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Old 12-22-2008, 07:15 PM   #501
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I've had some encounters on "the street", and it's never been one or two. From what I understand, most attacks are sneak attacks, and not by anyone especially well built or trained. That's been my experience.

Sorry Charlie...

Best,
Ron
This has been my experience to..... It much depends on whether its an opportunist's or group working on a random "easy" target with intention. ie
He's on his own lets see if we can rob him or do a "runner" or both otherwise known as "bilking" in the Hackney Licensed trade.....
One of the downsides of the job, which 99% of cab owners will experience at least once in their life as a cabbie......
Let alone the assaults verbal and physical encountered most weeks at the weekends.......

Tony
 
Old 12-22-2008, 07:19 PM   #502
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/
PM me here when you're ready.I'm not looking for privacy, I'm looking for a decent signal to noise ratio, so what is needed is you not trolling this forum, not me PM'ing Mr Parland.
Oh, I get it, you're not joking. Ok, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree( btw, I'm gonna click on a link you provide, yeah right).Btw, you can start holding your breath, waiting for me to PM you.

Last edited by GeneC : 12-22-2008 at 07:24 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-22-2008, 08:05 PM   #503
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Oh, I get it, you're not joking. Ok, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree( btw, I'm gonna click on a link you provide, yeah right).Btw, you can start holding your breath, waiting for me to PM you.
Gene, I'll vouch for the link. I'm a member there as are a few others around here. It's free, like here, and you can browse without registering. In fact, you're much more likely to find people sympathetic to the view that "aikido is nonsense" and more benign variants there than you will here. But it's also true that it's verbally no-holds-barred while here things are quite civil. If they agree with you, they'll throw you a parade; if they disagree, well, you'll see...

[Come to think of it, I'm surprised this thread hadn't yet invoked the Jun ex Machina a few pages back to remind people to be civil... Must be the holidays and all ]

Last edited by Joe McParland : 12-22-2008 at 08:06 PM. Reason: typo

 
Old 12-22-2008, 08:47 PM   #504
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Wondering.... are you into Zen?, if so, what's your opinion about Yamaoka Tesshu's Tachigiri No Seigan:

"The disciples of Yamaoka made a vow to engage in the following progressive training:

1st stage- Two day commitment to engage in 200 contests per day, alone, and without stopping against 20 opponents who are permitted to rest and attack in rotation. Prior to committing to the 1 st stage, the disciple had to carry out the training for 1000 days without fail.

2nd stage - Three day commitment - same as above.

3rd stage - 7 day commitment - same as above.

4th stage - 1000 days training without stopping, from 4 am to 8 pm each day, competing against 100 opponents per day."

Source: An Introduction for a Round Table Talk about Zen and Aikido Training, by T. K. Chiba, 8th dan
Sorry, Demitrio---I didn't mean to let this question slide; I got caught up with some other things. I won't side-step a challenge

First, yes, I am an avid student of zen; however, you should assume I am as flawed in that study as I am in aikido. I make no claims.

As for the question: One way to put out a fire is to throw a bucket of water on it. Another way is to throw a bucket of gasoline on it.

I suspect that by the last encounter on the last day of this training, the student would say he lost any thought of competition long ago.

I have heard of a particular line of zen that practices a few solo bokken kata continuously during a substantial sesshin, with the usual little breaks for rice and water and a few hours of sleep. [I don't remember the details; I'd have to research.] This practice starts with no adversary but the self; the other starts with adversaries. I suspect all the adversaries disappear in time

Thank you for the Chiba link, by the way. I enjoyed reading that.

 
Old 12-22-2008, 09:13 PM   #505
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Come to think of it, I'm surprised this thread hadn't yet invoked the Jun ex Machina a few pages back to remind people to be civil... Must be the holidays and all ]
Like I said, I won't stand and go toe to toe with a MMA punk on 'roids and/or a criminal felon. Other than that, why I declare, don't you think this is civil enough?

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-22-2008, 09:18 PM   #506
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Maybe it can, but I'd think maybe in a different venue. For instance, In Marine Corps bootcamp, one of the things they did was, I walked into a room, there is a table and a chair and an M16 laying on the table. I was told to sit down and dis-assemble the M16. As soon as I sat down, the lights went out and they lit a whole pack of firecrackers at each end of the table and started yelling at me to hurry. Well the first time I couldn't even hardly move, but I (we) quicky learned to ignore the commotion and use the light from the firecrackers to dis-assemble and re-assemble the weapon.
I have no problem with aikido under "combat conditions." (Some schools try to create this with different levels / intensities of randori practice.) Especially when I'm working with kids, I like to mix up randori. The last variation I did recently, for example, was the usual add-an-attacker bit until---surprise!---I added another defender to the mix without telling them

If I'm instructing and I see someone who's not focused on the mats, I've been known to sneak up and throw him or "kill" him with a tanto. Sometimes, if the partner allows it to happen for fun, the partner will be doing push-ups while the dead one recovers until they learn they're in this together. If I see competition developing, I'll try to channel it. I borrow some from military experience, some from zen experience, some from learning to deal with my own kids, and some from the seat of my pants It depends on what I want to do that day, what level of focus is required, and sometimes how mischievous I am feeling.

