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Old 09-01-2008, 06:12 PM   #226
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

What is important is that you are happy with your aikido. If you are, then great, why bother looking elsewhere to improve?

For many of us, we are looking to continue to grow and expand what we know and find new ways to learn and understand.

In order for that to happen, it requires (at least for me) to put ego and preconceptions to the side, and try new things.

Putting ego an preconceptions to the side does not mean that you need to follow blindly. You stay focused on your endstate and test what it is that you are learning against your endstate/criteria.

Anyway, not really sure what your point of continuing to fight, be dismissive, judge what others do with categorical predjudice, and now attack with sarcasm.

You know somedays I go to Ben and Jerry's to get ice cream...other days to Cold Stone Creamery. Just because I go to one doesn't mean I think the other one sucks, I just wanted a different experience or flavor.

I suppose if you live in a black or white world, you don't consider going to but one Ice Cream store for fear that you might not like the ice cream that you have always eaten. That's okay, but unless you have been to the other ice cream store, you really can't say that it sucks and have people believe you.

However, I suppose if you were trying to convince yourself to stay at that ice cream store you might go around bashing the other one...to validate and convince yourself that you already have the best one.

However, It is hard for me to understand that logic as it is not one that I tend to follow.

Apparently some people do!

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Old 09-01-2008, 06:22 PM   #227
Aikibu
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

One of the great benefits of Budo is humility...One of the great banes of the Web is arrogance...

Both are on display in this thread....

I wonder which one is more important?

William Hazen
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Old 09-01-2008, 06:41 PM   #228
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
What is important is that you are happy with your aikido. If you are, then great, why bother looking elsewhere to improve?

For many of us, we are looking to continue to grow and expand what we know and find new ways to learn and understand.

In order for that to happen, it requires (at least for me) to put ego and preconceptions to the side, and try new things.

Putting ego an preconceptions to the side does not mean that you need to follow blindly. You stay focused on your endstate and test what it is that you are learning against your endstate/criteria.

Anyway, not really sure what your point of continuing to fight, be dismissive, judge what others do with categorical predjudice, and now attack with sarcasm.

You know somedays I go to Ben and Jerry's to get ice cream...other days to Cold Stone Creamery. Just because I go to one doesn't mean I think the other one sucks, I just wanted a different experience or flavor.

I suppose if you live in a black or white world, you don't consider going to but one Ice Cream store for fear that you might not like the ice cream that you have always eaten. That's okay, but unless you have been to the other ice cream store, you really can't say that it sucks and have people believe you.

However, I suppose if you were trying to convince yourself to stay at that ice cream store you might go around bashing the other one...to validate and convince yourself that you already have the best one.

However, It is hard for me to understand that logic as it is not one that I tend to follow.

Apparently some people do!
But Kevin, I got people telling me Aikido sucks and they have the answer to fix it. I got people telling me Aikido is ineffective and incomplete and fake and I should try other art and my training is poor in comparison, and I am following blindly without questioning and all these holes in Aikido.......etc. Well, then my answer is show me. Put the money where the mouth is, Cowboy up, show me the money.... I sheath my sword and yield the floor, let's get'r done. Stop the chit chat and show us your hand. I call.
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Old 09-01-2008, 07:10 PM   #229
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Phil, I am with you on that one. I believe if you wade through aikiweb over the past couple of years you will see that I have stated almost the same thing. That is, "show me".

In fact, that is how I got involved in MMA/BJJ. I was "teaching" Aikido to a few fellow Officers in my battalion and one of my NCOs was doing some ground stuff. We debated over weeks, and finally it boiled down to "show me".

I had the same discussions, many of them very animated with Dan and Mike. It boiled down to "show me". Haven't met with Dan yet, however did with Mike and Ark/Rob John and they "showed me".

The showed me within the context of what they promised to teach, and I learned a great deal in a short amount of time. Having Mike Sigman use a fraction of his power and essentially blow through you with a palm placed on the chest. Me striking Ark with overhand blows in the chest as hard as I could over and over.

Not only that, but then they proceed to spend the weekend showing you how to begin to do those things. Training methods, many of which I had done in aikido, but either it was never explained "why" or it was done incorrectly.

