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Old 12-20-2008, 02:40 PM   #426
Joe McParland
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

As a side note: It is interesting, though: The different threads' discussions are giving different cross-sections of what may be our same root questions. It seems we have to track all of them to keep up with the one discussion! What is Aikido? What is Hidden? Evolution of MA? ... Wow!

 
Old 12-20-2008, 02:49 PM   #427
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Seems to me you're more interested in continuing this negative personal attack rather than contributing something positive to the thread. i find it amazing you can even focus when your mind is so clouded by the sarcasm.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Well...

Let's see if you find the following beneficial enough.Misogi (and related ascetic practises) seem to be fundamental for the developement of power, both physical an psychological, required for aikido to be martially effective. Disregard this kind of ascetic training if you feel it not compatible with Christianity, and subtstitute it with pumping iron at the gym, but don't complaint if later you find your aikido lacking enough firepower.
And you'tre telling me there's no other concept other than Misogi that accomplishes he same result? I believe there is. The concept of exercising self discipline and intense focus was not invented by the Japanese nor does it have to be a religious experience.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
I suppose the ones who have real experience in vicious fighting: the ones who have been there, done that for real don't find enjoyable writing about tis kind of things in internet forums as it happens to the civilians who also have been there, done that but are not psychopaths themselves nor the readers. You want gore? Not here. Look for other kind of forum.Got the point?
Yes, I do, but perhaps you don't, as I never was talking about gore stories ( I have my own) or anything of the sort. I meant what I said when I said that they could relate their experience as it applies to this thread, i.e. the principles of martial arts.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-20-2008, 03:39 PM   #428
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

I'd like to say right here that I certainly don't intend to be sarcastic, as I find that to be a negative, dysfunctional trait and I personally have made it my personal goal to help stamp out dysfunctionalism, as well as evolving Aikido. I'm amazed that supposed 'enlightened' folks still resort to this when at an empasse with their communicational skills.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I was referring from the conversation from about post #303 on.You still have not materially answered anything directly I have written, you simply move on and continue with the same theme of your discussion.
Now Kevin, that's just not true. Oh, I get it, if I don't directly respond to everything you say, then I'm surely an idiot, 'cause you da man, right and only a fool would ignore you. Well, to tell you the truth, I took that winded response to be rhetorical and that's why I didn't respond to it. For instance, you spent ALL those words (you like to 'orate', don't you? I'm tempted to ask your troops if you're one of those 'looeys' that like the sound of their own voices{ now don't go gettting yer panties in a wad, I mean that effectionately}) simply to say we need to clarify the term "martial effecetiveness". In fact ,in the very next post (#304), you toyed with the idea to start focusing on me personally.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Much of what you quoted was taken out of context of conversations that occurred much longer than you have been here on aikiweb.
Now Kevin, are you sure you're not exaggerating just to make a point? Now why would a fellow need to do that?

Quote:
Kevin leavitt wrote:
You STILL Contend that Royce Gracie came later on? Really? He won the first UFC which was conceived of and ran l by his brother Rorian and Art
Still on about this( and you say I have to be right about everything?)? All I know is I have "The best hits of the UFC, Vol I, II, and III and the first one goes way back to the beginning of the UFC and the Gracies ain't in it. What is in it is a bunch of karateka getting their clocks cleaned by some hard hitting boxers.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Here is a very direct question:

What is it specifically that needs to evolve in aikido?

OR

What does aikido need to evolve into?
Ok, now I have answered those questions numerous times(maybe it you that's not listening/paying attrention). So once again, in the context that evolove means to"adapt to improve to survive". In my opinion, that'd be to ensure that every principle is martially sound and effective as it can be and cannot be improved on further; As well as every technique, so in order to do that, competition would have to be a part of Aikido ( and/or combat). Then, for Aikido to futher evolve, many more Dojos need to open and be filled to capacity. In order to do that a huge nationwide marketing campaign thatd make a Aikido the coolest thing since sliced bread, with a national logo, a new and exciting and popular movie star with a series of hit movies that have kids running to sign up and practice Aikdo. The'd be Aikido branching out and incorporating with T'ai ch'i to appeal to the seniors and BJJ for the older kids and TKD for the youngsters and Tae Bo for the 'housewives' and definitly pick-up after-school care.

