIVE training is adaptive and trains the body to adjust, learn how to react to a situation. That's the difference. You stated, "is more well trained then the attacker." That's an idea of assuming. Assumptions are not realistic situations. You can never assume the abilities of an attacker. What tori can do, is train dynamically and make his mind and body accustom to traumatic experiences, then react to a situation. That's ALIVE training. Assumptions are mere imaginative concepts. They don't have real merit to unknown abilities of an attacker.

Roy Dean is using ALIVE training, because you can't assume an attackers ability. Body trauma usually makes some people cringe. That's why most modern Aikidoka train with this cooperative concept, that may cause you to get killed or seriously injured in a real altercation. Your mind and body want be trained to deal with a REAL traumatic situation.
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