Having BJJ guys show you how to correctly use your hips and develop your core power, to adjust your timing and movements to make efficient use of the "energy" in the "alive" situation. AND have you doing it within a few short months...proficiently.

THEN, bring these lessons BACK into your aikido (tm) training, things that you did not learn (or failed to to be fair) in the past 12 years and be able to see measurable improvement in the Aikido dojo.

Working with your fellow dojo mates who have chosen the same or a similar path, watching each other's aiki get better and better....

It sort of gets you thinking when you experience all of this.

It puts the things that Dan Harden says that really do grate you the wrong way in a different light. It makes you wonder if indeed maybe he is not so far off base after all...regardless of how you might feel about his demeanor or directness.

Show you the money?

I am always happy to get with ANYONE on ANY DAY and work with them on whatever they want to work on. Not that I am remotely even good at any of this aiki stuff. However, If your "aiki" won't work on me, then you really should reconsider who you are spending your time training with, as I am a rote amateur when it comes down to all this stuff.

Phil, not sure where you are located, but if you are within a drive of the DC area you should come on down to train with us some time.

It ain't about "beating grappler" are "fighting" but about training perspectives. I love to train with "aliveness" and I am always happy to work with anyone!

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Old 09-01-2008, 07:21 PM   #230
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Hi Dan,
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
What was more telling to me was showing this to a person who actually trained and got their ranks -from- Ueshiba himself.. Who upon feeling what I was doing, and then having me explain it stated:.
This is Ueshiba's AIkido. They don't teach this anymore. It's not in modern Aikido.
When told about the debate on aikiweb- the response was. How would -they- know? Did they train with Ueshiba?
Unless you're willing to identify this person, it is simply not helpful to bring up his (or her?) aikido experience and rank. The fact is that there are still many people alive who attended classes at Hombu or Iwama in which O-Sensei was present, either as the primary instructor, or because he "happened" to walk in on the class when another instructor was teaching. Some of these people received several of their dan rankings during O-Sensei's lifetime, but I am quite certain that not all of them, perhaps relatively few of them, would claim that their primary teacher was O-Sensei. Thus, if you are going to use the allegedly authoritative experience of this person to support your argument that what you are doing is O-Sensei's aikido, you must share with us some additional information about this person, and his or her aikido experience, if you expect us to take this argument seriously.

You yourself have, on many occasions, declined to provide details of your martial arts "resume" on the grounds that your skills, and other people's experiences of your skills, speak for themselves. If I remember correctly, you state that it is sufficient for your arguments that "your understanding is in your hands." If you believe that is so, then it is inconsistent for you to argue from authority, especially anonymous authority. If you wish to quote the experience of a "highly qualified" individual to support your arguments, then you ought to provide the evidence of the person's qualifications - otherwise, you should not cite it. I wager that you would lose credit with Professor Goldsbury (and others whose opinions you value) if you were to use an argument from anonymous authority with him - please treat us with similar respect.

Sincerely,

Jim
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Old 09-01-2008, 09:12 PM   #231
Aikibu
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I second that motion Jim....

It can't be Abe Shihan...His "Aiki" has already been discounted by Dan and his students.

William Hazen
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Old 09-01-2008, 09:33 PM   #232
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I am also perfectly happy to train with anyone in my area (Northern Indiana/southern michigan). I can obtain mat time at a few different locations for any purpose. I am not skilled in weapons, but I am willing to work on grappling, striking, aiki, or just general friendly sparing with whatever ruleset is applicable.

The big difference though is that I have experienced what I'm claiming, where as from what I've read from you Phil is that you have not gone out and experienced bjj or mma first hand. I am by no means an authority on everything aikido, bjj, judo, or mma. But I have experienced both sides, and that I believe qualifies me to comment.

So get out there! Try one, or find one of us and lets work out!

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-01-2008, 10:11 PM   #233
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I think then the issue here is that Dan did advertise that he has what O'Sensei had, implying he was the only one, and he is willing to teach all Aikido teachers. And that what he teaches will have an Aikidokas defeating grapplers. And he can put the Aiki back in Aikido. All that is the pitch. Now the next step is that needs to be seen. And it looks like what Dan isn't the only one on the block selling the same turn-key operation. It looks as if you, Kevin and Don your both are saying you can do the same thing, a bit of competition. I want to see the goods in action before I buy into it. It is foolish to buy in blindly, I giving it a fair change for it to happen. Let's see it. Am being fair because it was the same approach I took with Aikido for the first time, and everything else in my life. Please don't be offended.

