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Old 12-23-2008, 12:53 PM   #551
C. David Henderson
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Good threads never die! I believe it, so it is true.

Best,
Ron
Do they just fade away?

I for one have a closed mind; I am unwilling to consider the hypothesis that the earth is flat. My bad.
 
Old 12-23-2008, 12:56 PM   #552
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I for one have a closed mind; I am unwilling to consider the hypothesis that the earth is flat. My bad.
Also, you use too many sentences.



R
 
Old 12-23-2008, 12:58 PM   #553
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Also, you use too many sentences.



R
Yup. Thanks for noticing.
 
Old 12-23-2008, 01:00 PM   #554
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Tao of Jeet Kune Do; Tao Te Ching; Go Rin No Sho, et al

Aikido has forms and doctrine( meaning it has to be done a certain way), which goes against the Budo( the way of war,or fighting) of having no form or doctine. Any MA with a subscribed form is limited and goes agianst Budo. Right here in this forum, folks have said that their strategy( if in a fight) is to perform an Ikkyo and if that doesn't work, they'll do a Shihonage and if that doesn't work, a Sankyo, etc. Is that right?
Go Rin No Sho? Oh you mean the "Book of Five Rings". I like it when people say what they really mean instead of using fancy words!

As Musashi was from the mid 1600's he actually predates most forms of budo, which is a modern adaptation of the old ways or koryu.

The Tao Te Ching is a chinese text/philosophy so not really sure how that has any bearing upon budo either.

I could spend a while going deep into the Book of Five Rings outlining where I felt the philosophy of aikido (mine at least) and my school's is aligned with the underlying advice of Musashi. The biggest one I take away from is that a warrior must be well rounded and be able to practice the arts of peace as well as the arts of war.

Budo is a modern adaptation of the old, IMO. It is concerned primarily with the perfection of self and dealing with the ego. Less concerned with external forces which by the time Budo came around in the late 1800's early 1900's, there was not much left in Japan for the old schools to fight. That is another story though.

What is the form and doctrine of Aikido?

AND more specifically WHAT aspects of budo does it violate?

Sorry, but I think you will need to be a little more specific other than throwing out a Chinese text and a 17th Century text as sources of reference if we want to continue to move the conversation forward.

 
Old 12-23-2008, 01:06 PM   #555
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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By the way, the writings I mentioned earlier may be found in the columns sectionAnd I highly recommend starting with the first of 10 articles:As I said, not easy reading, but anything worth while... Best,Ron
Ok, let's read:
Quote:
Peter Goldsbury wrote:
Inheritance

(d) On the other hand, all the evidence indicates that Morihei Ueshiba worried very much about passing on the art to future generations and finally designated his son Kisshomaru Ueshiba as heir and inheritor of the art.

(e) Kisshomaru Ueshiba seems to have changed the inheritance he received quite radically, again, with no clear reaction from his father, such that it has been stated that the aikido taught by him and by his successors nowadays is no longer Morihei Ueshiba's aikido.
Ok, this is telling me that Osensei DID want to expand Aikido, just what I've been saying.

Quote:
Peter Goldsbury wrote:
Emulation

(f) Just as the heirs of Morihei Ueshiba have passed on their knowledge and skill to their deshi,...., in proportion as they become more distant from the source.

(g) The fact that many of these deshi live outside Japan and that aikido has become a Japanese art practiced more outside Japan than in Japan has profoundly affected and is profoundly affecting its essential character.
Again saying that Aikido is changing and that it was meant to change, what I've been saying.

Quote:
Peter Goldsbury wrote:
However, I also believe that certain crucial assumptions are made, even in the way that the categories are set up. These assumptions, which are also very much controversial issues, are based on a particular paradigm (for want of a better term). This paradigm can also be expressed in a number of propositions:
"Pardigm(for want of abetter word)" sound familiar( I suggested this word was misused early on).

Quote:
Peter Goldsbury wrote:
Nevertheless, it is an undisputed fact that aikido spread rapidly overseas with the Founder's blessing (as a Á¨olden Bridge', in the Founder's wordsÍÖttered in Hawaii) and it can also be argued that the art has a stronger base, in terms of knowledge and numbers, outside Japan than in this country.
Still in line with what I'm saying.

I don't know what it is I'm supposed to read that will show me the error of my ways, but I'm seeing Mr Goldsbury saying the same thing I am (maybe I did read those articles ).

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-23-2008, 01:22 PM   #556
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
What is the form and doctrine of Aikido?

AND more specifically WHAT aspects of budo does it violate?

.
Hi Kevin,

I appreciate your original point, but to me this is an interesting question on its own merits. If I recall correctly, Ueshiba O'Sensei credited Sokaku Takeda with showing him the key to Budo, but distinguished this from the creation of Aikido.

So, if we change the operative word in your rhetorical question from "violate," to "differ," maybe that could more this conversation forward, at least if we focus on what Ueshiba intended by his comment.

I suspect it wasn't simply a political statement.