If I could get away with firecrackers, I'd be the first to incorporate them!

In some sense, I don't want them to develop a preconceived notion even of what aikido practice is

 
Old 12-22-2008, 09:22 PM   #507
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Like I said, I won't stand and go toe to toe with a MMA punk on 'roids and/or a criminal felon. Other than that, why I declare, don't you think this is civil enough?
Whether Jun appears or not is not my call

 
Old 12-22-2008, 09:28 PM   #508
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

i'm leavittk over there. Been a while since I have been on Bullshido, but my former MMA training partner is one of the mods there.

 
Old 12-22-2008, 09:36 PM   #509
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Joe,

I got it on the competition thing, and I understand where you are coming from.

I go to Portugual every year to compete in the European BJJ Championships. (Won't this year though).

I never really know who I am fighting and all that, never really train to fight per se. I just get on the plane, go over, go through the process and fight.

When I climb in the ring, I am not thinking about anything at all. Not the crowds, and not my opponent per se...just entering and going for that first contact, then what happens, happens. No preconceptions.

You have to learn to deal with the pressure and the adrenal dump, it is a rush and it is real. When I finish, my body is smoked and my hands are smoked from grabbing so damn hard! I don't know why I do this in competition, because I never do it in practice!

I do agree, though, with your concerns as they relate to the practice of aikido. I think aiki is a very narrow set of parameters that is focused on training some very specific things...aiki.

 
Old 12-22-2008, 09:37 PM   #510
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Joe McParland wrote: View Post
I have no problem with aikido under "combat conditions." ....In some sense, I don't want them to develop a preconceived notion even of what aikido practice is
Yeah, like I said before , maybe the "Combat mindset" is better trained outside of Aikido practice (altho martially effective training is deifinitely a must).

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-22-2008, 09:38 PM   #511
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Whether Jun appears or not is not my call
Oh, I know, I was just asking you.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-22-2008, 09:45 PM   #512
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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i'm leavittk over there. Been a while since I have been on Bullshido, but my former MMA training partner is one of the mods there.
Yeah, I did the MMA thing, it's a young man's game and I'm past my prime for that. AFA going over there, I'm no fool, besides, I get all the verbal abuse I need right here.( btw, is there any chance of you condensing, just a little?)[kidding].

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-22-2008, 09:45 PM   #513
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Yeah, like I said before , maybe the "Combat mindset" is better trained outside of Aikido practice (altho martially effective training is deifinitely a must).
I'm confused, I thought you said aikido had to evolve?

Now you are saying that there are things that are better trained outside of the practice?

What are the boundaries you see surrounding aikido and why would a combat mindset be better trained outside of aikido?

 
Old 12-22-2008, 09:55 PM   #514
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Yeah, I did the MMA thing, it's a young man's game and I'm past my prime for that. AFA going over there, I'm no fool, besides, I get all the verbal abuse I need right here.( btw, is there any chance of you condensing, just a little?)[kidding].
Naw, I am going on 44 and still going strong, although those younger guys kick my ass every now and then these days.

That is sort of my concern with all this talk about effectiveness. Alot of it has to do with age and agility. To me, there is many more reasons to study than that.

Honestly I can't tell if you are serious or not with all the talk about mcdojos and what not. It sounds pretty absurb to me, but hey it is your concept so knock yourself out.

If you look at the founder's goals of aikido it has not much to do with the things you are talking about. Why on earth would you hang around a bunch of guys like us and argue in our own backyard about this stuff if you are not alligned with it.

I think that is the point about the recommendation to go to Bullshido. There you can find like minded folks and we can go on there as well and banter this topic alot more liberally than here on Aikiweb. We can call each other names, disparage each others skill sets, challenge each other to "throwdowns" and then call you a "momma's boy" when you backdown from the fight.

 
Old 12-22-2008, 09:58 PM   #515
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

BTW, if you haven't figured it out yet. Most of the guys that are discussing this with you on here are not what most folks would consider aikibunnies. We take what we do very seriously and frankly will agree that there is much aikido out there that is not trained correctly. We just don't necessarily think that we need to move away from the philosophical base and current methodology to get there. We simply believe that AIkido needs to be trained correctly within the parameters established.