Last edited by Buck : 09-01-2008 at 10:18 PM.
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Old 09-01-2008, 10:42 PM   #234
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Dan's a big boy and I am not going to get into this one. He says alot of things, some I agree with, some I don't, some I have no experience or opinion about. He can defend himself on all this. Never having met the man, I couldn't say one way or the other.

Based on what others have said, that I have met and trained with, that have trained with Dan, I have no doubt he has something to contribute to us. I look forward to working with him if and when I get the chance.

No, I am not saying the same thing necessarily that Dan is saying. I don't profess to be able to put the aiki back in aikido, never said anything about that. I have enough trouble trying to get it in me!

No, all Don and I are saying is if you want someone to put up or shut up, we are more than happy to "put up". that is all. What little I do know about aikido and martial effectiveness, I am willing to get on the mat with you or anyone else and go at it. (within reason, of course).

Not sure what you mean by "I want to see the goods in action before I buy into it". What do you mean by that?

All we are saying is Define the parameters upon which you wish to measure things. Since the conversation deals with grappling, multiple opponents and how well a pure aikidoka, using so-called aikido skills would do in that situation....I say, fine, lets set up that situation and test it as such. You do what you want to do, and i will do what I want to do and we can see who's way seems to work better.

That is all that is being said.

If you want to work something like a Jo Test...lets do that to! I love to get on the end of a pole and have someone push me around.

For me it isn't about proving who is right or wrong, only getting together and figuring out different, innovative, or better ways to do things. Either I show you somethings, you show me somethings, or we both realize that we are both jacked up.

Grappling (defined as groundfighting) is only a small subset or component of the spectrum of fighting. An important one, that people dismiss way too easily for whatever reason. It is not the only range of fighting either. To be honest, I spend a fair amount of time teaching people how to avoid groundfighting and what to watch for when fighting a possible groundfighter.

Phil, you are really missing the point and drawing some illogical inferences from the information that is being presented.

I am not offended in the least. Just don't see how you form the opinions and inferences you do on certain things.

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Old 09-01-2008, 10:54 PM   #235
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

ah what the hell Phil, you can watch me get my ass kicked 10-0 in the European BJJ Championships, Absolute, Purple Belt Division in Lisbon in January. Just want to make sure you get to see the "goods in action". My match is at 1:42. The video was heavily edited by the guy that is self promoting himself (Jean Paul "Geeza" Grodin). He is an excellent fighter, I don't feel bad I lost to such a strong opponent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGe2lXQGZZw

Note how hard it was for me to get away from the guy when I pretty much dominated the top end of the fight. Trust me, if I could have gotten free, I would have.

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Old 09-01-2008, 11:30 PM   #236
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Well Well,
Dan...
I think you took my words out of context I said Our Aikido (not Aikido) is technically good and I looked forward to adding an internal practice to it. I have trained with some internal folks... experianced Aiki "Power" ( Ever practice Ryu Te...Good Bagua...Gung Fu San Soo LOL) There is plenty of Documentation about the technical aspect of our Aikido out there. So I will just make the natural assumption you're completely ignorant of it other than You Tube and decided to lump it in with everything else.....
....I do partially agree with both you and Don. There is allot of Non Martial Aikido out there...but to dismiss all Aikido as "ineffective" is just plain ignorant
William Hazen
Hi William
This is what I said
Quote:
1. Anyone asks me the best martial training to do? Aikido or Daito ryu? I tell them to go do judo, BJJ or MMA.

2. Anyone asks me what the finest skill in the world is? I tell them internal power / aiki.

What William and most others misunderstand is nowhere in that equation would I EVER.... E-V-E-R recommend training in Aikido™ to attain those goals.

