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Old 12-15-2008, 06:04 PM   #301
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Hello,

Interesting thread.

Something that seems to be missed is that aikido from a purely technical point of view is just another style of jujutsu. Every technique and every physical principle in aikido can be found in numerous schools of classical jujutsu, not just Daito ryu.

So the question is, what defines aikido?

Technique?

Pedagogy?

Philosophy?

Before you can debate the evolution of aikido I'd suggest you define what actually constitutes aikido. Without common ground to base this discussion on, you are debating apples and oranges.

Respectfully,

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
Hi Toby,

I agree.

It might be difficult to define and discuss, as you know. I think Erick took a pretty decent stab at it for sure.

Looking at the etiology of aikido, judo, and BJJ as arts I have some experience with look at them simply as methodologies on the same theme of course.

Each of the founders had a certain perspective or value he placed on aspects they thought were important to communicate to others.

Kano devised his methodology to concentrate on the aspects that he felt were important.

O'Sensei did the same.

Maeda, spread Judo/Jiu-Jistu throughout the world and in one area two guys Carlos and Helio Gracie developed and codified there on methodology.

I think all of them pretty much profess the whole mind, body, and spirit thing right? So at the core, are they really different and unique at all? What do they evolve to if they are already aligned to these things?

I mean evolutionary might be that we discover that through the study of these arts that we can reduce carbon emissions and stop global warming and that becomes the single compelling reason to practice, and then we may see another methodology that extracts those practices that address that evolutionary discovery. Extreme and ridicuouls I know, but that is what evolutionary is about. A fish learning to breath air and walk on land! Not figuring out that not only can you do the American Crawl to swim, but also the backstroke! That is a variation on the same theme of swimming!

I think simply what define and separates arts are people and their afinitity and identity to a certain group that calls itself "X".

I think this should also be one of the "big" or "great" discoveries that O'Sensei wanted us to learn. As another thread is discussing, the secret to Martial Arts is that there is no secret AND there are no differences. The similiarities we are so closely related that they are really the same and Unifying in nature.

The differences I believe are superficial, patches on the GI, Hakama, no Hakama, black belts, Iaido Obi....O'sensei's picture at the front or Kano's?

The more I study, the more I see that is the same...not different!

So, hard to say what the difference really is...other than cultural an d customary in nature.

I know we all want to feel special in what we do, but these arts in and of themselve ain't so special really!

 
Old 12-15-2008, 06:09 PM   #302
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
In my opinion, at the level you're discussing, aikido is it's practitioners.But where I stepped in this conversation was at the point where you mis-defined Revolution by omission of its many applicable meanings and then asserted it had no place in the art. So I suggested that you look deeper at the word revolution.....Woof-woof!
I'm sorry for the mis-understanding-I understand what you said, I just dis-agree with it.

I disagree that in the context of evolution of Aikido that "Aikido is it's practitioners". Aikido is it'sown entity. If no one practiced Aikido, it'd still be Aikido, still be as sound and effective as the day it was born. In fact, without 'practitioners' to devolve it, it might just evolve on it's own.

I disagree with your use of the term revolution- imo, it only means 3 things: 1.) political- overthrowing a incumbant regime. 2.) the action of a celestial body spinning on it's axis and/or going round in orbit or elliptical course 3.) a sudden, radical, or complete change. I just don't see Aikido doing any of the above( well maybe alittle spinning and orbiting) and if it's doing something else, maybe that's another term.

I disagree that Aikido is a product of Nature, per se. Imo, it's a product of a man who studied Nature, so it not perfect and has room for improvement ( evolving). Osensei spent the rest of his life evolving it and then, imo, left it to us to continue that.

I used the Kudzu because someone asked me for an example of something in Nature that has evolved superior, but emphasized that Natural evolution did not apply to the evolution of Aikido and was moot. AFA, what makes the Kudzu superior is the way it consumes other plants and has nothing to do with the way it got introduced into the United States or how edible it is.

And then, with your last statement about the next evolution, well that wouldn't be an evolution, as that has been the goal of Aikido since it's inception.

Folks like Shoji Nishio Sensei, who was a Uchidesi of Osensei and practiced it for many many years said that in order for Aikido to evolve, it must be martially effective and that I agree with. I may be new to Aikido, but I'm not new to MA nor Budo nor Zen nor Tao, etc. I have a pretty good grasp on concepts- physical, martial or otherwise (except those darn formulas). I'm pragmatic and believe no matter how complex, it should be able to be stated simply in a sentence. Pant, pant!!

