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Old 09-08-2008, 03:48 PM   #76
mathewjgano
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Aikido simply needs to adopt internal power / aiki-it is *thee* single greatest advantage, and is all but lost or else exhbited in a diluted state in the art. If it adopts more live training on top of that via jujutsu It will become one of the most powerful arts of the world.
Until it does it will forever be victim of other arts superior technical training, or internal power / aiki approaches.
It's just the way it is. It's really not that complicated.
Everything is a judgement based on the level of understanding of those offering opinions.
It makes sense that folks with superior aiki training would be better at aiki than our hypothetical Aikidoka. However, I believe the techniques were probably intended to be the primary exercises through which internal power manifests, and I believe with a good teacher one can learn aiki by using waza as the vehicle of exercise. You and others may well have some great exercises which focus on some serious internal strengthening and alignment shaping/conditioning, but my sense is that practicing Aikido waza properly teaches aiki also, if not as well, and that with this level of aiki one can do pretty well. I'm hardly a measure, but as a smaller guy with bigger friends I've got something of a practical sense of how to over-power a guy who's stronger than me. That said I have to agree with Mark that studying Aikido teaches aiki. Obviously my level of understanding shapes my view, but I think the point is that I have an understanding that is of aiki, slight though it may be.
As for my own evolution, I plan on training again very soon and always looking for ways to improve my insights, be they getting a taste of other arts or styles or even just some supplemental exercises to reinforce what I've already begun to learn. Application is what it's all about, so the question every Aikidoka should ask themselves is what am I getting out of this and what is the evidence of that?"

Last edited by mathewjgano : 09-08-2008 at 03:54 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 09-08-2008, 04:33 PM   #77
Aikibu
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Hmmmmm....I sure do get confused...

Aikido evolved out of DR not the other way around...

So how can getting Aikido back to it's DR roots be considered evolution???

Ushiba's enlightenment came from the idea the Budo is Love...How does learning Aiki enhance this???

Personally I took my ability to destroy to the highest "levels of practice".... A little radio handset and a laser and you can destroy about anything (Bring the Mutha Fooking Rain!!!)... in the civilian world and with a few months of live fire practice... I'll bet I could still wield a pistol, shotgun, or rifle better than most...Not only that but with a little knowledge anyone can be a McGuyver of Mayhem with all the stuff available and sincere resolve or madness...heck look what a half a dozen box cutters did...

We're busy chasing dudes in rags with cell phones and AK's with the Aiki of our Aircraft Carriers and other High Technology! LOL

Think about it....

So what kind of man does this "practice" & knowledge make me? Where do I go from there?

Personally I am wary of tools that give me too much power without any corresponding growth in character or spirit...

Aikido does not corner the market on Budo in the least... but that was the founder's Idea...Budo is Love..."Practice Sincere Aikido and you will become a better human being." And I bought into that and still buy into it...

Some folks here use examples of Blackbelt Disease to say that somehow lack of competition makes folks into butt heads...True to a very small extent... but there are no Martial Practices that are exceptions to this rule. In fact I have found some of the kindest most generous human beings in the Martial Arts and allot of them in Aikido.

So how does Aikido evolve is the wrong question (to me anyway)

How do I evolve using Aikido( or any Martial) Practice is the real question. One that I can resolve almost everyday.....Usually (as was so well put!) with a smile and a hug.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 09-08-2008 at 04:39 PM.
 
Old 09-08-2008, 07:30 PM   #78
rob_liberti
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Well,

Aikido evolved from DR for sure.
But in the quest for peace a bit of the power was lost.
Call me crazy but I want both... You know like the founder had.

Rob
 
Old 09-09-2008, 07:28 AM   #79
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Hmmmmm....I sure do get confused...
Me too...

Quote:
Aikido evolved out of DR not the other way around...

So how can getting Aikido back to it's DR roots be considered evolution???
Again, I think the question centers around the physical skills used to power the Daito ryu waza, and Ueshiba's waza even after he left Daito ryu. With almost every evolutionary change, something is lost at the same time something is gained. If my aikido has lost THE basic operating system that Ueshiba used, then I may have evovled in one or another area, but I have DEVOLVED in perhaps the most important area.

Quote:
Ushiba's enlightenment came from the idea the Budo is Love...How does learning Aiki enhance this???
Without the ability to not be mercifull, there is no ability to be mercifull.

[snip] ...