Not under any single person I have ever met, or know or have heard of. I most certainly do NOT agree with Wiliam that technically (Aikido™) is pretty darn good to begin with. In fact I think Aikido suffers serious technical flaws and even foundational errors in its approach to training a "martial" method to anyone.
As I stated I was arguing both sides
In an ironic twist- I said this in the same post.
Quote:
And were someone to ever, hopefully, finally, please God someday........express a real understanding of my views- they would see I am advocating both sides!!!
Not one....
Not the other....
Both
I was saying I have never seen it in those I had felt or had heard of, even some who keep telling me to meet this or that guy-who winds up having a small fraction of what they were supposed to have-aiki, and doesnlt train to use it with power in a more MMA environment. I'm optimistic that sooner or later I might find one of you with a really connected body and power and who do or have trained MMA...I just haven't yet.
You want to name some aikido teachers who you are sure have something that's going to impress me in both venues? I'm all ears and will look forward to meeting them-and seeing if their students have it too.

What's more I will share what I know and try to get them to share their teaching methods. If you notice-I, we, they, point to others in all types of arts including Internal Chinese arts. It really can't be about individuals, it has to be about "it" and various places we can go to get it and learn it and place it back in the arts.

Training time to start to get it
Quote:
"This is not O'Sensei's" Aikido Well lets address the elephant in the room since you brought it up. According to you Dan You practice 8 hours a day everyday and have for the last 20+ years. I humbly submit this is the ONLY reason you are so far advanced. This was the primary reason O Sensei was so good He lived breathed and slept Aiki everyday.

Simply put it's the man...O'Sensei had a natural talent and he worked on it all day everyday. A True Budoka. Same with you. You put in the work you get the results. According to some that know you-you had some natural ability at the beginning and you just simply worked as hard as you could to develop it.

You got me beat there. I work out at best perhaps 1 to 2 hours everyday and that is evident when I step on the mat. Within seconds of working with someone I know how much time they put in to thier respective practice.
As far as the time-in to get it. I think citing eight hour a day training regimens puts people off. We train that way twice a week. the rest is our personal time training at home. I probably only train an hour a day, some days two or three with my son. I don't ever train eight hours a day-as in every day!!!
The good news is knowing that -getting it- doesn't require that much time. Further, anyone *can* get it -to various degrees- training twice a week in a dojo with work at home.You just need to know the right things to train. As has been stated here I have plenty of folks- who are evidence of that. I think someone should ask Mike or Ark what there personal regimens were are various stages, and then their students success at getting it.

Perhaps the most important message being missed is that there are hundreds training and gaining these skills without being superhuman or unusual in any way.

Live training
The second part of the equation is who chooses to train in a live environment. Nothing is going to prepare someone for grappling as well as grappling can. There is simply no argument worth the having here. If you don't fight or haven't fought-you're just kidding yourself about your preparedness. That's a choice you make and you go train. If you put in the work-you get results in more normal time frames. Its never about being as good as this or that person, its about being a better you.

Experiences
Providing anecdotal evidence is never the best we can hope for. I grant you that, but it is all I am willing to provide until people want to come forward. Were I presenting a paper or making a case I would certainly use a different method. Howver, we are discussing a topic that isn't empirical yet and can only be vetted person by person. Some come forward on their own, some have written in here others are not willing to do so. Just now I am thinking of the words of a teacher with 40 yrs in aikido calling this training "Life changing" and being what he has been searching for his entire career. It is worth mentioning as it addresses -once again- the validity of the method, not the individual but the method that, many are advocating.
While that may not satisfy you, or Jim, it continues to provide further impetus to have folks go out and test the type of training I am advocating -and try it.
How I do know?
Folks continue to have enough trust and faith in what many voices (who do not even know each other) have written and reported -to want to pursue training it themselves. There is a sense of credibility and trust in what we are collectively saying. At any rate, in the end, it continues to be beneficial to people going out and looking for those to train with, and making further discoveries.
Some people trust in what they are reading, then make contacts to go out to train and make judgements of their own. .
Others doubt it or don't consider it evidence of any sort for them to consider this. That's fine by me as well. The rest of us will just continue training.

Last edited by DH : 09-01-2008 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 09-02-2008, 05:46 AM   #237
rob_liberti
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

The first question was: Is Dan a nut who has no skills what-so-ever? The fact remains - no one has met Dan and said "that guy is fake". No one. People we all know here on aikiweb - like I believe that even Ron Tisdale went to visit him. He is not a liar.

