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Old 12-14-2008, 09:44 PM   #276
GeneC
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Nope, I mean changing the japanese cultural trappings for american ones will only affect the external aspects of the art, not the art itself. Evolution needs to happen in the core (like in living things at DNA level) not in the surface
So what's wrong with that? These are Americans teaching Americans, right? Imo, it now Americn Aikido and while still acknowledging it roots, imo, it should be all American and it still can evolve. Btw the DNA evolution, different concept.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
Then judo's ground grappling got stagnated, striking ended in kata only practise and the Seiryoku Zenyo-Jita Kyoei is mostly forgotten.
But the Olympics didn't do that, the very nature of Ju-do did. Judo evolved.

Quote:
Denmetrio Cereijo wrote:
Sorry, I remember the other UFC, the almost no rules, no time limits, barecknuckle fights. The one where Royce owned everybody.Today is a heavily regulated sport, way safer and friendly for the practitioner.
Nope that was later on in UFC. That's what I was saying, it has evolved into a major sport.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
Well, imho aikido is a MA. However it has evolved in some (for some a lot, for others not) places, due the 60's - 70's social environment, and became a different thing.
Well, believe it or not, someone in this thread said that MA was for when one lost their weapon! The very concept of martial = weapon. Aikido is directly a sword MA.
AFA the 60's- 70's thing, in our civilized world, evolving usually means to become more civil, but one thing I remember, an evolvement , that I use daily, from the 70's, is the bio-rythm. I've found I can calm down and relax ALOT faster with it, so it is an evolvement.

Imo, for a MA to evolve, it simply needs to be improved in some small way that increases it's effectiveness and/or ensures it's survival.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-14-2008, 10:24 PM   #277
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Well, believe it or not, someone in this thread said that MA was for when one lost their weapon! The very concept of martial = weapon. Aikido is directly a sword MA.
I am sorry. By saying "On a battle field people use martial arts in case they lose a weapon, so that they can retrieve their weapon and be able to continue the fight." I didn't play any words' game - so, please do not use my clear statement to form a false conclusion. In that context "martial arts" means an empty hand fighting skill (ju-jitsu, daito-ryu, ..).
 
Old 12-14-2008, 10:40 PM   #278
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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But I am, my man, I am.
Cool, Clarence. I'll wish you luck in finding, creating, and spreading whatever is your aikido. Whether you succeed or fail, you've only got this time to find out

What I've found nice in the American tradition is that there really aren't too many groups who will actively shun you for not seeing things their way. There are still ways to train in aikido proper (particularly if you are not looking for rank and recognition from within their organizations), there are other martial arts to learn that add perspective to your own art, and there are groups with whom you can train who will welcome what you bring to the table.

I think one of the greatest aspects of traditional martial arts training is that you're learning to stand on your own, both physically and mentally. There may be many reasons why some do not promote (and sometimes actively oppose!) this aspect, but two biggies I find are these:

(1) Those who believe there is something to be preserved and transmitted purely---the high priests, so to speak

(2) Those who are trying to protect their territories, trademarks, and revenue streams---the merchants.

[I suppose there are also (3) those who would protect their egos, which infuse the other two...]

I don't know if there has been anything like a pure mind-to-mind transmission of O-Sensei's understanding, let alone physical skill. After all, look at all of the first and second generation students who founded their own independent organizations.

So, who's to tell you that you're wrong? Do what's right for you. When, given all of your circumstances, you do what is right for you and move forward, everything---the whole universe---evolves.

Last edited by Joe McParland : 12-14-2008 at 10:43 PM. Reason: afterthought

 
Old 12-14-2008, 11:17 PM   #279
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Semantics maybe, but I don't see what I would do as evolutionary as we are not changing the core measures and principles of aikido.

good discussion.
As I said before I don't think principles (physics etc. used/ as you put it core...) of Aikido apply to evolution. Just as light doesn't apply to evolution. I think in your case you are using the same physics etc. as Aikido. Where it be BJJ, or Tai chi. The difference is in application. So essentially you are just relearning what you already know from a different teaching model or package. There may be less stress here or more stress there, on this or that all within the limitations of physics. What differs among all these arts is the philosophy and application.