Now, I know this way, way out there, but in keeping with this thread, these are my ideas. Hey, H.G wells wrote of "armored land vehicles" 50 years before tanks and Jules Verne about underwater craft many years before sub-marines, Buck rodgers about space travel, etc., so anything's possible.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-20-2008, 05:41 PM   #429
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
How do you know Part.B is trying? or Part C? This is why a contest will ensure both are trying their best...
And while we're at it, let's make those competitions really motivational and kill the loser...that would ensure they're REALLY doing their best, right?
I've been in many competitions. Not everyone was doing their best; which brings me back to my earlier point: only a concept of besting yourself (masakatsu agatsu) can consistently promote people doing their best.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 12-20-2008, 05:44 PM   #430
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
Ha! Yeah, maybe. Alas, I made a bit of an error---well, a big error---with "budo is formless" bit. "Budo" itself as a concept is also just form Lots of arguments have roots in different understandings about what budo is. Insomuch as a budoka is someone who embodies the principles of budo---and is bound in some way by thoughts such as "this is budo," "that is not budo," "I have to do this because I'm a budoka," or "I must not do that because I'm a budoka"---then that someone is still stuck in form.
This sounds like the mind of a 3 Kyu student to me.

Quote:
But, if you need a form to point you back toward no-form, then budo's as good a path as any, I suppose!
In short the quickest route to "no form" "Chop wood ...Carry water" or as my Roshi famously put it... "Make Love... Drive Freeway" or My Sensei..."Accept and Enter."

Quote:
Some genuinely good folks are getting themselves bent out of shape trying to make others understand some tightly-held points of view. [And, no, I certainly don't exempt myself from that. ] In this sense, the players are not different---they're just carrying different flags, speaking different languages, or whatever.
Yup.

Quote:
If Gene said, "I think 2+2=5," would it really matter? To what lengths would I go to convince him he's wrong, since clearly "2+2=6"!
Well I can show you the path but you must discover and experiance the real truth for yourself would be my answer to this common beginner "conundrum". And most importantly... if you don't practice as much as you can with determined focus You'll never reach the summit.

William

As side note for those of you who caught Malcom Gladwell on Charlie Rose last night talking about the nature of extraodinaraly successful people (which was the subject of his new book The Outliers) and Charlie's other guest Colvin Geoff Editor of Fortune who wrote the book "Talent is Overrated" One clear theme emerged...
The main measure of extraodinary abliltiy is.... focused determined practice over a period of at least ten+ years and this ability can be developed at any time in a person's life if they are willing to put in the time and effort
 
Old 12-20-2008, 06:00 PM   #431
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
...most importantly... if you don't practice as much as you can with determined focus You'll never reach the summit.
Why can't I just take a pill or watch it done on a screen like Mr. Jetson!
...I gotta get back on the mat.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 12-20-2008, 07:39 PM   #432
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
This sounds like the mind of a 3 Kyu student to me.
Ranking minds is a tenuous business

Honestly, I've seen high ranking folks tangled in their organizations, cultural trappings, and their other day-to-day affairs as often as I've seen them simply "not present" in their teaching. Granted, though, I've not seen too many samurai-wannabes outside of the "pro tour" or uchi-deshi scenes, but I tend to not find myself in those circles anyway

As for those folks who really really cling so tightly to the idea of being a budoka / samurai, or being some kind of ultimate fighter, or anything else, they might have the absolutely quickest way to the top of the mountain: Falling off of it! ... well, assuming it doesn't kill them, of course.

Quote:
My Sensei..."Accept and Enter."
I think I've seen you post "accept and enter" before---I do like that. Consider it stolen

 
Old 12-20-2008, 09:22 PM   #433
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Seems to me you're more interested in continuing this negative personal attack rather than contributing something positive to the thread. i find it amazing you can even focus when your mind is so clouded by the sarcasm.
Personal attack? Sarcasm?

It seems you have no clue about what those thing are. You're on, possibly, the safest ma related forum in that regard. We don't do that kind of things here.

If I wanted to attack you personally I could have pointed to your previously statements about your OCD and bipolar disorder, I could have questioned about you serving in the USMC, or about your Boxing, Karate, Muai Thai, MMA, Jits training (when, where, how can I contact them to confirm you training ...), or contacting Imbuido Sensei (who is a regular poster here, who surely enjoy your posts) to confirm if you're an student of her.... You know, things like that and with abundant doses of sarcasm.

But I have not done that, so your complaints don't make sense, like (respectfully imho, of course) most of your posts.