The question is now - is what Dan has SO GREAT that that it can defeat MMA to the point that it must be the same skillset that O sensei used in his martial application.

Well, first clue to that puzzle is that Dan's place is a MMA place powered by aiki. Second clue, Dan learned from the same line of people who taught O sensei. Third clue - everyone and I mean everyone who has any idea of what Osensei could do from personal account to what his writings must have meant - that has met Dan all agree that what is being practiced there MUST be what Osensei was doing. You put it together...

Then you look at the people who have been arguing with Dan the most recently. One guy stated 45 years of training. I looked at his web site and it says over 30 years of martial arts. I considered that his web site hasn't been updated in the last 15 years (until I thought about the fact that 15 years ago was 1993 when the internet was not like it is today!). Don't be on THAT side of the arguments. Really, it's just not a good place to be.

Haven't we wasted enough time? Can we start from a cautiously optimistic place that Dan _probably_ has something incredible to offer and just get him to spend his time on aikiweb giving us useful advice about dealing with grappling or whatever else is helpful (you know the entire point of aikiweb - as opposed to the place for arguing silly and unhelpful things).

Rob
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Old 09-02-2008, 07:06 AM   #238
Buck
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Thanks Kevin for the clip. That was very helpful. I don't have time right now to really discuss your performance. But again thanks that was important to see.

Rob,

Testimonials, clues, guessing etc. are good to get attention and wanting a peak at it, but isn't a good subsitute for not seeing it. Often things heard aren't what they seem, it is natural to see what it is, will I be impressed or disappointed, who knows until I see it. Really, we are in the modern age of communication, now it isn't difficult to get a sample is it? If some is going to go out there and say what has been said with great confidence you just gotta see it. Your curiosity is up and interest is up, and now Dan has my attention, now I gotta see it. We are past talk, aren't we? Stop the teasing.
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Old 09-02-2008, 09:03 AM   #239
rob_liberti
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I sincerely doubt that seeing it will help. Go feel it the first moment you can. There are many seminars that Mike and Aukuzawa are doing. There are places that train this way now.

My point here is that until then, instead of endless debates. Try assuming there is probably something important here and lets focus on what we can get out discussions with Dan, Mike, and Rob J.

For instance, wouldn't it be more productive to ask Dan what he suggests people like you do in the mean time if you are interested in ever eventually using your aikido against grappling?

Rob
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Old 09-02-2008, 11:27 AM   #240
Aikibu
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Please Rob and Dan,

I have never doubted Dan's ability...

And to answer both Dan and you in short.

This is the Aikiweb... and yes Dan you are presenting a paper...There are some of us who will never get to experience what you have to offer personally, or through some of your students. We can only go by what you present here. Given the number of modern media tools available I just don't understand your "reasons" considering the amount of energy you put into advocating your methods and how simple you state this practice is to learn. Let's just take a look at your "peers"

Mike Sigman-Online with vids
Ark- Online with vids
Obata Sensei-Online with vids
Kondo Shihan-Online with vids
Mark Murray!!! Online with vids

There are dozens and dozens of others.

Like I said you spend allot of time and energy advocating "it" here... but respectfully... You marginalize those out there who don't have any "first hand experience" and may never experiance it. Not only that but I personally have spent way too much time in this beautiful life refuting arguments about how Aikido is worthless to one degree or another.. When I know dozens if not hundreds or thousands who have found Aikido as they practice it very effective.

If you found another way to discuss your concerns without denigrating Yudansha who do not practice the way you do, and backed it up with helpful 'presentations" (something to his credit Mark Murray has tried to do)
We could get on with living beautiful lives and stop wasting them as blind men advocating our part of the elephant. With all the tools available that conundrum is easily solved.

Let's see what you're talking about.

