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Old 12-26-2008, 08:11 PM   #651
Erick Mead
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
How do you know the arts you mentioned aren't considered a sport in other parts of the world? I presume they are because of the human nature to compete. Anything that requires skill will eventually be a competition and hence, a sport. Btw, what makes a competition a sport?
It is also in human nature to cooperate, and in fact, mass forms of the quite deadly "competition" called War, requires, first and foremost, to hone the cooperative aspects of our nature better than those of the "enemy."

It is perhaps war's one redeeming quality -- that it calls forth the best in us -- to do our worst.

"Martial arts" being part of the warlike endeavor -- it should not surprise us that perhaps the measure of our cooperation, not our competition, is the measure of our power. Some consideration might be given to the possibility that the superior form of warfare is not in competition with the enemy but in merely cooperating with him, in his will to destruction -- if need be, -- or to end conflict without destruction -- if possible. "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 12-26-2008, 08:20 PM   #652
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Try looking at swine. Domestic hogs go feral very quickly if left to survive on their own morphing back to (all characteristics) being wild boar.
Yes, then if they 'morphed'( revert- morph implies a physical change) back to domestication, that'd be a good example of a perfect evolution. Hmmm, AIkido perfectly evolved.......

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-26-2008, 08:30 PM   #653
Buck
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Now how about the chicken situation?
 
Old 12-26-2008, 08:39 PM   #654
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Don't ask a pheasant, snake, or platypus.
 
Old 12-26-2008, 08:45 PM   #655
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
It is also in human nature to cooperate....."To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."
The there's millions of unskilled folks imposing their will on one another.The Marines have a saying: " Peace thru superior firepower" Too bad most of the time they have to use it to get it.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-26-2008, 08:48 PM   #656
Sy Labthavikul
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one Gene. I would say that all sports involve competition but not all competitions are sports. I do not consider Aikido a sport.
I agree here. The way I've always been taught is that a key definition of a sport is that there must be a winner and there must be a loser. Whats more, in order for the winner to win, he must actively work to make the other participants lose.

From my understanding, a part of O'Sensei's enlightenment came when he was able to reconcile the seemingly contradictory notions of remaining martial and yet not having to actively work on making his opponents "lose," i.e., he didn't have to kill.


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Old 12-26-2008, 09:15 PM   #657
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Without the slightest opening
Nor the least thought of the enemy
And his encircling swords,
Step in and cut!

- Morihei Ueshiba

Does anyone see anything wrong with that saying?

Btw, Dr House( TV show "House") just said "that without competition, we'd still be single cell organisms".

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-26-2008, 09:22 PM   #658
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
From my understanding, a part of O'Sensei's enlightenment came when he was able to reconcile the seemingly contradictory notions of remaining martial and yet not having to actively work on making his opponents "lose," i.e., he didn't have to kill.
Yet he competed all his life.What a contradiction... a hyp..well, you know. Btw collecting more points than your opponent is a far cry from killing. Besides, I'll predict that in Aikido, it won't be one actively working to make his opponent lose, it'll be one defeating themself more than the other defeating themself.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-26-2008, 09:50 PM   #659
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
The there's millions of unskilled folks imposing their will on one another.The Marines have a saying: " Peace thru superior firepower" Too bad most of the time they have to use it to get it.
The Marines. Where would we be without them?

Quote:
Scott Ritter wrote:
[War] isn't a Nintendo game… There's no hitting reset and coming back to life. ... I have to tell you, as a former Marine, I was involved with the worlds most efficient killing machine. We were the best led, best trained, best equipped warriors anybody's ever seen, and we are today. When we go to war we will slaughter those who oppose us, because that's what we do, and we do it better than anyone else. If you get in my way, I will kill you. You try hurt one of my marines, I'm taking you down. And I will continue to go until my government tells me to stop. We are the dogs of war and when we are unleashed there is nothing but hell. That's the reality of war. For God's sake, don't unleash the dogs of war unless there's an absolute necessity to do so.
OUR military, including Marines are ALL volunteers. Like I said, cooperation first and cooperation foremost. Killing after. NO ONE competes with Marines. Marines don't compete -- they just kill people and break things -- highly cooperatively.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 12-26-2008, 11:01 PM   #660
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Don't ask a pheasant, snake, or platypus.