But I can see where a person may say, BJJ is on the evolutionary scale below Aikido. Why, because Aikido attempts in philosophy to something very difficult, and that is to not do harm like BJJ is allowed. We might say MMA is even below BJJ, I don't have to explain that. We can also say Aikido has not evolved because it doesn't update's itself to the modern world where MMA fighters are plenty. And so on.

I guess iamb, what is evolved or evolving or needs to evolve is based on what people are looking for. Like you said there is an unknown to how you would evolve the core stuff. I think many people also have a tough time with that. this is because we all are looking in the martial arts that isn't universal to all. But, instead unique to each person training, and the end the reach. If we look a person to see if any evolution has taken place- as a result of what ever the art they take- putting them on the evolution chart. We do this so we can see what took place in regard to the variables, speciations etc. I think it would be very interesting to know.

I would think it could be done is a very short time in any martial artist to see things happening as a result of the evolution process. Guys like you, Kevin, would be a great obervation on martial arts speciation- fusing in so many different arts together. You might be a new species, an Ominous preplexus. Or simply just using a combo tool you feel you need to solve the same problem so many of us who train in the arts are also trying to solve. With that said the following comes to mind, sliced bread, building a better mouse trap, reinventing the wheel, or evolving to a higher state of mind-snobbery . In the world of evolution someone comes out on top (includes a high population), then its ends up the same way of all over populated species. I prefer the String theory, it has a happier ending. Yea, it is a good discussion.

Last edited by Buck : 12-14-2008 at 11:31 PM.
 
Old 12-15-2008, 05:57 AM   #280
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

I guess it is our approach to solving a problem we all as martial arts try to answer. I think we all understand that at some level. Some feel their methods and approach to the problem are evolved, or maybe we all think that way. But, with evolution there is extinction . Here is where I think people really get concerned. No one wants their art to die, they want to increase their own kind competing with others for territory etc. when this happen their numbers increase and increase. this is something they want, but in the back of their minds they feel the cold hand of extinction creeping up. In this case they seek out other arts etc. to survive to meet the needs of staying alive.
 
Old 12-15-2008, 08:52 AM   #281
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Clarence,

With all due respect, let me ask you -- has anyone's communications with you in this thread led you to change any of your views? Is your intent to have the last word? That's becoming my impression, sadly.

Also, and again with all due respect, your various uses of the word "evolution" tend, in my view, to support the idea that you really don't have much background with the concept of "evolution." I'm not bragging when I say that I do -- at least enough to know that some of the poster's whose views you've rejected know more about the concept than your posts suggest that you do.

I like your discussion in one of these last posts about evolution in terms of making technique better. That's the goal of training for most if not all of us. You can call it "evolution" if you want. But calling it that doesn't contribute more to my understanding of your point that we should be working to surpass our teachers in our practices. And your simple underlying observation stands on its own without the ideological baggage your understanding of evolution seems to carry with it.

In your other statements in this thread, you presuppose "evolution" as a fundamental principle of how everything changes "in nature."

The bottom line, for me, is I think you conflate "evoultion" with a belief in progress, particularly with the idea of the United States as a progressive society. You are welcome to that belief, even if I find it parochial. But it's just that --a belief drapped in pseudo-scientific clothing.

When you make broad statements like "I reread the entire thread and there is nothing evolutionary or revolutionary in it," and, at the same time, you've failed to show that you genuinely understand what the concept really means, it makes it hard for me as an individual reader to get through my frustration at the way you choose to communicate and I fear I may be missing your other points.