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-15-2008, 06:35 PM   #303
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Sorry, too late, I already did( altho I had no intention to single you out or mention any names), as it's not clear, nor is it clear to me what it has to do with this thread.
Imo, that statement begs for an expoundment. If it read "the empty hand portion of martial arts", it'd be much more clear, as it's well known that martial arts are weapons arts, especially in Aikido.

These vids explain this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPfXkxF9C-E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH0-IyJPsyc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9PTMSwr1h0

Notice in the vids , he says that in order for Aikido to be developed( to evolve), it must maintain martial effectiveness. He's also saying that Aikido is devolving, because it's being practiced martially ineffective. So, how does one know if a technique is martially effective, if not by 'combat-like' competition? So, imo, Aikido techniques that come out as a result of 'combat-like' competiton would be an example of Aikido evolving. Speaking of that practicing with a wooden ken/jo was an evolution.
Well again, we'd have to agree on a criteria of what martially effective means before we could really have a meaningful discussion of this topic.

I have my opinions and criteria and it is multi-faceted.

As a soldier, I find the methodolgy of aikido to be a very, very poor methodology for teaching martial effectiveness for the current modern battlefield. As it relates directly to the physicality of application on the battlefield.

There are simply much better ways of training that are more direct that transfer core skills.

As a weapons based art aikido really is a waste of time. Yes, our heritage is based on weapons arts, but the practice we use are designed to teach the principles of aiki, not the actual use of these weapons. Weapons use is not a primary focus and we actually do it very poorly VERY POORLY!

So what part of martial effectiveness does aikido attempt to maintain really?

I actually have a hard time when someone like him says that in order to remain a martial art it must be practiced as we practice it with the sword.

IMM, if that is the case, then practice it correctly tactically, not some theorectical, principle focused practice.

In fact, sword based arts lost there martial relevancy quite a while ago I believe!

So, you can put lip stick on a pig, but you still have a pig! (Hmmm, where have I heard that lately).

What we need to do is make sure we have the same criteria for effectiveness before we start practice or discussion on this subject.

This does not mean that aikido is a waste of time and there is a reason I still practice it. Martial effectiveness on a physical nature is definitely NOT the most compelling reason directly.

I think shihan and instructors need to really spend time making sure their students completely understand this. I think words are cheap and thrown around too casually in the arts.

If you come to me and say you want to practice martially effectively...I might stand up, run at you, take you down and climb on top of you and start pounding on you from the mount.

So we really need to define what you really mean by that before we go much further as it can mean different things to different people.

Last edited by Kevin Leavitt : 12-15-2008 at 06:36 PM. Reason: left out keyword

 
Old 12-15-2008, 06:48 PM   #304
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Clarence wrote:

Quote:
Folks like Shoji Nishio Sensei, who was a Uchidesi of Osensei and practiced it for many many years said that in order for Aikido to evolve, it must be martially effective and that I agree with. I may be new to Aikido, but I'm not new to MA nor Budo nor Zen nor Tao, etc.
You are more than certainly entitled to your opinions. However, as you state, you are new to aikido. So your asumptions about aikido and where it has been and where it is going is based on what?

Limited experience? Assumptions? You tube?

Or interpersonal discussions with others in the art that have been in it for a while? Shihan? Sensei's?

Experiences with other schools, sects, segments?

Do you really feel qualified to form the opinions concerning your experiences with aikido?

It would really help me to understand your position if you would spell out your criteria for martial efffectiveness and how that relates to aikido.

On another topic. Are you sure you are using the term Evolve correctly?

Kudzu I don't believe has evolved. It found environmental conditions perfect for spreading in the southeast U.S. No change necessary for the Kudzu...it simply went on being Kudzu!

Evovle would imply that kudzu developed a fur coat that allowed it to live in Canada.

A revolution in respect to kudzu would be finding out that it was an alternative source to oil that we could tap into that would shift the economic market away from oil.

 
Old 12-15-2008, 07:18 PM   #305
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Clarence,With all due respect, let me ask you -- has anyone's communications with you in this thread led you to change any of your views? Is your intent to have the last word? That's becoming my impression, sadly.
Please, call me Gene. Now, speaking of respect, would it be disrepsectful if I ignore you? Didn't you post here and ask me a question for an answer? I assure, my intent is not to have that last word. I thought this was a place for us to sit around and discuss ideas. I'm sorry if you've become tired and negative (to think ill of me so). Relax and get some rest and don't let this trouble you. Fact is, if someone actually explained this evolution to me that'd be an improvemnt on my own thinking of this,I WOULD change my mind, but I really doubt that happening. The more I research I do on this, the more most all the "old folks" agree that the evolution of Aikdio is to make it more martially effectve.