Quote:
And you'tre telling me there's no other concept other than Misogi that accomplishes he same result?
I'm telling you that discarding misogi because you're Christian; probably an heretic one, under my Roman Catholic -which is the one an only true one- point of view* is like someone saying he's not going to swim in the sea because is Muslim.

Quote:
I believe there is. The concept of exercising self discipline and intense focus was not invented by the Japanese nor does it have to be a religious experience.
Well, you can believe what you want but name one method which produce the same results as the obtained by misogi (and related practises) practitioneers.

Btw, spirituality and religion are not the same things.

Quote:
Yes, I do,
Video or it didn't happened.

OTOH & FWIW,
Quote:
Hey, H.G wells wrote of "armored land vehicles" 50 years before tanks and Jules Verne about underwater craft many years before sub-marines, Buck rodgers about space travel, etc., so anything's possible.
DaVinci worked on "armoured land vehicles" hundred of years before Wells, Verne about submarines 6 years after the first mechanical powered french submarine was built and Münchhausen (big pun intended) went to the Moon waaaay before this Buck Rodgers you're talking about (Verne "sent" people to the moon 50 years before Rogers was born).

In short: You're a troll and what is worse, a bad, illiterate and style lacking one.

*Don't take that in all seriousness guys, it's Christmas time,

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 12-20-2008 at 09:37 PM.
 
Old 12-20-2008, 10:14 PM   #434
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
And while we're at it, let's make those competitions really motivational and kill the loser...that would ensure they're REALLY doing their best, right?
Wrong!
Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
I've been in many competitions. Not everyone was doing their best; which brings me back to my earlier point: only a concept of besting yourself (masakatsu agatsu) can consistently promote people doing their best.
So how is that better? How do you know you're doing better? How do you know if your technique is martially effective? How do you know you're not practicing bad habits?
I've been in competitons too and I feel good that all my opponents were doing their best(most don't want to lose, humans are naturally competitive). I guarantee if records follows competitors, folks'll do the best they can do.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-20-2008, 10:59 PM   #435
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Joe,

your post, 423, is pretty much on the money. We (the Army) teach a grappling based system now for a couple of different reasons. However, you actually covered it pretty well I think with concern to using a Rock. Low skill and availability and common sense make it something not really worth "teaching".

Using a Rock in that matter is more about the attitude and willingness to fight than the amount of skill necessary to fight...which is a big reason we train the way we do today.

It is not so much about "effectiveness", but instilling the willingess to close with and destroy the enemy".

The willingness is really a big part of budo. In the civilian world, you can replace willingness to destroy, with courage to face if you were so philosophically focused in a particular way.

 
Old 12-20-2008, 11:27 PM   #436
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Thanks, Kevin. Some people believe it's important that I say something lucid here every once in a while---at least to keep people guessing. I think I've met my quota for a bit

 
Old 12-20-2008, 11:35 PM   #437
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Well, at this point, Gene is all I can say is good luck in your evolution of aikido. I hope as a new student that you have lots of followers.

You might want to go back and watch UFC1 and 2 and a few others.

Here is a link to IMDB showing the fighters for UFC 1 which Royce Gracie won. I confirmed it actually matches the DVD that I have at the house so maybe you have a different version or something I haven't seen.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0487977/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfZWQBT7WQ4

The you tube video above also shows Royce Defeating Ken Shamrock as well.

What I find interesting is not so much proven you wrong, but that the fact that you won't even acknowledge this small bit of info as an "oops" maybe I was wrong.

This kinda shows me that you seem to be pretty much a one sided, I am right no matter what facts are presented, kinda guy. Not a good start here on aikiweb if you are really concerned with building a community and seeking knowledge. Doesn't do much for your credibility either.

Anyway, I am really focusing about discussing what you see aikido evolving into, yet you really offer very little to us to discuss concretely, imo.

as best I can tell you want it to evolve into some kind of ultimate fighting system.

At 49 and recovering from a heart attack do you really think it is something that you can practice in that respect?

I am having enough issues trying to understand form, function, and learning how to deal with proprioception within the framework of BJJ and Aikido much less evolve it into something else. I am also of late having some personal success from the basic methodology of aikido, so thanks, I'll continue to practice it in the manner I am currently practicing it.