 
Old 12-22-2008, 09:59 PM   #516
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Gene, you want me to be short...read my tag line below. I put it there for a reason a couple of years ago.

 
Old 12-22-2008, 10:18 PM   #517
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I'm confused, I thought you said aikido had to evolve?

Now you are saying that there are things that are better trained outside of the practice?

What are the boundaries you see surrounding aikido and why would a combat mindset be better trained outside of aikido?
No, I never did say Aikido HAD to evolve. I did say all things will change, no matter what. I did say that if there's room for improvement, there's room to evolve.

The "combat mindset" is something else entirely. IMO, training /practice in the dojo should be simply mastering the basic techniques( including relaxing/clearing the mind/finding/connecting with centers), which should be martially effective, but I consider the "combat mindset' training an extension of the dojo, whic may include things other than Aikdio( in my case, more military/gun related)..

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-22-2008, 10:32 PM   #518
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

[quote=Kevin Leavitt;221758]That is sort of my concern with all this talk about effectiveness. Alot of it has to do with age and agility. To me, there is many more reasons to study than that. [/quote

What concern? How hard is it to make sure when you begion to eneter,you make sure you didn't sut open yourself up to a tsuki( which could be a punch/kick, but in the pure sense a knife stab)?

Quote:
Kevin Leavtt wrote:
Honestly I can't tell if you are serious or not with all the talk about mcdojos and what not. It sounds pretty absurb to me, but hey it is your concept so knock yourself out
Hey, I didn't say anything about "MCdojos", that's somebody else's words. I do believe if Aikido is going to be a business (and it is a business, just ask those with dojos), it needs to go large. I do believe Aikido should have their own dojos and not be renting space in karate schools, etc They should be franchised and have natl recognition.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
If you look at the founder's goals of aikido it has not much to do with the things you are talking about.
Well, for one, folks don't seem to know what Osensei's goals were. Fact is, he took it world wide, so obviously he wanted it to expand, so I believe that that's exactly what he wanted.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-22-2008, 10:36 PM   #519
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I got it on the competition thing, and I understand where you are coming from.

[...]

I do agree, though, with your concerns as they relate to the practice of aikido. I think aiki is a very narrow set of parameters that is focused on training some very specific things...aiki.
I think I might trust you to do such a thing, Kevin

 
Old 12-22-2008, 10:37 PM   #520
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
BTW, if you haven't figured it out yet. Most of the guys that are discussing this with you on here are not what most folks would consider aikibunnies. We take what we do very seriously and frankly will agree that there is much aikido out there that is not trained correctly. We just don't necessarily think that we need to move away from the philosophical base and current methodology to get there. We simply believe that AIkido needs to be trained correctly within the parameters established.
Well, I take Aikido seriously too and take no issue with the philisophical/spitiual side of the house, but if the methods and practices can be improved upon, then I'm all for it. We're just gnna have to agree to disagree on that.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-22-2008, 10:52 PM   #521
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Gene, you want me to be short...read my tag line below. I put it there for a reason a couple of years ago.
Yeah, I'm not being distrustful, I'm just asking to try and state your point in a single sentence, if possible, as it's really tedious to wade thru a bunch of words to find a point hidden in there somewhere. Any point should be able to be said in a single sentence. If not, something's very wrong. Just asking, if not, oh well.
Btw, I'm seeing some folks being very cynical about any mention of change, yet they'll agree that Aikido is broke.

Besides, I believe Gen. Patton was wrong about that. However , I like what he said about, "Everybody thinks you have to die for your Country, Bu*&SH#$, I say live for your Country! Let the other poor bas&^%$ die for his!"

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-23-2008, 02:36 AM   #522
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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What concern? How hard is it to make sure when you begion to eneter,you make sure you didn't sut open yourself up to a tsuki( which could be a punch/kick, but in the pure sense a knife stab)?
Quote:
Hey, I didn't say anything about "MCdojos", that's somebody . I do believe Aikido should have their own dojos and not be renting space in karate schools, etc They should be franchised and have natl recognition.
Quote:
Well, for one, folks don't seem to know what Osensei's goals were. Fact is, he took it world wide, so obviously he wanted it to expand, so I believe that that's exactly what he wanted.
Well I'm a little perplex.

Are there no no teachers in the US who teach an aikido that "works"? No teachers who teach the martial aspects of aikido?
Is there only "dancing"?

Are there no real aikido dojo, standing on their own feet? How comes that Aikido seems not to be popular in the US?

Hasn't aikido spread throughout in the US? I thought that Tohei, Saotome, Yamada (just the names I know) and many others had done a good job?

I really can't believe that.
Or am I getting something wrong?

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 12-23-2008 at 02:48 AM.
 