Quote:
David Henderson wrote:
Also, and again with all due respect, your various uses of the word "evolution" tend, in my view, to support the idea that you really don't have much background with the concept of "evolution." I'm not bragging when I say that I do -- at least enough to know that some of the poster's whose views you've rejected know more about the concept than your posts suggest that you do.
And that is your opinion and you have every right to it, I just disagree with it. I've only had one use and definition of evolution- adapting to an improvement to survive.

Quote:
David Henderson wrote:
I like your discussion in one of these last posts about evolution in terms of making technique better. That's the goal of training for most if not all of us. You can call it "evolution" if you want. But calling it that doesn't contribute more to my understanding of your point that we should be working to surpass our teachers in our practices. And your simple underlying observation stands on its own without the ideological baggage your understanding of evolution seems to carry with it.
Wow, that was a mouthfull. I'm sorry you can't undersatnd the concept of taking something farther than your teacher andf I'dhave toask about that "underlying baggage" you're talking about. That concerns me.

Quote:
Daivd Henderson wrote:
In your other statements in this thread, you presuppose "evolution" as a fundamental principle of how everything changes "in nature."
But it's true! I didn't make it up. Folks much smarter than me dicovered that. Don't kill the messenger.

Quote:
David Henderson wrote:
The bottom line, for me, is I think you conflate "evoultion" with a belief in progress, particularly with the idea of the United States as a progressive society. You are welcome to that belief, even if I find it parochial. But it's just that --a belief drapped in pseudo-scientific clothing.
Now David, don't think you're gonna scare me with those fancy words. I'd suggest looking up the term evolution (like I did), the whole concept is about improvement. AFA the statement about the US( that an example of a paradigm shift is how the US is shifting from a Democratic -Republic to Socialism), I believe it was an example of a pardigm shift (which was being improperly used). Now, it's very interesting that you find it " adhering to a religious doctrine". I won't even touch the last part.

Quote:
Daivd henderson wrote:
When you make broad statements like "I reread the entire thread and there is nothing evolutionary or revolutionary in it," and, at the same time, you've failed to show that you genuinely understand what the concept really means, it makes it hard for me as an individual reader to get through my frustration at the way you choose to communicate and I fear I may be missing your other points.
Well, that is exactly what's happening here, so let me clear this up- quite simply, my definiiton of evolution is "adapting to improve to survive". Revolutionary is "a radical or sudden change" implying something that was not thought of before. If you can find that in this thread, please point it out, 'cause I couldn't find it (which is why I said that).

Quote:
David Henderson wrote:
Same as when you call O'Sensei a rich man and a hypocrite. If that's your point of view, fine, but (A) I think you meant to use it to upset people because you felt on the defensive, and (b) your post suggests an odd understanding of his biolography and life. In this site we are spoiled by easy access to Professor Goldsbury's articles on Ueshiba's life. You might find they add detail to what you already know.
Ok, then I'll provide links to the articles I read that lead me to my real opinion of a man and his place in life. Btw, here they are:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=53

http://aikidoonline.com/Archives/200...500_dosh1.html

According to those, he was born into a wealthy family and grew up with another wealthy family, then went to be Lord in Northern Japan and then was the personal aid to one of the the richest persons/orgs in Japan and then went on to open several dojos in Tokyo. Anyone who has a dojo can tell you how much money it takes to obtain and maintain that, as well a profitable merchant business. So yes, when I learn that a man who has money, wealth, fame, power and many buildings tell me that I don't need them, imo,he's being hypocritical. Sorry if that offends you, but I call it the way I see it. Maybe you have a problem with someone else being blunt, funny how you call that something else (negative).

Quote:
David Henderson wrote:
Bottom line, my friend, I'd much prefer to engage in an exchange of ideas with you in which neither of us pretend we know everything than in a series of debating posts that seem to have little purpose but to establish that you are always right.Please forgive my bluntness. It is, whether well done or not, a plea for more open minded communication.Sincerely,DH
Again, I'm sorry you see it so negative, but that's not my intention. AFA I'm concerned, I've been communicating quite openly, but I've feel I've run into alot of closed minds. Tell ya what, I've forgive your bluntness if you'll forgive mine. If anyone can show me the evolution of Aikido ( the simple adapting to improving to survive), I'm wide open to it.