Regards,

David
 
Old 12-23-2008, 01:41 PM   #557
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Kisshomaru Ueshiba seems to have changed the inheritance he received quite radically, again, with no clear reaction from his father, such that it has been stated that the aikido taught by him and by his successors nowadays is no longer Morihei Ueshiba's aikido.
This section is particularly telling. The difference between MU's aikido and KU's aikido. "no clear reaction" is neither explicit approval, nor explicit disapproval...it is simply "no clear reaction". And I would posit "this is not my aikido!" is about as explicit as you can get.

Oh, and let's not forget that "passing on to future generations" and "expanding" can be two very different things.

You can choose to look at the similarities or the differences...but either way they are in fact different. Which is what I was stressing in post 543. If you continue reading Peter's articles, you'll see more of the dichotomy of wanting to pass aikido on, and what that aikido was in fact becoming, **as a result of passing it on in that fashion**.

Keep reading, I'm sure you'll find it interesting. But remember to open you mind as you do so

Best,
Ron (gotta go pick up the honey from the airport. If I leave her standing in the cold in this weather, I'm going to REALLY need my aikido... )

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 12-23-2008 at 01:54 PM.

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 12-23-2008, 01:58 PM   #558
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Oh, I wish I could cancel instead of post, but this line is just too too telling:

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Btw, I know of no concept so complex that I can't deduce to a single sentence or paragraph.
Forgive me this one transgression, Jun

 
Old 12-23-2008, 02:18 PM   #559
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
So, Aikdio is perfect in every way? There's absolutely no room for improvement?
Yes, Aikido is perfect in every way (whatever that means when referring to a body of knowledge).

We students of Aikido have all the room in the world for improvement. Perfection is an idealized end state; once achieved there's nowhere to go but down. That's why I always make sure I flub a dub at least once in each class.

Ron (happy holidays to everyone [apologies to Bill O'Reilly ])
 
Old 12-23-2008, 02:44 PM   #560
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Hi Kevin,

I appreciate your original point, but to me this is an interesting question on its own merits. If I recall correctly, Ueshiba O'Sensei credited Sokaku Takeda with showing him the key to Budo, but distinguished this from the creation of Aikido.

So, if we change the operative word in your rhetorical question from "violate," to "differ," maybe that could more this conversation forward, at least if we focus on what Ueshiba intended by his comment.

I suspect it wasn't simply a political statement.

Regards,

David
No problem with that....probably a bad choice of words on my part.

 
Old 12-23-2008, 03:14 PM   #561
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Go Rin No Sho? Oh you mean the "Book of Five Rings". I like it when people say what they really mean instead of using fancy words!
No, I mean "GO Rin No SHo" 'cause that's what the title of the book is. If it was "ZIppity Do DA Day", that's what I'd say.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Sorry, but I think you will need to be a little more specific other than throwing out a Chinese text and a 17th Century text as sources of reference if we want to continue to move the conversation forward.
Sorry, but you're mistaken, but I don't need to do any such thing and I can still move the thread forward. AFA I'm concerned, you're the one attempting to prevent that.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-23-2008, 03:30 PM   #562
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

What by asking you very specific questions related to your argument that you refuse to support in any intelligent and constructive manner?

Guys you are on your own on this thread...it is not moving forward at all with Gene.

Unless I see something devleop that is attempting to actually work through the subject, I am done discussing here!

Have fun!

 
Old 12-23-2008, 03:34 PM   #563
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Yes, Aikido is perfect in every way (whatever that means when referring to a body of knowledge). Ron (happy holidays to everyone [apologies to Bill O'Reilly ])
Funny you should say Aikido is perfect, yet be confused about it.

Anyway, I happen to disagree. I think there's plenty of room for improvement and counting myself is only a very small part of it. Consider that fact that there's so many different stlyes makes it imperfect. Then the fact that Aikido is actually being taught wrong makes it imperfect (if it was so perfect, it'd be incapable of being taught wrong). The fact that it's not the most popular MA makes it imperfect and last but not least, that fact that it's not the MA in MMA/UFC, makes it imperfect.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-23-2008, 04:02 PM   #564
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Consider that fact that there's so many different stlyes makes it imperfect. Then the fact that Aikido is actually being taught wrong makes it imperfect (if it was so perfect, it'd be incapable of being taught wrong). The fact that it's not the most popular MA makes it imperfect and last but not least, that fact that it's not the MA in MMA/UFC, makes it imperfect.
Your view of perfection itself must then be imperfect because we do not all share it. Your teaching is imperfect because you cannot make us understand. Your art is spiritually imperfect because its essence cannot even transcend the physical to win---let alone avoid---a verbal argument in this civil forum. Your art cannot be popular if you cannot even subject it to Bullshido's simple scrutiny without fear.

So, is there room for you to be improved?

 
Old 12-23-2008, 05:09 PM   #565
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Gene, I threw down the gauntlet and you didn't picked it.

The USMC will be very proud of you.
 
Old 12-23-2008, 07:13 PM   #566
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
Your view of perfection itself must then be imperfect because we do not all share it. Your teaching is imperfect because you cannot make us understand. Your art is spiritually imperfect because its essence cannot even transcend the physical to win---let alone avoid---a verbal argument in this civil forum. Your art cannot be popular if you cannot even subject it to Bullshido's simple scrutiny without fear.
I'm almost embarrassed for you. That logic is so warped, I won't even respond (Doh!! I just did! Darn it!!)