 
Old 12-26-2008, 11:19 PM   #661
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Without the slightest opening
Nor the least thought of the enemy
And his encircling swords,
Step in and cut!

- Morihei Ueshiba

Does anyone see anything wrong with that saying?
Presume first, just for a minute, that this poem has O-Sensei telling us something about aikido. Next, see that you do not understand it.

Two natural ways to bridge the misunderstanding are these:

(1) O-Sensei makes no sense in his poetry, so why should I expect his aikido is any better. I can fix aikido to make it make sense to me...

(2) I don't understand what he's talking about. Is there a chance I don't understand what his aikido is for either? I wonder if it's worth investigating...

I wouldn't say that either way is the right way or the wrong way for anyone; but, I do think the point is relevant to the entire evolution discussion.

 
Old 12-26-2008, 11:56 PM   #662
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Without the slightest opening
Nor the least thought of the enemy
And his encircling swords,
Step in and cut!

- Morihei Ueshiba

Does anyone see anything wrong with that saying?

Btw, Dr House( TV show "House") just said "that without competition, we'd still be single cell organisms".
It's poetic budo code (I got it from Gozo Shido's books- think it is the advance techniques for Aikido). He is using sword work as a metaphor for not hesitating- to act quickly, e.g. kendo's "right mind." kind of thingy.

Do we live in a constant state of competition? Is competition something we have no choice, but to engage in, or like is it something we choose to do i.e., if something is plentiful that meets the demands of the increasing population, like food, do we need to compete for it?

If you buy into the evolution thingy, doesn't evolution happen naturally, automatically, we have no say in it. There is no choice, but for it to happen. Aikido naturally on its own evolves at its own rate and time; that applies to all Aikido/variations. What would evolve wouldn't be the practitioner, but the things that are really composing Aikido, the things that make it alive! i.e. budo, physics, philosophy, etc. Hey, we just do it. We don't make it, or evolve it. We are after the fact.We handle it.

FWIW, "House," it is a TV show. It is written by writers, not scientists, or athletes, it goes along the same lines as the actor Hugh Laurie who plays the fictional character Gregory House MD, isn't really a doctor.

And my fav line in "House" of all time is, "everyone lies."

Defining Stuff

Def: COMPETITION

To compete for something; engage in a contest; measure oneself against others.

Def: COMPETITION- other def.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition

Def: SPORT

An active diversion requiring physical exertion and competition
The occupation of athletes who compete for pay
A temporary summer resident of Maine (Maine colloquial )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_(biology)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_(botany)

Last edited by Buck : 12-27-2008 at 12:07 AM.
 
Old 12-27-2008, 12:11 AM   #663
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
My idea of evolved is not changed: adapting to improve to survive.
My point about the Pigeon is that it has evolved to be domesticated more than the Dove.
I didn't think you idea had changed. I was trying to change my own view to be in accordance with your own, but alas cannot. I got your point about the pigeon and simply offered the idea that the dove, apparently, evolved differently to suit a different context. I guess that was a dead horse, sorry.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 12-27-2008, 12:29 AM   #664
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
The there's millions of unskilled folks imposing their will on one another.The Marines have a saying: " Peace thru superior firepower" Too bad most of the time they have to use it to get it.
Some would disagree that superior firepower creates peace. I would argue strongly that this phrase is overly simplistic and usually wrong from a historic standpoint. If anything, superior firepower coupled with force tends to inspire competition and subversion: Afghanistan vs. Russia; Vietnam vs USA; present-day Iraq; etc. are all modern examples of how superior firepower has little to do with creating peace. In each of these cases we can see a clear superiority in firepower and clear protraction of conflict. It wasn't until the superior power walked away in 2/3 of my examples that relative peace ensued.
I can be invincible and not find peace. No, peace comes through something altogether different than having an easier way of inflicting damage than a foe. Peace comes about when people stop using their firepower; sometimes that's when they're all but wiped out...would you describe the cold war as peaceful? I wouldn't, so I also wouldn't conclude that mutually assured destruction creates peace either. Sometimes you have to give in to get peace; sometimes you have to make the other guy give in, but holding a person in check is hardly peaceful when that person still wants to harm you. It's the willingness to fight, or rather, the lack of it, which creates peace; firepower has little to do with it.
My opinion at the least.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 12-27-2008 at 12:40 AM.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 12-27-2008, 12:47 AM   #665
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