Last edited by GeneC : 12-15-2008 at 07:24 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-15-2008, 07:26 PM   #306
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
I'm sorry for the mis-understanding-I understand what you said, I just dis-agree with it.
Thanks for finally coming clean.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 12-15-2008 at 07:40 PM.

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Old 12-15-2008, 07:43 PM   #307
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
You are more than certainly entitled to your opinions. However.....,
It would really help me to understand your position if you would spell out your criteria for martial efffectiveness and how that relates to aikido.
Ok, simply, (like Bruce Lee and Shoji Sensei, et al said) improve a technique (or strategy) that make it more martially effective. Like you said, I haven't been in Aikido long enough ( so, is that how you judge folks, by how long they been doing this?) to know exactly what that is (but I'll train every day with that in mind), but in my limited experience it'd be things like no technique that'd put you directly in harms way (like a punch or kick or takedown, etc); Always lead with your dominant side; intercept an attack with an attack, rather than block, then counter; rather than go in circles, go in staight lines exclusively, etc. Some folks here have alot more experience in Aikdido and I thought that that was the purpose of this thread- to talk about it.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Evovle would imply that kudzu developed a fur coat that allowed it to live in Canada.
Well, there ya go.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
A revolution in respect to kudzu would be finding out that it was an alternative source to oil that we could tap into that would shift the economic market away from oil.
Exactly, or it's the most perfect food plant and solves hunger in the world.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-15-2008, 09:03 PM   #308
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Buck wrote:

As you know I don't necessarily see things the same way on BJJ/AIKIDO/MMA was you do. Won't rehash that here. However, if you do indeed believe that the distinct difference betweeen aikido and BJJ is based on the allowing or disallowing of harm...

well then I'd say there are alot of hippocritical folks practicing aikido out there as I have learned more how to not hurt folks (In real life, not in the dojo) in BJJ than in aikido. So I'd say in that respect then BJJ might be more authentic or honest.

So you have to be careful about the categorical conclusions you draw based on your paradigm about what something is and what it is not!

Don't have much time right now, but will try to discuss more later!

One I don't think martial arts or practices can be all things to all persons. I think this is salient to the conversation of evolution as at it's core O'Sensei was pretty clear on what he codified as the core principles and values of the art.

In that respect, we are free to interepret and explore in our practice however we want. We may bring in a BJJ instructor for a seminar, or a DRAJ instructor, or a Tai Chi instructor. this does not mean we are evolving, but simply looking at the study in a different way to help us interpret and improve our understanding of the Core Princpals. Evolution to me implies that we are changing the core of our practice, that is values, philosophies, measures.

Which ones would you propose need to be changed if any?

Is it possible to learn aikido principles solely from a BJJ practice? I think you can. At what point to you cross the line and say you are no longer practicing aikido, but BJJ?

Actually BJJ and Judo are a better analogy because they are so close in practice. How do you know when you have crossed the line in practice?

The answer I think is when the practitioner forms an affinity with a particular practice and say "I do Aikido".

But back to all things to all people. I think instructors need to stay focused on the core of their practice and not be concerned with trends and opinions. I think if you are trained and mentored successfully and properly in your chosen art, then it is an easy thing to do. I think when you are not sure of yourself, your practice, and don't really know what it is that you are doing, then you tend to want to change things at the core.

That is not to say that we should shut our eyes things external to our practice and that we should not be open to adopting new training methodologies and experimentation...I think that is very important. However, is it evolution or simply a re-interpretation?
yea, I personally don't look at martial arts by way of evolution. It then goes to reason that I don't think one is more evolved then the over the other. In my post I said that all arts share the same principles/ physics. The rub is in, the when, where and how, the physics are applied. The difference of each art is the philosophy technical, spiritual, group, etc.

I wanted to point out that it is the perspective of evolution that leads us to that conclusion of one art being better then another, the idea of possible extinction/survival, and to seek out other arts to intergrate into, art that have the same principles. The perspective of evolution than is always fighting for survival and avoid dying-out, and having a requirement that the art must evolved. From there we come back to evaluating an art over others, sorting out which is evolved and which isn't; all the arts are really no different form each other as they share the same principles/physics. It is just how they are done etc.

So, then in this way there is no line to cross, the principles are the same. What is being explored is the physics. I think it is the individual intelligence, experience etc. that really should be looked at. Be it a violin string or banjo string, or harp string, vocal chords, or a rubber string strung tight between two fingers, all these strings work the same. They all give off the same sound of a vibration when hit ( one doesn't sound like a trumpet and the other like an ticking clock) having being made of differing materials it is the musician that makes these strings beautiful to listen to or unbearable eventhough each person hears the sound differently.