That quote from Benjamin Franklin comes to mind: "'tis better to remain silent and thought......"

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-23-2008, 07:14 PM   #567
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Gene, I threw down the gauntlet and you didn't picked it.

The USMC will be very proud of you.
It's out of honor that I don't go to battle of wits with an unarmed man

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-23-2008, 07:17 PM   #568
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

<yawn>....

I am not an expert
 
Old 12-23-2008, 07:26 PM   #569
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Come on folks, instead of just attacking me, if some of you disagree with me, tell me why, tell me how Aikido has absolutely no room to improve, in any way, shape or form.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-23-2008, 07:56 PM   #570
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Hi folks,

I can see that the general tone and direction of this thread is beginning to degenerate.

Can we please stick to discussing the topic and stay away from personal attacks? Also, can we please try to engage in a meaningful, constructive, and positive discussion with depth and substance by participating in a straightforward manner which addresses the questions and thoughts posed by others?

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 12-23-2008, 09:26 PM   #571
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Happy Holidays , Folks.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-23-2008, 09:28 PM   #572
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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No problem with that....probably a bad choice of words on my part.
I'm sorry, my friend, I disagree.

Your choice of words made perfect sense in their original context -- they simply triggered a stray thought for me.

And I'm guilty of a poor choice of words too -- I meant, "how is Aikido distinct as budo," not "different from budo."

I also think there will be no consensus on that question. I could be wrong, and there may be historical evidence that reasonable people could agree points towards one answer rather than another.

I suspect though, irrespective of the conflicts that have arisen in this thread, that this statement by Ueshiba is ambiguous enough that reasonable people could disagree.

Respectfully, as always.

DH
 
Old 12-23-2008, 09:33 PM   #573
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I suspect though, irrespective of the conflicts that have arisen in this thread, that this statement by Ueshiba is ambiguous enough that reasonable people could disagree.
Ugh---it's been so long and I am getting old What was the quote under consideration?

 
Old 12-23-2008, 10:03 PM   #574
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

I think Budo can be a wide open field subject to great interpretation. I I think at it's core, to me at least, budo is about "Stopping Harm or Stopping Conflict" (Bu). the DO part is about the Way, which is understanding or enlightenment. So, the practice of Budo is generically about gaining an understanding of stopping harm or conflict.

You can interpret that externally, internally or both.

Therefore, I think Budo can encompass just about any martial practice that is aligned with that core premise of "Stopping Harm".

It has nothing to do with competition, and everything to do with it. It can encompass it or not.

It can be aikido, judo, BJJ, Tai Chi, JKD, or whatever you want to practice as long as you practice leads you down the path of ultimately understanding how to stop harm or conflict, or at least reaching an understanding of the causes of conflict.

Aikido as an art, as you know has a full spectrum of that practice. Many find value in it simply as a healing process to heal old emotional traumas and it can be somewhat therapeutic to them. (Not that I believe that AIkido SHOULD be a primary way of treatment, or a substitute for competent counseling or advice but for many it has served to heal.)

Training Across Borders has used aikido as a way to help people understand one another and to bridge polictical boundaries in many countries. Irrelevant of how martially effective it was, it works simply for what it is...whatever it may be.

For many, and myself included, I think there is something special we are trying to study that makes aikido distinct and makes it aikido...that is, the study of "Ai Ki".

While alot of things and arts can be considered Budo, what makes aikido a separate, definable, and distinct practice or methodolgy should be the fact that we have isolated out a set kata, exercises, and movements that specifically are designed to train "Ai Ki".

Ai Ki is present in Judo, BJJ, lifting boxes and everything else. However none of those things are primarily concerned with the concentrated study of Ai Ki.

The founder and his Uschideshi felt it important enough to carry forward and felt that this unique and distinct subset of martial methodology would best lead to a profound understanding of self at a very high level.

Is that the case? Maybe maybe not. I am still trying to figure that out after 15 years of study.

However, I can tell you that my study of aiki has benefited me martially in many ways, and my study of other arts such as Judo and BJJ have helped me better understand Ai Ki.

The best studies I have had in recent years have been with guys like Mike Sigman, Akuzawa (Ark), and Toby Threadgill. Guys that have a pretty good grasp on Aiki, ironically none of them consider themselves Aikidoka!

It should not be taken though that Aikido needs to EVOLVE because I have learned from these non-aikidoka, only that aikido can be essentially "Open Source" within its core foundation. Much valuable can be learned by looking at others and looking at our own framework critically from time to time.

At it's core though, aikido is a principally centered practice of budo with the primary objective to understand "Ai Ki". the framework is about 50 years old now and has proven to help many reach their personal goals, and it is a sound and stable platform to build a decent martial body on if you train it honestly, correctly...and often!

 
Old 12-23-2008, 10:10 PM   #575
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

#574 - Very nice post, Kevin

 

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