Old 12-23-2008, 06:12 AM   #523
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Gene wrote:

Quote:
What concern? How hard is it to make sure when you begion to eneter,you make sure you didn't sut open yourself up to a tsuki( which could be a punch/kick, but in the pure sense a knife stab)?
Well, in my book, you just gave a good example of proper AIkido. This has nothing to do with evolution but doing what we already do properly.

Gene wrote:

Quote:
Hey, I didn't say anything about "MCdojos", that's somebody else's words. I do believe if Aikido is going to be a business (and it is a business, just ask those with dojos), it needs to go large. I do believe Aikido should have their own dojos and not be renting space in karate schools, etc They should be franchised and have natl recognition.
Well this is not entirely true. I am a member of Aikido Schools of Ueshiba and we have many dojos that are doing just fine. My own dojo has been in exsistence for about 10 years in it's current form, total lineage inlcuding a couple of moves...probably closer to 20 years.

We are located in Northern VA, in one of the highest cost real estate areas. Lots of reasons why we rent and have the location we do. But we are doing quite well with what we have. I can tell you that I recieve back in many ways more than what I pay into the dojo...and we are solvent so we are doing something right.

Our "Hombo" dojo, Saotome Sensei's dojo is across town in "North DC". Nice place, owned by Saotome Sensei and ASU...doing well, nice Japanese Garden in the back, cherry floors etc.

National Recognition? Well Aikido by nature is developed into various "types", under the umbrella of Aikido. ASU is a member of Aikikai as are others, some are some are not. I have a little blue passport that was stamped and certified that says I am a member of ASU and Aikikai. I can take it into Hombo dojo in Japan and it looks just like the Japanese guys standing next to me, and I am recognized as Yudansha of he organization.

Quote:
Well, for one, folks don't seem to know what Osensei's goals were. Fact is, he took it world wide, so obviously he wanted it to expand, so I believe that that's exactly what he wanted.
I admit that a lot of folks are trying to beat a round peg into a square whole and trying to make aikido into something other than what it was designed to do. Kinda like taking a Land Rover and entering it into the Indy 500 and being frustrated because you don't know why you are not doing well with it.

So then, we start talking about re-inventing the Land Rover so it will do well in the race. You know, evolving it. When we could simply drop it off at the dealer leave it alone, and buy a car that is already designed to race in that particular race.

From your perspective what O'Sensei's goals and vision was?

Last edited by Kevin Leavitt : 12-23-2008 at 06:13 AM. Reason: spelln

 
Old 12-23-2008, 06:25 AM   #524
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Yeah, I'm not being distrustful, I'm just asking to try and state your point in a single sentence, if possible, as it's really tedious to wade thru a bunch of words to find a point hidden in there somewhere. Any point should be able to be said in a single sentence. If not, something's very wrong. Just asking, if not, oh well.
Btw, I'm seeing some folks being very cynical about any mention of change, yet they'll agree that Aikido is broke.

Besides, I believe Gen. Patton was wrong about that. However , I like what he said about, "Everybody thinks you have to die for your Country, Bu*&SH#$, I say live for your Country! Let the other poor bas&^%$ die for his!"
No you cannot do forum discussions in one sentence. Most have to take the form of a debate. That means it has structure to it.

At a minimum you have the following:

Sentence 1: I disagree. (Not you are wrong).
Sentence 2: This is why I disagree.
Sentence 3: Here is my counter point or an example
Sentence 4: In Closing... or Therefore,

Or something along those lines. One sentence is just an argument and does nothing to lend to productive conversation.

I am not the best writer in the world by any stretch of the imagination. Web Forums are also not meant to be PhD level work either, but a place where you actually have dialogue going on.

Most folks tend to type as they think at work, or what not, so you get what you get, which can get long winded sometimes.

If I am boring you and you don't feel like taking the time to read through it then don't.

To be honest, I have found that most people that are critical of thing do so out of ignorance of the issue they are talking about. Very few people take time to understand something before blasting out a bunch of stuff and making assumptions. It is what gets people killed in combat. Patton was actually a pretty smart man and challenged constantly the status quo, but he did so critically and with lots of research.

Another Gentlemen I know says it slightly different. Stephen Covey of 7 Habits Fame. Seek to understand before being understood.

Personally I think this is the key to world peace and the real underlying message off aikido. Seeking to understand, before being understood.

 
Old 12-23-2008, 08:40 AM   #525
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Yes, that's all zenzy and fuzzy , but on the other hand, the simplest truth needs no decoration. A single word of truth is larger than a thousand worthless words. The more the words, the smaller the point.
Some things are irreducibly complex. Descriptions of them, well, they are not short, anyway -- look at all the discussion on this entire forum, for example.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 

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