William Hazen
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Old 09-02-2008, 11:57 AM   #241
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Mike Sigman-Online with vids
Ark- Online with vids
Obata Sensei-Online with vids
Kondo Shihan-Online with vids
Mark Murray!!! Online with vids
I was expecting at least a couple of links William!
Please? (Seen lots of Ark ones already)
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Old 09-02-2008, 12:04 PM   #242
rob_liberti
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I kind of really want more people to discsuss aikido defending against grappling so I created a thread dedicated to the goal of convincing Dan to change his mind about putting himself on video:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15053

Thanks,
Rob
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Old 09-02-2008, 04:10 PM   #243
Michael Douglas
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I kind of really want more people to discsuss aikido defending against grappling ...
Oh yeah, the last few pages made me forget what I really wanted to comment on in this thread.
So, back on-topic ;
Since most(all?) of the 'original' aikidoka were experts at judo/jiu jitsu before studying aikido, the ground-grappling question becomes rather pointless ... they would excel at dealing with grappling standing or on the ground using their own expertise honed through both jiu jitsu and aikido training.
The question only becomes worth discussing if we get aikidoka who were not already jiu jitsu experts before studying aikido ... and are such students a valid representation of the art? (a question, not rhetorical)
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Old 09-02-2008, 04:50 PM   #244
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

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Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Oh yeah, the last few pages made me forget what I really wanted to comment on in this thread.
So, back on-topic ;
Since most(all?) of the 'original' aikidoka were experts at judo/jiu jitsu before studying aikido, the ground-grappling question becomes rather pointless ... they would excel at dealing with grappling standing or on the ground using their own expertise honed through both jiu jitsu and aikido training.
The question only becomes worth discussing if we get aikidoka who were not already jiu jitsu experts before studying aikido ... and are such students a valid representation of the art? (a question, not rhetorical)
I think you'd have to post historical data to actually back that claim up. Ueshiba studied a bit of other martial arts before meeting Takeda but that didn't do him any good with Takeda. At all.

Shioda handled other martial artists with ease.

Tomiki may have been ranked in Judo but couldn't best Ueshiba.

Ueshiba handled Tenryu with ease and Ueshiba didn't have a sumo background.

In fact, there are lots of evidence out there for some of the big names in Aikido handling other martial artists where they had no background.

So, the argument that some may have been experts at jujutsu before aikido doesn't really hold any water. They also had no expertise in other arts, yet fared just as well against them. So much so for Ueshiba, that high ranking martial artists came to him.

It wasn't the jujutsu background that gave them their skill. It was the Daito ryu aiki passed down to Ueshiba and then to some of his students.
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Old 09-02-2008, 05:21 PM   #245
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Michael Douglas wrote:

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Since most(all?) of the 'original' aikidoka were experts at judo/jiu jitsu before studying aikido, the ground-grappling question becomes rather pointless ... they would excel at dealing with grappling standing or on the ground using their own expertise honed through both jiu jitsu and aikido training.
I am no historical expert of what they did and didn't. I would be inclined to say that many did have this background and it would have had to count for something.

Although I would also have to agree with Mark. I have so very good aikido instructors/sensei that have no grappling background and do very respectable tactically at what they do. So don't think it is always necessary.

That said, it is a range of combat. It is one that we tend to not focus on in aikido. That range of combat allows for a certain degree of aliveness to occur with a great deal of connectedness between two individuals. It has been most helpful for many of us in the process.

My personal experiences have been very favorable to this range of skills in improving my "mid range" skills concentrated on in aikido. I think, as many other do, that incorporating this range into the mix more is positive to aikido, not negative. that is, it does not take away from the study.

Anyway, I suppose there are many ways to study. These are just my opinions and observations.

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Old 09-02-2008, 06:55 PM   #246
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I think you'd have to post historical data to actually back that claim up.
Let's see...

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Shioda handled other martial artists with ease.
"On May 23, 1932, the 17-year-old Gozo appeared at the Ueshiba dojo to witness a demonstration. Having had a strong background in both kendo and judo, the confident young Shioda was skeptical of the clean, controlled techniques he saw performed. Sensing the lad's unimpressed attitude, Ueshiba then invited him to attack and, in the blink of an eye, the young man found himself on his back rubbing his head after an unsuccessful kick attempt."
Morihei Ueshiba and Gozo Shioda by Stanley Pranin