Quote:
Think about it....
Why would you think we haven't thought about it? It is in fact the result of having thought about it that drives many who experience it to work on this kind of practice.

Quote:
So what kind of man does this "practice" & knowledge make me? Where do I go from there?
What kind of man do you want to be? Where do you want to go? The same choices and contradictions present themselves no matter which physical path you follow. The same pitfalls as well.

Quote:
Personally I am wary of tools that give me too much power without any corresponding growth in character or spirit...
As you well should be. So why exactly, would the training methods being discussed NOT foster "any corresponding growth in character or spirit"? Why would developing the physical skill under discussion NOT foster the same character or spirit, as say, doing 1000 tenkan? The mindset can be what ever you choose, practicing either method. The mindset is not exclusive to any particular physical practice.

Quote:
So how does Aikido evolve is the wrong question (to me anyway)

How do I evolve using Aikido( or any Martial) Practice is the real question. One that I can resolve almost everyday.....Usually (as was so well put!) with a smile and a hug.

William Hazen
What makes you think the question is any different for anyone else? It is through the evolution of the participants that the art itself will evolve. As we grow and change, it grows and changes. If we stagnate and die, the art stagnates and dies. The whole may be greater than the sum of the parts, but if the sum of the parts is remarkably low...

you get the idea...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 09-09-2008, 02:38 PM   #80
Marc Abrams
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

The continued evolution of Aikido should reflect the continued evolution of the human species.

Considering the nature and tone of many threads lately, I wish is to see the Aikidoka evolve as follows:

1) Selective mutism towards addressing "controversial threads and ideas." This should help us focus in on the "Ai" aspect of "Aikido" which seems to have become an "I" on the internet.

2) A return to Darwinian thinking: It either works or it doesn't work. The only way to find this out is to practice, practice and practice. Then open yourself up to testing what you believe that you know with anybody and everybody so that you can receive real world feedback on what works and does not work. Then repeat this process ad infinitum (or death do us part).

Opinions are like rear-ends. Everybody has one and everyone is entitled to value an opinion in any manner, shape or form. O'Sensei is no longer alive and will not be reborn. In absence of the direct response from the founder of Aikido, it will be up to each and every Aikidoka to make a decision as to what constitutes Aikido, what makes Aikido work.......................................... Once you come to your conclusions, own-up to the fact that other people will disagree with your conclusions. Simply be open to test what you believe you know and be open to head in a direction that YOUR Aikido should be headed in. Then divorce your ego from your conclusions so that as you practice more and more, your Aikido will change more and more and your conclusions will change as well. Then once again, accept the fact that others will simply disagree with you.

Just my 2 cents that have been devalued based upon the decline of the us dollar on the world market.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 09-09-2008, 03:17 PM   #81
Aikibu
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Me too...

Again, I think the question centers around the physical skills used to power the Daito ryu waza, and Ueshiba's waza even after he left Daito ryu. With almost every evolutionary change, something is lost at the same time something is gained. If my aikido has lost THE basic operating system that Ueshiba used, then I may have evovled in one or another area, but I have DEVOLVED in perhaps the most important area.
Perhaps... That is if you consider Aiki a basic operating system of Aikido or something Ueshiba learned quickly and simply from Takada. If that is so then why did such a "simple thing" as Aiki die with him when he transmitted his Aikido to hundreds of students? And how is it Aikido continues to flourish despite the lack of Aiki? Where are Ueshiba's specific instructions to learn Aiki as the sole basis to understand Aikido.

Personally I think most of this controversy is artificial at best.

Quote:
Without the ability to not be mercifull, there is no ability to be mercifull.
This circular argument does not fit with most major religious and or spiritual tenets that I am aware of except maybe Bushido and some crazed German Philosophers.

Like Roshi put it once Does a puppy dog have to learn how to kill before it can truly be a puppy?

And the Carpenter...(to paraphrase) To enter the kingdom of heaven one must have the spirit of a child.

The Philosophy of Aikido is to practice the art of being a puppy dog even if possible with your enemies. But more importantly with yourself. I already know how to hurt people.

Quote:
Why would you think we haven't thought about it? It is in fact the result of having thought about it that drives many who experience it to work on this kind of practice.
Perhaps I did not put this in the proper context. Let me try this...Superior Skill (or Technology) does not exactly "evolve" into a higher capacity for mercy in general. Takada was not known for mercy but Ueshiba was...