Gene wrote:

Quote:
For instance, you spent ALL those words (you like to 'orate', don't you? I'm tempted to ask your troops if you're one of those 'looeys' that like the sound of their own voices{ now don't go gettting yer panties in a wad, I mean that effectionately}) simply to say we need to clarify the term "martial effecetiveness". In fact ,in the very next post (#304), you toyed with the idea to start focusing on me personally.
You can ask anyone that knows me anything you want to. I am not too concerned as I am quite comfortable with myself as a soldier and a leader. I tend to lead by example and tend to put my money where my mouth is.

As such, I'd be happy to train with you at any place at anytime you'd like and we can define effectiveness and evolvement. Where are you located? Not looking for a beat down or anything like that, just think that sometimes it is best to physically work through these types of discussions vice talk past one another.

A lot of the evolvement you talk about is not so much about the art, but I think the person. I am evolving constantly. I am not practicing or defining aikido the same way I did 15 years ago. I understand it through various practices, Judo and BJJ. and I use competition as a tool to measure myself by and to help improve.

The methodology of aikido though, is a good one if trained properly. It instills good habits and correct responses, alignment, balance, breath, and proprioception.

That said, it appears that there really is not much else I can say.

If you are ever interested in getting together, find yourself in Northern VA, please let me know, and I will be happy to get togeter with you and train. It sounds like from your background that you have lots of ideas and concepts that might contribute much to my further understanding of martial effectiveness.

I do think you need to work on your online delivery and construct of your arguments though, it will go a long way in getting folks to discuss concepts and ideas with you in a more rational and intelligent manner.

I do like to talk on here about things, but I tend to try and leave the personal attacks out of it and to not denegrate to "panties in a wad" kinda of discussion here as it is not really what we are about here on aikiweb. Bullshido might be a better place to discuss in this manner...I go over there from time to time, but haven't much in the past couple of years as it was very difficult to find any critical discussions of value there.

 
Old 12-21-2008, 06:35 AM   #438
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I do like to talk on here about things, but I tend to try and leave the personal attacks out of it and to not denegrate to "panties in a wad" kinda of discussion here as it is not really what we are about here on aikiweb.
Seconded.

Quote:
Bullshido might be a better place to discuss in this manner...
Well, maybe he should start posting there. I still go there from time to time and I'm sure he will enjoy the way things are discussed in that site.
 