Same as when you call O'Sensei a rich man and a hypocrite. If that's your point of view, fine, but (A) I think you meant to use it to upset people because you felt on the defensive, and (b) your post suggests an odd understanding of his biolography and life. In this site we are spoiled by easy access to Professor Goldsbury's articles on Ueshiba's life. You might find they add detail to what you already know.

Bottom line, my friend, I'd much prefer to engage in an exchange of ideas with you in which neither of us pretend we know everything than in a series of debating posts that seem to have little purpose but to establish that you are always right.

Please forgive my bluntness. It is, whether well done or not, a plea for more open minded communication.

Sincerely,

DH
 
Old 12-15-2008, 09:39 AM   #282
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

I think there is some confusion between how evolution works and what creationism and intelligent design are.

For me, these are not interchangeable terms and as discussing about semantics in a foreign language is not my cup of tea, I think it will be more productive more yonkyo practise and more locoplata drilling, at least for me.

It's me who has to "evolve", the arts are tools for my change. I don't need the tools to be changed to fit in my personal box.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 12-15-2008 at 09:45 AM.

 
Old 12-15-2008, 10:12 AM   #283
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
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So you said:"However I observe that there is more to see in the references that are being used. "

And I said I wasnt' sure what you meant and you say the above.

Ok, I have to ask what more is there to see?

I'm sorry, I'm just not following you. I'm seeing that terms are being tossed around that really don't apply and I can't seem to get anyone to differentiate biological evolution and the "Industrial Revolution" evolution- two completely different concepts.

Some folks wants to try and apply the evolution of Aikido to the concept of biological evolution, which is a change in the DNA, over maybe thousands or millions of years, to improve a species to adapt to survive and that just doesn't apply.

The other evolution, the kind I'm talking about is the concept of simply changing (improving) a technique because it gets you hurt in competition (or combat) or just doesn't work. The folks that do get this are saying that Aikido is perfect and doesn't need changing. To that I say anything manmade is NOT perfect and always has room for improvement. The some say it's the person that evolves, not the art. To that I say, yes we do evolve as people practitioners (hopefully), but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking specifically about the evolution of Aikido (because that's what this thread is about).
In my opinion, at the level you're discussing, aikido is it's practitioners.But where I stepped in this conversation was at the point where you mis-defined Revolution by omission of its many applicable meanings and then asserted it had no place in the art. So I suggested that you look deeper at the word revolution.

At the level I'm discussing, aikido is a product of nature, which is perfect. So before we go thinking that an exotic invasive Kudzo vine is superior to it's native neighbor plants and therefore humans should intervene in nature even further we should notice it was put by mankind where it didn't belong and where it would never have been in the first place. That thing, Kudzo was your example of an evolutionary change as superior, is just as it is and should've been left where it was. In balance with it's own environment. If we'd observed it in it's own nature for a bit longer we would've figured that out before it 'ate the south'; I hope. So I asked you to look deeper at the concept of evolution.
Much like anything new, like aikido for you, it is good to check it out a lot longer than we think before we go changing it for the better. I'm still checking it out. It still seems new.
Finally, it is my viewpoint that our next greatest evolution as humans and aikidoka will involve patience and observation for the pace of nature. Which is both ura and omote.

Woof-woof!

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 12-15-2008 at 10:20 AM.

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Old 12-15-2008, 10:39 AM   #284
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

What Clarence thinks or says, what I think or say, whether Clarence succeeds or not according to his standard, and whether Clarence succeeds or not according to my standard, are for the most part mutually independent.

You can misunderstand everything and then still reach the right conclusion. You can have perfect information and still reach the wrong conclusion. Doing things the right way, regardless of intent, can still produce harm. Doing things the wrong way, regardless of intent, can still produce benefit.

Before taking a step, we can wait for perfect conditions, but they may never come. We can wait until everybody is free from delusion, but I may be the person holding everyone up! What's a person to do?

A current focus of my own aikido practice is not getting entangled in the aforementioned crap, keeping mind and body integrated and free. If that is the part that survives another generation, I'm probably okay with that, regardless of the form it takes.