Quote:
What kind of man do you want to be? Where do you want to go? The same choices and contradictions present themselves no matter which physical path you follow. The same pitfalls as well.
Very True

Quote:
As you well should be. So why exactly, would the training methods being discussed NOT foster "any corresponding growth in character or spirit"? Why would developing the physical skill under discussion NOT foster the same character or spirit, as say, doing 1000 tenkan? The mindset can be what ever you choose, practicing either method. The mindset is not exclusive to any particular physical practice.
See above

Quote:
What makes you think the question is any different for anyone else? It is through the evolution of the participants that the art itself will evolve. As we grow and change, it grows and changes. If we stagnate and die, the art stagnates and dies. The whole may be greater than the sum of the parts, but if the sum of the parts is remarkably low...

you get the idea...
No argument there Which is why the premise that Aikido is lacking only holds water depending on your point of view. For some of us it's enough. I really hope to experience the kind of Aiki Dan is talking about but if I miss out Oh Well...My Aikido life will go on merrily down the road.

Quote:
Best,
Ron
Take Care Ron

William Hazen
 
Old 09-09-2008, 04:27 PM   #82
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Perhaps... That is if you consider Aiki a basic operating system of Aikido or something Ueshiba learned quickly and simply from Takada. If that is so then why did such a "simple thing" as Aiki die with him when he transmitted his Aikido to hundreds of students? And how is it Aikido continues to flourish despite the lack of Aiki? Where are Ueshiba's specific instructions to learn Aiki as the sole basis to understand Aikido.
I don't think he learned it quickly or easily. He spent a minimum of 5 intense years...after his first meeting with Takeda on the mat Ueshiba was on the floor weeping. That doesn't sound easy to me. Many things can flourish even if they are a shadow of what came before...people find amazing ways to delude themselves. Me too...

Ueshiba was not so well known for specifc instructions...which would go against the general idea of budo in anycase. Steal it if you can.

Quote:
Personally I think most of this controversy is artificial at best.
Of course it is! That is why when most people feel what these guys are talking about, there really isn''t any debate.

Quote:
This circular argument does not fit with most major religious and or spiritual tenets that I am aware of except maybe Bushido and some crazed German Philosophers.
Well, I don't think it is circular, and I don't care personally what it agrees with. To me, it's pretty simple. I cannot logically show mercy to someone that has any meaning unless I have the ability to not be merciful. That is when showing mercy becomes a viable choice, rather than something I am left with as an after thought. See the other thread just now about Ghandi.

Quote:
Like Roshi put it once Does a puppy dog have to learn how to kill before it can truly be a puppy?
Sorry, you lost me completely on this one. Now, if you said does a wolf have to learn how to kill to become a wolf...at least I'd understand what you are getting at. Puppies are puppies...and wolves are wolves.

Quote:
And the Carpenter...(to paraphrase) To enter the kingdom of heaven one must have the spirit of a child.
Sorry again, not qualified to speak on that.

Quote:
The Philosophy of Aikido is to practice the art of being a puppy dog even if possible with your enemies. But more importantly with yourself. I already know how to hurt people.
It is??? got a quote for that? In 15 years of aikido (or more) I've never heard that once. Not from any shihan.

Quote:
Perhaps I did not put this in the proper context. Let me try this...Superior Skill (or Technology) does not exactly "evolve" into a higher capacity for mercy in general. Takada was not known for mercy but Ueshiba was...
No, but the OPPORTUNITY for meaningfull mercy does come from having the power to be otherwise. Takeda may not have used that opportunity, while Ueshiba did use that opportunity. If we are to believe all the stories of both men. Some might take exception to that characterization of Takeda.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 09-09-2008, 05:03 PM   #83
Aikibu
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I don't think he learned it quickly or easily. He spent a minimum of 5 intense years...after his first meeting with Takeda on the mat Ueshiba was on the floor weeping. That doesn't sound easy to me. Many things can flourish even if they are a shadow of what came before...people find amazing ways to delude themselves. Me too...
Curious... If this was the case then why is it Aiki is being made to be both simple and easy to learn?

Quote:
Ueshiba was not so well known for specifc instructions...which would go against the general idea of budo in anycase. Steal it if you can.
I think he may have been hard for some folks to understand but obiviously some understood what he was talking about.