Old 12-21-2008, 10:47 AM   #439
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Joe,your post, 423, is pretty much on the money. .. .
I don't know what money, but certainly not my money. In a sentence, what is his point? I'm wondering if that's even possible.
For someone to question why the US has different branches of military( it easy, Army are foot solders, Air Force in the air, Navy in the Oceans and seas, Coast Guard guards US shores and the Marines does all of the above{they invented the amphibious assault} and then go on to 'analyze' a concept using a inappropriate mathmatical geometric term? Highly suspect.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-21-2008, 12:12 PM   #440
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Well, at this point, Gene is all I can say is good luck in your evolution of aikido. I hope as a new student that you have lots of followers.
Kevin , I wish I could accept your wish as genuine, but judging from the following, I'm pretty sure it's not. AllI I wanted to do here is try to participate on this site ( what the owner intended) and talk about the topic-"The evolution of Aikido", but folks seem to want to talk about everything else but that. Rather than folks "play along" and offer their own ideas (even if it was 'what if'' ) they'd rather lay in wait for some other poor sucker (which I guess in this case, is me) to come along and offer mine, then pounce and ambush and pick them apart. Pretty cowardly and pack mentality, if ya ask me.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
You might want to go back and watch UFC...What I find interesting is not so much proven you wrong, but that the fact that you won't even acknowledge this small bit of info as an "oops" maybe I was wrong.
But the thing is ,You didn't prove me wrong. I was right IN THE CONTEXT that I layed out the history of MMA- it did in fact start out with all MA stepping up and testing their MA, only to discover the flaws the hard way and the more "martially effective" MA consistantly winning and the UFC DID evolve to a superior MA. That was my whole point. The sad fact here how important it is for you to be right about something. Well, to show you how big I am, I'll concede that the single fact that a Gracy was in the 1st UFC, I was mistaken about that.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Anyway, I am really focusing about discussing what you see aikido evolving into, yet you really offer very little to us to discuss concretely, imo.
Ok, but why dissect my offer? Why not come up with your own ideas? Why aren't you saying, "Wow Gene, that's some pretty imaginative ideas, but here's my ideas..."?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
..as best I can tell you want it to evolve into some kind of ultimate fighting system.
Well, you're putting the cart before the horse. More like, as a result of Aikido being ulimately evolved, it is the ultimate fighting system, too fierce to be in the UFC, as it is a sword based and total killing system( but the very Budo concept of it prevents an Aikidoka from producing harm, much less killing )MA.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
At 49 and recovering from a heart attack do you really think it is something that you can practice in that respect
Now kevin, is that a genuine concern of yours or a disparaging remark to my core. For your info, after many ultra-sounds and xrays and MRI's and EKG's, there is no damage to my heart or arteries, so other than HBPand stress( which I'm taking meds), I'm healthy as a horse. I'm contining my practice and working out (alot more cardio) every day, except for that I had knee surgery this last week (torn miniscus), but I expect full recovery and even better than before( I was in alot of pain and couldn't sieza).Hard to believe that just a couple of years ago ,I was working out hard , 6 days a week in MMA (6 rds of kickboxing, 1 hrs BJJ grappling and then go run stadium stairs and sprints). I hurt my knee in a water skiing accident (I'm from Florida) about 4 yrs ago, but it's "come to a head", just now.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I'm having tough issues trying to understand form, function, and learning how to deal with proprioception within the framework of BJJ and Aikido much less evolve it into something else. I am also of late having some personal success from the basic methodology of aikido, so thanks, I'll continue to practice it in the manner I am currently practicing it.
See, I have never said (nor implied) anyone has to adopt my ideas, they were for intertainment purposes only, this is something folks have presumed. Btw, what is "proprioception"?(I don't know, folks have been just tossing inappropriate terms out left and right). Oh, ok, Merriam-Webster says it's the " the reception of stimuli produced within the organism"( like the synapsis in the brain), so it's a biological term, so let's see if it fits. You're saying, "learning how to deal with the reception of stimuli within the organism of the framework of BJJ and Aikido, much less evolve it into something else". Nop , sorry I just don't see the advantage of using that word.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Ask anyone who knows me anything you want to. I am not too concerned as I am quite comfortable with myself as a soldier and a leader. I tend to lead by example and tend to put my money where my mouth is.
Sigh, you read what you want to, huh? I said I was tempted to (but that feeling passed).My point is, is it possible to state your points in a single sentence or do you feel like it takes several pargraphs to explain your point? You do use a whole lot of words to say very little.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
A such I'd be happy to train with you at any place at anytime you'd like and we can define effectiveness and evolvement. Where are you located? Not looking for a beat down or anything like that, just think that sometimes it is best to physically work through these types of discussions vice talk past one another.
Well, you know , unless we were at the same level, it'd be
pretty boring for one of us, but my point is we should be able to discuss this, or any concept with civility and ease and it actually be pleasant, or not and we agree to disagree and move on. Not trying to find flaws in the messenger.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
A lot of the evolvement you talk about is not so much about the art, but I think the person. I am evolving constantly. I am not practicing or defining aikido the same way I did 15 years ago. I understand it through various practices, Judo and BJJ. and I use competition as a tool to measure myself by and to help improve.
And I happen to disagree with that. I believe that competition is a great way ( the next best thing to combat) to directly test your techniques as well, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
The methodology of Aikido though, is a good one if trained properly. It instills good habits and correct responses, alignment, balance, breath, and proprioception.
Uhh, isn't the "methodology" the study of the methods? Anyway, yes ,but the that all depends on if (and that's a big if) it's being trained (martially)correctly. Do you see the difference between properly and correctly?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
That said, it appears that there really is not much else I can say.
But yet you go on with 3 more long paragraphs. You have critiques of me, I suggest you learn to reduce you point into a single sentence or paragraph. and realize that apparently you can dish it out but can't take it. I'm quite capable of civilly discussing any topic or concept here, but folks (including you) got testy with me, rather than contribute to the thread. If other folks'd play nice here, there wouldn't be an issue.

Last edited by GeneC : 12-21-2008 at 12:22 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-21-2008, 01:03 PM   #441
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Personal attack? Sarcasm?