You mention a core, language then from another art, to discribe a use of physics. But that so called core is present in all arts. Some people recognize it in their art, as other don't recognize it present in their own art (considering it isn't a sucky made up art). Then there are those who seek the core else where because they don't see it in their own art, or they can't fill in the missing parts and need to be given it from another perspective. Therefore, I agree it is interpretation, and add the depth of interpretation as well. And to what degree does an art have "core." And the skill that come out understanding and applying the "core"- I term as physics.

Per our other past discussions, just not to sound wishy-washy, I still take the stand that Aikido is a complete art in the sense it has all the "core" info, nothing is left out. What is incomplete or lacking ( i guess you can add unevolved) is the individual, and not the art.

Last edited by Buck : 12-15-2008 at 09:07 PM.
 
Old 12-15-2008, 09:10 PM   #309
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

How long you have been studying aikido matters only in realitive postion of experience as it relates to the topic of aikido, has nothing to do with "mine is bigger than yours" or "I am smarter than you".

It is one thing to read about brain surgery on the internet and discuss it, it is another thing to have actually done it for a few years. It is nice to know the experience base of the person you are talking with and where they are getting their information or from what they are forming their opinions from...that is all.

Thanks for taking the time to list some things you consider important.

Here is the catch though. If you concentrate on simply being effective in those areas, you might practice runnning away as a primary defense as it is a technique that allows you to stay out of harms way. So running fast and far might be a worthwhile martial practice.

I think the problem is we form an idea about what situations we might be in and that we indeed have choices that we may or may not have. For example, avoiding punches. Well that one is easy, you simply keep enough distance from you and your opponent (out of punching range). What if you can't?

Well now you are in punching range and he is launching effective bombs on you..what do you do? Join the fetal fight club? Take a bunch of punches then run? Go to the clinch?

If this is our primary concern in aikido, that is, to be effective in these types of situations, I'd say aikido is fairly inefficient to help you be successful in this situation.

Same with avoiding knifes, guns, rear chokes, and etc, etc.

Are these the reasons you feel aikido should evolve because it is not able to effectively answer the mail in these areas as good as some other practices?

 
Old 12-15-2008, 09:20 PM   #310
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Buck wrote:

Quote:
Per our other past discussions, just not to sound wishy-washy, I still take the stand that Aikido is a complete art in the sense it has all the "core" info, nothing is left out. What is incomplete or lacking ( i guess you can add unevolved) is the individual, and not the art.
I'd might say it has the potential to be complete in respect to the study of the goals of aikido.

I think the experience of "Completeness" is somewhat individual.

For me to understand Ai Ki, has required a fair amount of study outside of the primary art of aikido in BJJ and Judo, as well as some time spent doing Yoga and working with other Aiki related practices.

This is no hit on aikido. I think it is more about finding instructors and experiences that help you learn.

If aikido was "complete" in every regard then I would not have gotten my ass handed to me by a MMAer a few years back with 4 months of martial arts experience.

No martial art is complete in reality.

I think aikido is complete in the sense that it has the Potential to teach aiki very well given the standard practices within the art as generally practiced.

 
Old 12-15-2008, 10:02 PM   #311
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Clarence wrote:
It would really help me to understand your position if you would spell out your criteria for martial efffectiveness and how that relates to aikido.
Hey Kevin,

Since Clarence brought up the founder of our Aikido Shoji Nishio Shihan and I have been practicing it for about 20 years now I'll take a stab (tsuki ) at this.

Nishio Shihan believed that in order for Aikido to remain relevent as a Martial Art it must be technically effective against other Martial Arts or it would eventually die out as a Budo.

Martial Effectiveness is a simple criteria really IMO... Can a skilled Aikidoka using the principles of Aikido as expressed by Shoji Nishio Shihan defend themselves sucessfully against another experianced Martial Artist?

The answer to that question is yes more often than not.

As I have mentioned on another thread ones Tai-Jutsu vastly improves if one incorporates Weapons work into thier practice. I was skeptical of this when I started since there were'nt too many armed Samurai running around Malibu but after years of cross training with Martial Artists from a host of different disciplines all I can say is You can tell the differance between an Aikidoka who practices with weapons from one who does not as soon as you step on the mat in most cases... just by the way they carry themselves... thier posture.... and the ease in which they enter/irimi during randori or the execution of technique.