Quote:
Of course it is! That is why when most people feel what these guys are talking about, there really isn''t any debate.
Ok

Quote:
Well, I don't think it is circular, and I don't care personally what it agrees with. To me, it's pretty simple. I cannot logically show mercy to someone that has any meaning unless I have the ability to not be merciful. That is when showing mercy becomes a viable choice, rather than something I am left with as an after thought. See the other thread just now about Ghandi.
The Ghandi debate does not alter the premise behind Buddha Nature or The Christ Within one bit..The "nature" of all Budo is to get in touch with this spirit and embody it. Not to play around with the idea you're merciful just because you know how to hurt somebody and choose not to. LOL It goes far deeper than that. At least that is what O'Sensei seemed to be saying most of the time. LOL

Quote:
Sorry, you lost me completely on this one. Now, if you said does a wolf have to learn how to kill to become a wolf...at least I'd understand what you are getting at. Puppies are puppies...and wolves are wolves.
No worries keeping trudging the road of happy destiny and we'll get there.

Quote:
It is??? got a quote for that? In 15 years of aikido (or more) I've never heard that once. Not from any shihan.
No, but the OPPORTUNITY for meaningfull mercy does come from having the power to be otherwise. Takeda may not have used that opportunity, while Ueshiba did use that opportunity. If we are to believe all the stories of both men. Some might take exception to that characterization of Takeda.
Answered above.

Quote:
Best,
Ron
Take Care Ron,
William Hazen
 
Old 09-09-2008, 05:34 PM   #84
Keith Larman
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Good lord do I ever hate the way people use the word evolution.

Evolution is simply how things change over time. Things don't really "devolve", they just evolve. Whether the ways things have evolved are good or not is a completely separate issue. And of course, even more importantly, you have to realize that one person's negative direction may very well be a very positive direction for someone else.

There are folk who like the aiki-bunny fluffy stuff. There are some who like the tougher, harder stuff. And everything in between. And it ain't on a single line from one end to the other but a complex web of various directions and bifurcations.

Aikido evolves because everything does. People live, teach, die. Things change, morph and evolve.

Frankly I see some people who work very hard on structure and do all sorts of "ki tests". We do, it's central to our style from day one -- our late Sensei was a long time student of Tohei and received certification of completion of the innermost training in Ki from Tohei. Sensei founded Seidokan with the express intent of focusing on Ki, the application to modern life, and the study of O Sensei's writings. But is that Ueshiba's aiki? Or Takeda's aiki? Or Tohei's aiki? Or Kobayashi's Aiki? Now we have a new generation of Kobayashi's senior students teaching their version of that lineage.

It is what it is. Evolution is a thing without value judgements. It just is.

So the first step is *always* to decide what the heck it is you're trying to learn, what it is you want to be, and then find the people offering those things. For some maybe it is training in a philosophy. For others it is all about fluid movement, flow and blending. For some it is about the power of structure and learning to unify mind and body. For some it is about a lot of things. For others it is probably all about getting together with friends...

It just seems to me we're talking about a hugely diverse thing as if it is a single thing. It's like talking about the concept of IQ -- yeah, it is a singular measure but ultimately it is an artificial construct which when you look at each individual is as varied and unique as each person.

 
Old 09-09-2008, 07:10 PM   #85
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Hey William, good thoughts for sure. Makes me think about a few things.

I hear ya when you talk about the endstate of aikido and about peace and harmony.

A couple of other post made over the past couple of days made me think hard about this very topic.

Every now and then someone will say, well in a fight the best aikido is to simply smile, run, or sit down a meditate.

I find that conclusion interesting.

Personally I find it to be a very "evolved" point of view in the grand scheme of things. To have the courage to set ego aside and allow someone to hit you, or to be a lightening rod for anger and hatred is an amazing thing ala Ghandi style.

I think though that the issue is much more complex than that.

First of alll, if this is all that is necessarily, learning to smile, running, and meditate, then why bother with all the "martial stuff". why not work on refining those skills if that were all that mattered?

As you state, aikido is but one approach to build authentic peace and harmony. There are many ways to do it.

So, why would we spend time in aikido developing aiki.

Well I think it is very important to demonstrate and understand and to master aiki...true aiki that is...not the mental or pseudo-pyschological aiki...but true aiki.

Anyone can become mentally tough enough to face adversity dead on with courage. Stand under a cold water fall, take blows. We could do that pretty much in short order with no real expertise in martial training.

We can read many books and become "mental martial artist" and spout of great phrases and eloquent speeches about harmony, peace, and the way.

So why did O Sensei go this route? What is so important about the actual path of aiki that draws people to the power.