It seems you have no clue about what those thing are.
In short: You're a troll and what is worse, a bad, illiterate and style lacking one.
??? Come on DC, your post #389 was you starting on me( with blatant sarcasm). You even misquoted me, saying I said that(legally- libelous). Now this(probably the worst). I'm not a troll, I'm sincerely trying to discuss this topic and I use the utmost respect and articulation, but other folks got personal with me first. I challenge anyone to show where I attacked someone else first. But even before that, your posts were flippant. Is this the best you can do? Is it not possible for you to present your own ideas, instead of attacking me for mine?
Btw, I talked to my Sensei just the other night at our Dojo Christmas dinner and she didn't say anything about this. In fact, she said to not worry about anything ( and I asked her directly about me being obnoxious). Maybe she's seeing a few folks getting out of line and seeing me reacting to bad posts( which I probably shouldn't do anyway). I'm mad at myself for letting things folks say to me, get to me (my Dr. warned about this.).

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-21-2008, 04:16 PM   #442
Joe McParland
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
I'm mad at myself for letting things folks say to me, get to me (my Dr. warned about this.).
This thread is 18 pages long so far; someone must have thrown in a Masakatsu Agatsu by now, no?

What good is a physically powerful man if he is so easily drawn into awkward situations and so driven to prove or to be seen as right? To such a person, everything is a fight! Every word uttered is an insult or accusation! Every glance is a threat! There is no fudoshin, let alone shoshin, mushin, or zanshin. A fighter who cannot see the value of correcting such a blatant martial deficiency in himself is truly an idiot!

So many people randomly encounter aikido and do not appreciate the treasure they've stumbled upon. To any such person: WAKE UP!!!

 
Old 12-21-2008, 04:47 PM   #443
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
I just don't see the advantage of using that word.
I'll weigh in in defense of proprioception as an appropriate and relevantly specific word in the conversation. It's not the synapses in the brain but rather the edges of physical perception, i.e. the nerve endings in our skin, or in the antennae of a cockroach (did you know they can feel the air moving ahead of your hand if you come up from behind them? I wish I could do that!), or at those neat dents in the exoskeleton of an insect. Indeed (like with those dents), proprioception is not just your nerves telling your brain that something's near or touching you; it's also your nerves telling your brain where your limbs are and whether you are balanced or not.
It is sometimes annoying when uncommon and very specific words are imported from an unfamiliar field of study (neuroethology, in this case, not a field that most of us read in every day), but often their very specificity is what makes them such valuable tools! Also, I find that learning new terms for a concept that I didn't know had a word of its own helps me find new ways to think about the concept.

I am not an expert
 
Old 12-21-2008, 06:19 PM   #444
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Joe McParland wrote: View Post
This thread is 18 pages long so far; someone must have thrown in a Masakatsu Agatsu by now, no?
Yep 3 or 4 pages ago. So, what's your thoughts on the evolvement of Aikido?

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-21-2008, 06:34 PM   #445
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Jeremy Morrison wrote: View Post
I'll weigh in in defense of ....
Yes but what are your ideas on evolving Aikido?

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-21-2008, 06:52 PM   #446
mathewjgano
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Wrong!
Yeah, I would agree, but if we're discussing external motivation sources, I think that would ensure a greater degree of effort. Still, a bit of a hyperbole, i agree.

Quote:
So how is [masakatsu agatsu] better?
Well from my perspective as a teacher it's better because it's an intrinsic approach toward motivation. Extrinsic motivation is a fine thing and is proven effective, but it doesn't apply to every situation and carries with it some pitfalls. In my experience, where competition is used as the primary means of motivation there is often a knee-jerk response mechanism in which the individual tends to compete where competition isn't appropriate. Ultimately I think this comes down to a matter of personal taste, I have no problem with a balance of the two (humans are cooperative animals also), but I personally prefer the non-competitive method as the primary source of motivation...and O Sensei seemed to also, per what I've read and been told.

Quote:
How do you know you're doing better? How do you know if your technique is martially effective? How do you know you're not practicing bad habits?
You can have bad habits in competition too though. Efficacy tendancies for me are a matter of specialization and generalization. Every martial art has its various emphases that they specialize in. To get a really good sense of how they interact with each other you have to cross-train and experience the different ways people move (the benefit of mixing up training partners in my opinion...something I didn't experience much of in my brief stint with two other arts).

Quote:
I've been in competitons too and I feel good that all my opponents were doing their best(most don't want to lose, humans are naturally competitive). I guarantee if records follows competitors, folks'll do the best they can do.
While I would say generally my opponants did their best, I would say it's more accurate that they tried their best to win and that that actually caused some of them to compromise their overall performance. It's a subtle shift in attention, and one which doesn't always make a difference, but my sense is that "winning" is ultimately an arbitrary goal when viewed next to simply doing your very best all the time. Personally, when I've focused on winning, I've performed worse than when I focused on doing my best.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 12-21-2008, 07:03 PM   #447
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Gene wrote:

Quote:
Ok, but why dissect my offer? Why not come up with your own ideas? Why aren't you saying, "Wow Gene, that's some pretty imaginative ideas, but here's my ideas..."?
I am happy to discuss your ideas. Please outline your concepts on how you feel aikido needs to evolve.