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Tomiki may have been ranked in Judo but couldn't best Ueshiba.
"He (Tomiki) was a Shodan (first degree black-belt) when he entered Waseda University but, because of his outstanding performances, he was promoted each year and was a Yondan (4th degree black belt), by the time he graduated from Waseda. In 1926, while still a student at Waseda, he was introduced to Master Morihei Ueshiba, who was famous for his Aiki-bujutsu. "
Tomiki Aikido History, by Yoji Kondo (biography by Fumiaki Shishida)
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Ueshiba handled Tenryu with ease and Ueshiba didn't have a sumo background.
"Around the age of seven Morihei was sent to Jizodera, a nearby Buddhist temple of the Shingon sect, to study the Confucian classics and Buddhist scriptures. He was enthralled by the miracle tales told of the Buddhist saint Kobo Daishi, and he began to experience recurring dreams, a tendency that caused his father some concern. Yoroku therefore encouraged him in more physical pursuits, and taught him sumo and swimming."
The Life of Morihei Ueshiba (by Kisshomaru Ueshiba), Budo - Teachings of the Founder of Aikido. Kodansha Int. ISBN 4-7700-2070-8

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It wasn't the jujutsu background that gave them their skill. It was the Daito ryu aiki passed down to Ueshiba and then to some of his students.
Sure, but data available shows the people you cited had previous experience in martial arts. Even if it was not relevant to the skills they developed under O Sensei, they had it, like most of people who attended school in Japan at that time.

"Several factors combined to keep the arts alive through this period. The Dai Nippon Butokukai was organized in 1895 and in 1911 formed a specialty school which hired many of the budo experts of that generation. In the same year Kendo and Judo were introduced into the middle schools as compulsory exercise. This resulted in the budo being taught to the general public which allowed some of the old teachers to make a new living."
THE IAIDO NEWSLETTER Volume 2 number 4 absolute #6 Sept 1990
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Old 09-02-2008, 07:03 PM   #247
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Game Set Match....

William Hazen
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Old 09-02-2008, 09:17 PM   #248
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Let's see...
I could actually see this being a factor. Why bother teaching them the things they already knew. They knew the value of 'aliveness', they had the background in those areas already. Now teach them these new things and let them learn how to make it part of them. The question is, how much of gaining that skill was the person, the person's background in previous arts, or in Ueshiba's training methods. And if the last was the greatest part, how close are his training methods to what is taught today.

The question is? Are you learning in the same way the first generation learned?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:14 PM   #249
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

you know...it makes sense to me! I don't know how you can really grasp an understanding of it without the aliveness aspect, or at least learning from someone who has a good foundation in it.

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Old 09-03-2008, 07:05 AM   #250
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
I could actually see this being a factor. Why bother teaching them the things they already knew. They knew the value of 'aliveness', they had the background in those areas already. Now teach them these new things and let them learn how to make it part of them. The question is, how much of gaining that skill was the person, the person's background in previous arts, or in Ueshiba's training methods. And if the last was the greatest part, how close are his training methods to what is taught today.

The question is? Are you learning in the same way the first generation learned?
Consider this, Don. If what some of the people here have postulated about having a jujutsu background is true, then why did Takeda decimate Ueshiba on their first meeting? And then, after training with Takeda, why did Ueshiba decimate Tomiki on their first meeting? After all, both Ueshiba and Tomiki had "solid" backgrounds in jujutsu of some sort. Shioda had, as has been posted, a background in Judo and Kendo. He didn't stand a chance against Ueshiba. Now, if backgrounds count for something, why is it that *all* these people (who had jujutsu/judo/kendo backgrounds) came upon someone trained in Daito ryu (seriously, not just the thousands that attended Takeda's seminars), that these people didn't stand a chance at all. They got manhandled completely.

And to drive the point home even more ... once these people started learning Daito ryu, they started manhandling everyone else. And now, people are saying, well, the background in jujutsu helped? Quite a few of these people had extensive backgrounds in jujutsu/judo/kendo before meeting anyone with a serious Daito ryu background. It certainly didn't help them then, why in the world would someone think it would help them after?

It wasn't Ueshiba's training methods, per se. It came from Takeda. And before that ... well, no one is really sure. Although Ellis might have some historical stuff in his next book. We'll just have to wait and see.

As I've been posting in other threads, Ueshiba's training methods are not what are taught today. And, no, I don't believe that we are learning the way the first generation learned. If we were, there would be more greats of Aikido out there.
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