It would seem that it is almost a craving that is sought after obsessively by those of us that study this stuff.

We don't really know why we want it, what we will do with it when we get it, but damn do we have to capture and possess it!

Why? What is so special about it?

I think that true aiki is necessary for aikidoka to learn as it shows mastery of self and represents how much potential can be unlocked in the human body when we align mind, body, and spirit.

The essence of aiki to me means that we have achieved command and balance of these things. In a way, it alleviate personal suffering in the process.

You are correct though, I think many chase the physical aspects of aiki obsessively without the mental and spiritual care that is equally important.

vice, we have aikibunnies that fawn over the philosophy and spiritual aspects and "sort of" do a "cursory dance" in the physical aspects.

Anyway, I am tired and not sure if I expressed this very well....but I think that it is vital that we refine the aiki in aiki as best we can to understand aikido as a powerful way in which we can use to empower others to understand violence, their relationship to it, an use it as a method to "evolve" or transform.

 
Old 09-09-2008, 07:13 PM   #86
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

BTW, did not mean to imply that all Ghandi did was sit, take blows, and meditate. His "martial" process was a very complex and strategic one that resulted in the effective use of "non-violence".

His ma'ai is very interesting. He chose the right times, with the right tools, and the right place in order to have the desired second and third order affects.

It was not aiki, but definitly in many respects, his goals were aligned with those that O'Sensei would hope to achieve.

 
Old 09-09-2008, 07:37 PM   #87
Aikibu
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
BTW, did not mean to imply that all Ghandi did was sit, take blows, and meditate. His "martial" process was a very complex and strategic one that resulted in the effective use of "non-violence".

His ma'ai is very interesting. He chose the right times, with the right tools, and the right place in order to have the desired second and third order affects.

It was not aiki, but definitly in many respects, his goals were aligned with those that O'Sensei would hope to achieve.
Reminds me of my favorite Terry Dobson story...

Dobson (spelling?) had been training at Hombu for a while and in his mind he had really felt that he had begun to master what he was learning from O'Sensei. When he took the train home after a long day of practice there was an angry drunk in the car who began to get really obnoxious....Terry immediately prepared himself to take the drunk on and subdue him. Just as he was about to confront him (with visions of Irimnage in his head) with his fantastic hard won Martial Skills an old man sitting next to the drunk put his arm around him, and asked the drunk what was troubling him. The drunk broke down and began to cry and that...Terry observed... is real Aikido.

I know I am paraphrasing it a bit but I heard that story many years ago and it continues to inspire me.

William Hazen

PS Kevin...I see some Gandhi style Aikido in Obama...He actually went on the O'Reilly show and interviewed directly with Bill NHB!!! LOL

I seriously doubt we'll see McCain go on Keith Olberman's show.

Last edited by Aikibu : 09-09-2008 at 07:43 PM.
 
Old 09-09-2008, 08:30 PM   #88
mwible
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

I study Suenaka-Ha Testsugaku-Ho Aikido, under Roy Y Suenaka Sensei, who was an Uchi-Deshi to O' Sensei himself, and also, later, of Tohei Sensei. And i know for fact that atleast once a year if not several times a year, Suenaka sensei finds a more direct/ efficient way to do one or more of our many techniques in Aikido. There have beens everal changes in the little more than 2+ years that i have been studying.
Is that the kind of evolution that you speak of? Searching for and finding more efficient ways to do the techniques that we are so devoted to?

rei,
morgan
 
Old 09-09-2008, 09:02 PM   #89
rob_liberti
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

No, I think some of us are saying that maybe we can throw away the the typical techniques entirely. And then replace that training with the techniques of developing a trained body, establishing and maintaining positional dominance, and using aiki against other people who also have developed aiki.

Rob
 
Old 09-09-2008, 09:40 PM   #90
mathewjgano
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Keith wrote:
Things don't really "devolve", they just evolve. Whether the ways things have evolved are good or not is a completely separate issue.
I think "devolve," here, denotes bad evolution, but I completely agree with everything else you said, Keith. Those were some great guidelines for how Aikido will hopefully evolve over time, with mindfullness intent.
Quote:
Ron wrote:
Without the ability to not be mercifull, there is no ability to be mercifull.
Quote:
William wrote:
[it's]Not to play around with the idea you're merciful just because you know how to hurt somebody and choose not to.
I think what might be complicating this is the notion that learning aiki somehow necessitates also learning how to not be merciful. I think what Ron is saying is that in learning how a body may be harmed, we learn how to avoid that harm and in that sense have a greater capacity for expressing our mercy. If I'm right, i think I agree with you both because I also agree that learning how to hurt doesn't make one merciful. All that's required is simply knowing how to be kind...and of course that can take all kinds of shapes (altruism, etc.).