In my experiance Aikido has more to fear from the passing on of bad ideals and qwack philosophy which dilute the practice of Aikido as they are passed on. We must somehow cease the proliferation of Pony Tailed Aiki-Bunnies who cannot walk the way they talk. I am sure that this form of Aikido will die out as a Martial Art over time and will perhaps evolve into some form of rigorous yoga with a partner.

There are branches on the Aikido Tree who do strive to be a complete Budo and evolve and I would like to hope that I am a part of that continued legacy there are others whose sword cuts true and we can only hope they pass on thier passion to a new generation.

William Hazen
 
Old 12-15-2008, 10:39 PM   #312
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
If no one practiced Aikido, it'd still be Aikido, still be as sound and effective as the day it was born. In fact, without 'practitioners' to devolve it, it might just evolve on it's own.
You think it can evolve on its own...without people? How could it possibly do that?

Quote:
I disagree with your use of the term revolution- imo, it only means 3 things: ... 3.) a sudden, radical, or complete change. I just don't see Aikido doing any of the above( well maybe alittle spinning and orbiting) and if it's doing something else, maybe that's another term.
I appologize if I'm being pedantic, but I think "sudden change" is a very relative phrase (and thus open to some interpretation).

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I disagree that Aikido is a product of Nature, per se. Imo, it's a product of a man who studied Nature, so it not perfect and has room for improvement ( evolving).
I don't subscribe to the notion that "improvement" is a necessary componant of evolution:
"any process of formation or growth; development: the evolution of a language; the evolution of the airplane," (Dicitonary.com).
My view is that evolution essentially denotes change, and whether or not you can say something is an improvement depends largely upon interpretation and context.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 12-15-2008, 10:52 PM   #313
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
In my experience Aikido has more to fear from the passing on of bad ideals and qwack philosophy which dilute the practice of Aikido as they are passed on. We must somehow cease the proliferation of Pony Tailed Aiki-Bunnies who cannot walk the way they talk. I am sure that this form of Aikido will die out as a Martial Art over time and will perhaps evolve into some form of rigorous yoga with a partner.
Hey now, no knocking the rigourous yoga - that stuff's hard! I would disagree that different ideals, styles and philosophies dilute the practise of aikido. Rather, I would argue the opposite: the 'pony-tailed aiki-bunnies' (my wife has a pony tail; what's your point?) can learn their way, you can learn yours, and I can learn mine, and I don't see how any of us is diminished. Someone practising a different aikido from mine doesn't hurt my aikido - there is almost always something I can learn from them. So any person's aikido is surely richer for there being a vast variety of styles, philosophies, and ideas out there to inform their experience.

I am not an expert
 
Old 12-15-2008, 11:09 PM   #314
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Jeremy Morrison wrote: View Post
Hey now, no knocking the rigourous yoga - that stuff's hard! I would disagree that different ideals, styles and philosophies dilute the practise of aikido. Rather, I would argue the opposite: the 'pony-tailed aiki-bunnies' (my wife has a pony tail; what's your point?) can learn their way, you can learn yours, and I can learn mine, and I don't see how any of us is diminished. Someone practising a different aikido from mine doesn't hurt my aikido - there is almost always something I can learn from them. So any person's aikido is surely richer for there being a vast variety of styles, philosophies, and ideas out there to inform their experience.
With all due respect I completely agree however I am not sure if Aikido can survive without it being rooted in Martial Technique. I am not against pony tailed Aiki-Bunnys at all as long as they can use what they have learned to actually protect themselves. This (I would have to also agree) is the main criticism of Aikido's "effectiveness" as a Budo.

Perhaps O'Sensei meant for Aikido to evolve out of it's Martial Roots into something "non-violent" I don't think so and I know Shoji Nishio did not feel that way either.

William Hazen
 
Old 12-16-2008, 01:14 AM   #315
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
He's also saying that Aikido is devolving, because it's being practiced martially ineffective.
I do not think so. Aikido is a martial art, because (again, my point of view) its goal is to kill an opponent in blink of an eye. The idea "not to hurt" means "first, to intimidate" as a peaceful solution to a conflict.

'Act of Killing' is a scary phrase, and it is not used to encourage people to practice martial art today. In my opinion, it doesn't make any sense to talk about improving aikido (an evolution), because I do belive that by using every aikido technique one is able to kill their opponent. Aikidokas without that feeling do not practice martial art at all.
 
Old 12-16-2008, 07:31 AM   #316
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Ah, Gene, QED
 
Old 12-16-2008, 07:33 AM   #317
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
... that is what evolutionary is about. A fish learning to breath air and walk on land! Not figuring out that not only can you do the American Crawl to swim, but also the backstroke! That is a variation on the same theme of swimming!