...and, Gene, while House may be a great show, w/ re: competition: wouldn't it be better to use a source other than a fictional character? I believe most would argue competition is but one componant of possible evolutionary processes, be it single-celled or otherwise. Competition only occurs when resources are relatively thin: adaptability for survival can be shaped by this, but doesn't have to be (thus other models are just as relevant, if not potentially more so).
(I'll [probably] try to find some sources to back my claim, but for now it's a bit late). Night all.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 12-27-2008 at 12:59 AM.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 12-27-2008, 06:05 AM   #666
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
I agree here. The way I've always been taught is that a key definition of a sport is that there must be a winner and there must be a loser. Whats more, in order for the winner to win, he must actively work to make the other participants lose.
So, track and field isn't a sport? Ski racing? Swimming?

I'm not so much picking at your definition of "sport" as pointing out the futility of trying to nail down some universally accepted definition that has no exceptions. That being the case, for the term "sport" and for so many other terms as well, discussion is useless unless the participants have a certain...how to put it...good will? Good faith? Resolution to address the subject under discussion rather than run it off the rails into terminology quibbling?
 
Old 12-27-2008, 08:30 AM   #667
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
The there's millions of unskilled folks imposing their will on one another.
Isn't that called the government?
 
Old 12-27-2008, 08:46 AM   #668
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

SO maybe budo practice should be seen as (deadly-serious) play.

On Christmas night, I was watching my son play chess with a friend, while his Mom was putting together a jigsaw puzzle with another friend.

Both sets of people were hunched forward, brows furrowed in concentration. One game was defined by competition; the other by cooperation. But essentially both were puzzles, simply puzzles of a different sort.

Haki Sack is a sport too, of sorts. Is so...
 
Old 12-27-2008, 08:48 AM   #669
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Some would disagree that superior firepower creates peace. I would argue strongly that this phrase is overly simplistic and usually wrong from a historic standpoint. If anything, superior firepower coupled with force tends to inspire competition and subversion: ...
I can be invincible and not find peace. No, peace comes through something altogether different than having an easier way of inflicting damage than a foe. Peace comes about when people stop using their firepower; sometimes that's when they're all but wiped out...would you describe the cold war as peaceful?
The old wisdom says "Si vis pacem, para bellum." NOT "Si vis pacem, fecit bellum." [For the Latin-challenged: "If you wish peace, prepare for war." vice -- "If you wish peace, make war."

I guess the first question about where the art "evolves" is whether the conditional statement ("if you wish... ") has been satisfied by the person asking the question: Does one truly desire peace? The implied alternative is that one still wishes to beat someone else. Which is -- in my book -- the underlying issue in competition.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 12-27-2008 at 08:51 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 12-27-2008, 08:54 AM   #670
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

The links I provided for sport (bio and bot) don't work via the link, if you add a ")" in the URL it will work. But to save you all the trouble, here is what Wikipedia says.

Sport defined biologically:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Sport (biology))
Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses, see Mutant (disambiguation).

The blue lobster is an example of a mutant.A mutant is an individual, organism, or new genetic character arising or resulting from an instance of mutation, which is a base-pair sequence change within the DNA of a gene or chromosome of an organism resulting in the creation of a new character or trait not found in the wild type. The natural occurrence of genetic mutations is integral to the process of evolution.

Etymology
Although not all mutations have a noticeable phenotypic effect, the common usage of the word mutant is generally a pejorative term only used for noticeable mutations.[1] The scientific usage is broader, referring to any organism differing from the wildtype.

Mutants should not be confused with organisms born of developmental abnormalities, which are caused by errors during morphogenesis. In a developmental abnormality, the DNA of the organism is unchanged and the abnormality cannot be passed on to progeny. Conjoined twins are the result of developmental abnormalities.

Chemicals that cause developmental abnormalities are called teratogens; these may also cause mutations, but their effect on development is not related to mutations. Chemicals that induce mutations are called mutagens. Most mutagens are also considered to be carcinogens.