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 09-09-2008, 09:47 PM   #91
mathewjgano
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
No, I think some of us are saying that maybe we can throw away the the typical techniques entirely. And then replace that training with the techniques of developing a trained body, establishing and maintaining positional dominance, and using aiki against other people who also have developed aiki.

Rob
Do you think this has to do with O Sensei's description of forgetting every technique he had ever learned?

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 09-09-2008, 11:21 PM   #92
Aikibu
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Do you think this has to do with O Sensei's description of forgetting every technique he had ever learned?
I don't I think so...It has to do with the fact that O'Sensei really felt the true nature of Budo which is love...Hence (for example) Dobson's Satori when he saw the actions of the old man...

Some men have faith in the endless chanting of the Sutras and some find love in silence...

Shoji Nishio also put it...

Sincere Heart through Austere Practice.

Some may find me a bit of a Aikifunny Bunny and I am cool wid dat!!!

William Hazen
 
Old 09-10-2008, 01:01 AM   #93
Erick Mead
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
No, I think some of us are saying that maybe we can throw away the the typical techniques entirely. And then replace that training with the techniques of developing a trained body, establishing and maintaining positional dominance, and using aiki against other people who also have developed aiki.
Maybe. From experience, it may be a mistake to try to jump straight into aerobatics without a long time working precision and control into the plain, dull, boring, but highly important straight and level flying -- never mind controlled ascent, descent and holding and acquiring new headings. (Did I mention a few emergency procedures when things go really wrong? ) Waza fit in all these categories. Learning anything requires mastering non-intuitive elements in isolation before combining them into a seamless intuitive whole.

The approach suggested also sacrifices a developed body of knowledge with a rich vocabulary and conceptual depth for one that is not well developed conceptually. (Even if poorly understood by many, the depth is still there to be had in the traditional learning) We differ on the supposition that this body of knowledge, properly applied, does not result in the same essential thing --if one puts the time and critical attention into it.

My solution is is to relate one deep set of concepts (Ki-based concepts) to another deep one (mechanics and bio mechanics) -- which is native to us and more critically minded to begin with. Then training can develop on its own.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 09-10-2008, 07:21 AM   #94
Fred Little
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Re: "Dobson's Satori"

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Hence (for example) Dobson's Satori when he saw the actions of the old man...
Not only that, but after his Satori, as all who met him can testify, Terry farted rainbows and belched sunshine until the end of his days,so powerful was this transformative experience.

Dear friends, have you ever felt that you too would like to move in this world with the grace of a bear on skates, the gentleness of St. Francis of Assissi, and the panache of a Musketeer? Help is on the way.

This transformative experience can be yours, in return for your generous donation of $10,000 or more. You will be named a member of the Lower East Side Founders' Circle, an initiate of the Boho Manda, and will have rights to collect scrap lumber for your woodstove on every unsupervised job site in Lower Manhattan (chain saw not included). A handwritten kirigami menjo carefully prepared on authentic old-stock fish wrap from the original Fulton Street Fish Market will certify these attainments, titles and rights.

In addition, intercessory prayers to Kannon, the Goddess of Compassion, (in either beatific or wrathful manifestations -- please be sure to include clear instructions with your contribution) will be made on your behalf for the entire term of your enlightenment.

Don't delay, as this is a limited time offer and our supply of fish wrap for menjo is limited! Don't be caught with your hakama down! Act now! Act now! Act now! (Offer not valid in all jurisdictions, some restrictions may apply, consult your spiritual guide, tax attorney, and Turner Construction Company for more detailed advice.)
 
Old 09-10-2008, 08:41 AM   #95
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Re: "Dobson's Satori"

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
Not only that, but after his Satori, as all who met him can testify, Terry farted rainbows and belched sunshine until the end of his days,so powerful was this transformative experience.

Dear friends, have you ever felt that you too would like to move in this world with the grace of a bear on skates, the gentleness of St. Francis of Assissi, and the panache of a Musketeer? Help is on the way.