These days, within the spectrum of aikido, I am getting the most out of slow, more "Ki Society" oriented training and exercises than I am anything else.

That said, there certainly is a "range" of movement and dynamism that should be trained. To include sword and jo, which is very important.

Speaking of Sword and Jo. Proprioception is a very important concept when it comes to weapons. Being able to "touch" blades/bokken or jo's and "feel" where uke's center is and then respond to the slightest of movement is very important.

Frankly, I think this is a big part of the message the O'Sensei tried to impart. You train and train to the point that you fine tune your senses to the point that you respond to lighter and lighter touch, until there is no touch and you can get ahead of uke and actually turn the corner to proactiveness vice reactiveness...stopping an attack before it starts.

On a practical level, the understanding of proprioception and touch is very important. I find that the more I understand it and I develop a greater sensitivity, the better my BJJ becomes as I can get one step ahead of my opponent, which is where I want to be.

On sincerity, please understand that my comments are meant to be vvery sincere and not meant to be sarcastic in anyway. I would be concerned about health and age when undertaken an art, especially one that you want to test effectiveness which requires alot of altheticism and stress.

I am also sincere about getting together and working with you or anyone. I love training in martial arts, and love getting together with folks that are critically concerned and thinking about various paradigms....provided that you/they have an open mind and are training in a positive manner and not negative in approach.

 
Old 12-21-2008, 07:23 PM   #448
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Matthew wrote:

Quote:
You can have bad habits in competition too though. Efficacy tendancies for me are a matter of specialization and generalization. Every martial art has its various emphases that they specialize in. To get a really good sense of how they interact with each other you have to cross-train and experience the different ways people move (the benefit of mixing up training partners in my opinion...something I didn't experience much of in my brief stint with two other arts
Yea competition can be a double edged sword for sure. It becomes very apparent when you study judo, at least it did for me. I am certainly NOT proficient in martial arts from a Judo context and I am constantly reminded of the things I can't do in Judo as I work to develop my Judo game.

That said, what I have found is that within the constraints of the rules of judo, I am learning a great deal about how to attack cleanly and move very decisively.

In Judo ne waza you have to be very quick and decisive in order to win on the ground.

BJJ on the other hand, is pretty darn good at ne waza, but the method of competition rewards the ground game differently so you have a different timing and strategy vice judo.

I think competition forces you do develop some good things, you learn how to deal with timing, competitiveness, and non-compliance. For me, I have also gained an appreciation for how rules and paradigms impact your training and how easy it is to get myopic in your training.

Competition, just like belt testing forces you to improve and concentrate on weaknesses.

Alll good things I think.

I posted a few months back a video of a BJJ competition I did a few years ago where the guy beat me, but if you watch it from an Aikido standpoint, I was very successful and demonstrated a decent amount of martial competence by breaking away from the fight and standing while my opponent was on the ground.

I will have to find that link and post it again, as I think it was a decent example of how competition impacts your strategy.

 
Old 12-21-2008, 07:26 PM   #449
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Gene, I think my sense of Aikido evolution has more to do with applying the core principles of Aikido to new contexts; adding new science to understanding what has already been proven to work pretty well. The reason many of us feel the core of Aikido is sufficient is that those principles are based on many years of kinesthetic study...combat tested, etc. I know you would argue there has been a devolution of efficacy (I'd say some forms have evolved to lose martial effectivness, perhaps in favor of meditative effectiveness), but I believe the efficacy is still present in many forms of Aikido, so that is the Aikido I tend to speak in regards of.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 12-21-2008, 07:30 PM   #450
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Yep 3 or 4 pages ago. So, what's your thoughts on the evolvement of Aikido?
Why don't you just ask us, "Should a ghost's fart smell more like roses or tulips?"

You've invented something in your head that you call "aikido" and you've insisted to everyone that it must evolve.

I agree.

Whatever that thing is that you call "aikido" must evolve to match the founder's notion of aikido.

That is my thought about the evolution of aikido. Feel free to ask questions if you don't understand, and I will try to answer.

 

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