Sport defined botanically:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
In botany, a sport is a part of a plant (normally a woody plant, but sometimes in herbs as well) that shows morphological differences from the rest of the plant. Sports may differ by foliage shape or color, flowers, or branch structure.

Sports with desirable characteristics are often propagated vegetatively to form new cultivars. Such selections are often prone to "reversion", meaning that part or all of the plant reverts to its original form.
 
Old 12-27-2008, 09:37 AM   #671
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
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SO maybe budo practice should be seen as (deadly-serious) play.
Mary's post on defining a sport, I agree with too. Party on!

Dave, you got my vote. Party on!

I will go on to say what I think what is pivotal to the discussion is that budo is its own category neither sport or art; truly. But instead, perhaps,"deadly-serious play." And I think we use these terms sport (and art) to I.D. something that doesn't fit in our category of sport (and art). And to proved those who are unfamiliar with budo a term of familiarity when we describe it. People unfamiliar with budo always ask, "what do you call it?" The word budo is so unfamiliar, providing no similar context. I think that is possibly (for better or worse) the drive for Nitobe to write his book "Bushido" to explain it intellectually to people unfamiliar with budo.

Terminology, is the concern, if it is a concern, that Aikido evolving means becoming a sport -applied to evolution then maybe a new definition is needed- in terms of evolution and athletics, a specialized definition. Then who is qualified in terms of evolution, cause I don't know of any scientist or study looking at Aikido in evolutionary terms.

Terminology in terms of athletics, Aikido as a sport like tennis, places Aikido (if it follows the things for it to be considered a contemporary sport ..matches, prizes, judges, etc. ) then it falls under the universal term of sport. Which changes it, not because of evolution, but because of a desire to be considered as such. If I want to change my sex and get it done to be a women, that isn't evolution. That's a sex change. And so goes it with Aikido styles shifting to being and being defined as a western sport.

I am not thinking about changing my sex, btw. No nip and tuck for me.
 
Old 12-27-2008, 09:51 AM   #672
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Scott Ritter wrote:
[War] isn't a Nintendo game… There's no hitting reset and coming back to life. ... I have to tell you, as a former Marine, I was involved with the worlds most efficient killing machine. We were the best led, best trained, best equipped warriors anybody's ever seen, and we are today. When we go to war we will slaughter those who oppose us, because that's what we do, and we do it better than anyone else. If you get in my way, I will kill you. You try hurt one of my marines, I'm taking you down. And I will continue to go until my government tells me to stop.

Well I would disagree with that one........ chuckle....

As I remember one American Navy Seaman braggart saying in a bar in Singapore one night..... "How's the smallest Navy in the world?" to which our Petty Officer (Royal Navy) replied "How's the second best?"...........
 
Old 12-27-2008, 09:58 AM   #673
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I always thought that some sports, btw, may have evolved from war stuff, i.e. core gymnastics sports, football, fotbal, etc. while others have not, i.e. bowling, golf, basketball, etc. Those sports didn't evolve out of war, but rather bordom. Point being not everything that comes from war becomes a game. Many, Many posts back Dave and I discussed this but not so basically in terms of speciation.

GeneC, as a steadfast dude for Aikido's evolution, how does genetic drift and flow relate to Aikido's evolution precisely following the idea of progeny. For da' sake of discussion, we will consider O'Sensei's major uchideshi as progeny. What are your thoughts?

Oh, I wanted to say that in my previous posts what I was getting to in a round about way (its more fun then being direct- intellectual foreplay) is that cooperation is beneficial,competition isn't the only way to survive. Not all things compete to survive. I love cockroaches, bees, ants, etc creatures that cooperate within their communities. And those creatures that are prey, and not predators that flourish in large populations in the face of competition.

Last edited by Buck : 12-27-2008 at 10:09 AM.
 
Old 12-27-2008, 10:17 AM   #674
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
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Marines don't compete -- they just kill people and break things -- highly cooperatively.
You're kidding right? Marines are one of the most competitive groups on earth. Sure they might cooperate with each other( that's just military protocol), but compete with everybody else in the world.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-27-2008, 10:20 AM   #675
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Presume first, just for a minute, that this poem has O-Sensei telling us something about aikido. Next, see that you do not understand it....
Joe, must you use every post as an excuse to personally attack me?

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 

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