This transformative experience can be yours, in return for your generous donation of $10,000 or more. You will be named a member of the Lower East Side Founders' Circle, an initiate of the Boho Manda, and will have rights to collect scrap lumber for your woodstove on every unsupervised job site in Lower Manhattan (chain saw not included). A handwritten kirigami menjo carefully prepared on authentic old-stock fish wrap from the original Fulton Street Fish Market will certify these attainments, titles and rights.

In addition, intercessory prayers to Kannon, the Goddess of Compassion, (in either beatific or wrathful manifestations -- please be sure to include clear instructions with your contribution) will be made on your behalf for the entire term of your enlightenment.

Don't delay, as this is a limited time offer and our supply of fish wrap for menjo is limited! Don't be caught with your hakama down! Act now! Act now! Act now! (Offer not valid in all jurisdictions, some restrictions may apply, consult your spiritual guide, tax attorney, and Turner Construction Company for more detailed advice.)
How much did you have to pay to become a cynic Fred? LOL

William Hazen

Must be a New York Thing.
 
Old 09-10-2008, 09:15 AM   #96
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

For more amusing cynicism please refer to the Dobson essay, Knights of the Mouldy Rope which can be found in Ellis Amdur's book Dueling With O-Sensei. Please forward all royalties to my non-profit organization. LOL.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
 
Old 09-10-2008, 04:21 PM   #97
rob_liberti
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Maybe. From experience, it may be a mistake to try to jump straight into aerobatics without a long time working precision and control into the plain, dull, boring, but highly important straight and level flying -- never mind controlled ascent, descent and holding and acquiring new headings. (Did I mention a few emergency procedures when things go really wrong? ) Waza fit in all these categories. Learning anything requires mastering non-intuitive elements in isolation before combining them into a seamless intuitive whole.

The approach suggested also sacrifices a developed body of knowledge with a rich vocabulary and conceptual depth for one that is not well developed conceptually. (Even if poorly understood by many, the depth is still there to be had in the traditional learning) We differ on the supposition that this body of knowledge, properly applied, does not result in the same essential thing --if one puts the time and critical attention into it.

My solution is is to relate one deep set of concepts (Ki-based concepts) to another deep one (mechanics and bio mechanics) -- which is native to us and more critically minded to begin with. Then training can develop on its own.
I'm not jumping into anything. I'm taking my time. I'm also learning as fast as I can. And the results are so obvious.

I think the difference is that I *know* my current approach will take me where I want to be. Until any other approach starts producing, I'm not buying...

Rob
 
Old 09-10-2008, 05:32 PM   #98
mathewjgano
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Some may find me a bit of a Aikifunny Bunny and I am cool wid dat!!!

William Hazen
I can dig it.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 09-17-2008, 03:58 PM   #99
Michael Hopkins
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
I would argue that they didn't bring aikido to new heights with those things. Those things brought them to aikido, and they were allowed to train with O-Sensei because of their dedication as students. Those arts were part of their influences and offered another avenue to elaborate on a dimension of aiki. Aikido is 'bigger' in an essence, because it brought those skills to new heights.
This may just be nitpicking, but I think a slight correction of fact is in order to move along this argument. You say that Sugawara was a student of TSKSR and other martial arts, and that is what allowed him to train. This is simply not true. It was after his uchi deshi residence with O-Sensei that he began to study those arts. In fact he was directed by O-Sensei to study them.
 
Old 09-17-2008, 04:59 PM   #100
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I think the difference is that I *know* my current approach will take me where I want to be.
Rob
Hi Rob,
The problem with these discussions is summed up here. The training you have chosen will take you to where you want to be. Since I know your Aikido background and also have a decent idea of the outside training you are doing, I can predict how your Aikido might go in the future. I am sure that it will be great. Your efforts will only make Aikido better.

On the other hand, I know people doing virtually the same type of training who will go in a completely different direction. These people want something different from their training and I predict that after a few years pursuing their current direction, they will simply have ceased to be doing Aikido at all. It's a matter of what they want from their training. These folks are all about fighting... it's their personality and their interest. Using their training, even though it may be identical to your own, to pursue the goal of being more powerful or more skillful than others in fighting will not make them good Aikido people. In fact, the folks I know who have chosen that direction have all ended up moving away from Aikido because it doesn't fit.

Anyway, motivations matter in this because the outcome will vary according to the individual natures of the folks involved. Doing great training for the wrong (from an Aikido standpoint) reasons will not produce a great Aikido practitioner. Of course, crappy training with the best of intentions is just wishful thinking...

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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