I think simply what define and separates arts are people and their afinitity and identity to a certain group that calls itself "X".
OOOoooh!!. Big Man -- with your flashy new-fangled strokes, and "Oh, "speed is everything!" nonsense. There is NOTHING -- I tell you -- NOTHING with the proven pedigree and sublime artistry of the venerated dog-paddle. The rest is the Devil's work. A pox on you, sir.


Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 12-16-2008, 07:42 AM   #318
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
I used the Kudzu because someone asked me for an example of something in Nature that has evolved superior, but emphasized that Natural evolution did not apply to the evolution of Aikido and was moot. AFA, what makes the Kudzu superior is the way it consumes other plants and has nothing to do with the way it got introduced into the United States or how edible it is.
But the elements of "superiority" you perceive in kudzu are not directly products of its evolution. Where it evolved it has constraints that make it grow not nearly so fast, and things that naturally know to eat it about as fast as it grows. Those elements are not evident where it evolved. Here is it is pest ( albeit edible, but the native fauna (deer, mainly) don't know to eat it (though they can be taught in the case of cattle). The result you point out comes from the fact of the transplantation -- not any further evolution.

Maybe that is how some people see Aikido, I don't know: "We are Aikido; we will envelop and consume you." I am sure we have a Borg cube around here -- somewhere ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 12-16-2008, 08:29 AM   #319
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Maybe that is how some people see Aikido, I don't know: "We are Aikido; we will envelop and consume you." I am sure we have a Borg cube around here -- somewhere ...
Resistance (pun intended) is futile?

 
Old 12-16-2008, 08:36 AM   #320
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Joe McParland wrote: View Post
Cool, Clarence. I'll wish you luck in finding, creating, and spreading whatever is your aikido. Whether you succeed or fail, you've only got this time to find out

There may be many reasons why some do not promote (and sometimes actively oppose!) this aspect, but two biggies I find are these:

(1) Those who believe there is something to be preserved and transmitted purely---the high priests, so to speak

(2) Those who are trying to protect their territories, trademarks, and revenue streams---the merchants.

[I suppose there are also (3) those who would protect their egos, which infuse the other two...]

So, who's to tell you that you're wrong? Do what's right for you. When, given all of your circumstances, you do what is right for you and move forward, everything---the whole universe---evolves.
Well thanks Joe, I really apreciate the encouraging words. You are absolutely right.
I just happen to believe that it's every Aikidoka's responsibility to try and take Aikido farther than their Senseis did. To me, that'd be the evolution of Aikido.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-16-2008, 08:53 AM   #321
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
But the elements of "superiority" you perceive in kudzu are not directly products of its evolution. ...
How do you know that's that case, for sure? I believe it is. Btw, it's been in Florida (where I's born and raised) for over 100 yrs and was originally used as a foraging plant for livestock. Those folks at Uof F (Gators) do one good thing (Gatorade), but then bungle several others (Kudzu, love bugs, NCAA Championship, etc).

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-16-2008, 09:32 AM   #322
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Hey Kevin,Since Clarence brought up the founder of our Aikido Shoji Nishio Shihan and I have been practicing it for about 20 years now I'll take a stab (tsuki ) at this.William Hazen
Yes, thankyou, you're affirming what I'm saying, which is for Aikido to evolve (you even said it yourself), it must remain Martially effective, which means it must be a viable MA with/against weapons.
Nishio Sensei believed 99% of Aikidoka was practicing Aikido wrong. Do you believe that? Also, did he advocate competition?
I see competition as Aikido evolving.
Here's a video I saw over on another thread...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGZkWQEHOTQ

... where the Sensei reacts to a knife being tsuki'ed at him, by turning his back to the assailant! Now, I'm no expert, but I know I wouldn't turn my back on a knife.
I'm a Safety Officer for the IDPA (Intl Defensive Pistol Assoc.) and we do FoF (force on force) practice(Concealed carry defensive pistol evolved) by using those soft pellet, pellet guns and rubber knives with chalk.

In our 'knife fights', anywhere they mark a chalk mark on you , you're cut. So we practice with the goal of not getting any chalk marks on us and I can tell you, it's VERY difficult. Almost impossible( which is why, we've discovered, by actual practice, that a knife can get to you from 21ft, before you can get your gun out) and requires INSTANT reaction ( almost anticipatory) and imo, reaching for/towards/around/in the vacinity of the knife is a no no. First priority is to get away from the knife, get some distance between the two of you and then assess the situation (like drawing your gun, or picking up a weapon). We've found that even if you manage to grab their wrist (which most times an attempted grab almost always grabbed the knife or slid off onto the knife or at least got your hand cut!), they were able to rotate their hand and cut most all tendons in the wrist/arm, incapacitatiing that hand/arm. Then, as soon as they get their hand free, they're already "entered", so they can just go for the Jugulars. No knife wielder I know of will thrust and hold it there for you to grab, they'll come in doing the 8 directional cut, which is how it should be practiced, imo.

Btw, the 'gun fights' revealed interesting results. Most gunfights were like you see on Cops or Amazing Videos, etc , where both are running around madly flailing their guns, shooting blindly, wildly, almost behind them, not aiming at all. That's how folks manage to shoot dozens of rounds and noone gets hit. Now, the one who, like the real wild West, takes a step to the side ( to get out off the line of fire) takes aim and then shoots almost always gets a incapacitating hit (two to in the torso and one in the head or better yet, to the cranium 'til they drop).

Last edited by GeneC : 12-16-2008 at 09:43 AM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-16-2008, 10:03 AM   #323
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
yea, I personally don't look at martial arts by way of evolution. It then goes to reason that I don't think one is more evolved then the over the other. In my post I said that all arts share the same principles/ physics.
I have to disagree, MA is no different than anything else in this Universe (and everything is evolving or devolving, but nothing remains unchanged), whether we can see it or not. Some MA advocate blocking an attack and then countering, while more evolved MA say to intercept an attack with an attack, clearly more evolved( and superior) than the other. Some MA advocate immediately grabbing at a knife, while others say to get away from it and assess, clearly MA evolving.

Last edited by GeneC : 12-16-2008 at 10:05 AM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-16-2008, 10:41 AM   #324
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Yes, thankyou, you're affirming what I'm saying, which is for Aikido to evolve (you even said it yourself), it must remain Martially effective, which means it must be a viable MA with/against weapons.
Nishio Sensei believed 99% of Aikidoka was practicing Aikido wrong. Do you believe that? Also, did he advocate competition? I see competition as Aikido evolving.
I don't think he said he saw everyone else's Aikido as "wrong" just not martially effective and what he meant was most of the basic Hombu/Iwama methods of executing certain techniques left you wide open to getting your butt handed to you starting with Irimi. After a few years of practice I saw why he incorporated the sword. Everything is different and it seems to be much better when we follow the practice Philosophy of "Aikido is the Sword" Just start with the basic stance 'The stance of no stance" and hand position which in ours is palm up not palm down.

I don't think we'll evolve to competition it's too dangerous for many different reasons. However Nishio Shihan did feel that if you were going to step on the mat to practice you did it with a "sincere" heart and practiced as hard as you could.

"Sincere Heart through Austure Practice"

Are you in Law Enforcement Clarence?

William Hazen
 
Old 12-16-2008, 12:47 PM   #325
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

I'm home sick and doped up, so please forgive any gibberish that may follow .
Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
...everything is evolving or devolving...but nothing remains unchanged.
"From a scientific perspective, devolution does not exist," (citation in wikipedia). As for how things change and how beneficial it is, it depends entirely upon context.
That said, like you I would prefer Aikido remain mechanically powerful; physically effective "against" (for lack of a better word) all approaches. I don't think it's necessarily a step backward when people ignore the martial base from which this very idealistic art came from though. I think "energy play" can facilitate martial awareness, though i agree it's dangerous when people think they're more powerful than they are. I've seen plenty of fighters get surprised and lucky they didn't get more hurt.
When it comes to martial effectiveness i personally consider coordination to be paramount. I don't just mean manual dexterity, but include the ability to perceive as well as the ability to comprehend those perceptions. It takes mental and physical coordination to track the whole body of your attacker at the same time, let alone to track the context surrounding it (or the subtext motivating it), and then to deal with it all effectively. If we're going to talk about martial effectiveness, that's where I think we need to begin. To me, that general idea encompasses all the particulars. When learning to use a weapon you're really learning coordination with it, regardless of whether or not it's man-made or nature-made (fisticuffs are a nature-made weapons ). When learning aikido we're learning to coordinate every bit of ourselves and our environment into the equation, so that a small 85lbs-when-wet person can deal with people who are bigger and already carry a naturally greater inertia behind all their movements.
Anyhow, more or less off the top of my head, there's my layman's two bits for ya.
Take care,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 12-16-2008 at 12:54 PM.

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