 
Old 12-15-2008, 10:45 AM   #285
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
At the level I'm discussing, aikido is a product of nature, which is perfect.
I don't know that I would agree with the latter statement. There is a quote I love on the nature of imperfection -- who said it I do not know -- but : "There is a crack in the world -- and that's how the light gets in."

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
So before we go thinking that an exotic invasive Kudzo vine is superior to it's native neighbor plants and therefore humans should intervene in nature even further we should notice it was put by mankind where it didn't belong and where it would never have been in the first place.
I only lately found out that kudzu is apparently edible. Someone should have told Southerners this -- we could have resolved our kudzu problems YEARS ago ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 12-15-2008, 11:09 AM   #286
Toby Threadgill
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Hello,

Interesting thread.

Something that seems to be missed is that aikido from a purely technical point of view is just another style of jujutsu. Every technique and every physical principle in aikido can be found in numerous schools of classical jujutsu, not just Daito ryu.

So the question is, what defines aikido?

Technique?

Pedagogy?

Philosophy?

Before you can debate the evolution of aikido I'd suggest you define what actually constitutes aikido. Without common ground to base this discussion on, you are debating apples and oranges.

Respectfully,

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
 
Old 12-15-2008, 11:17 AM   #287
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I don't know that I would agree with the latter statement. There is a quote I love on the nature of imperfection -- who said it I do not know -- but : "There is a crack in the world -- and that's how the light gets in."
When I wrote that statement I wondered whether I should go further at the moment to include imperfection as one of nature's 'perfections'. Now I'm glad I didn't because you said it so well.

Quote:
I only lately found out that kudzu is apparently edible. Someone should have told Southerners this -- we could have resolved our kudzu problems YEARS ago ...
It is legume after all.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 12-15-2008 at 11:22 AM.

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Old 12-15-2008, 11:18 AM   #288
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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It is legume, after all.
Ah.. Kudzu. The Demon Pea.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-15-2008, 11:27 AM   #289
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Ah.. Kudzu. The Demon Pea.
Kudzu,kudzu, the musical fruit........

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 12-15-2008, 11:59 AM   #290
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Something that seems to be missed is that aikido from a purely technical point of view is just another style of jujutsu. Every technique and every physical principle in aikido can be found in numerous schools of classical jujutsu, not just Daito ryu.

So the question is, what defines aikido?

Technique?

Pedagogy?

Philosophy?

Before you can debate the evolution of aikido I'd suggest you define what actually constitutes aikido. Without common ground to base this discussion on, you are debating apples and oranges.
Essentially, you are asking what distinguishes Aikido from DTR. A useful challenge. I have my thoughts on the nature of the physics and perceptual training, but little to compare from the standpoint of DTR to contrast those aspects so I am hesitant to make too-sweeping judgments

I would approach it from an unsystematic perspective and work backwards. What distinguishes the evolution of the various DTR strains from Aikido? If the question is evolution, the answer is differential fitness and reproduction, in this sense of the expansion in numbers of practitioners. The expansion of Aikido well outside of Japanese culture occurred in ways both similar to and in ways distinct from, the similar experience of Judo. Judo was advanced in a rationalist technical sport paradigm. That found fertile ground to grow in around the world.

Aikido took a different road, more feeling and concept of ethic and praxis welded together, without the aspect of sport, and it has also done quite well, from an evolutionary fitness perspective. DTR on the other hand is proceeding to introduce itself largely from the broader perspective where knowledge of Aikido has made it more passably familiar than "Daitah- whut?" That said, Aikido still seems to me more than merely a popularized DTR, and that seems to agree with many who have commented on the differences, here and in other places.

DTR remains almost wholly a pure bujutsu art, which for the purists is part of its appeal. Death and killing things have inherently limited popular appeal outside the professions requiring their familiarity. They may and often do become tiresome even for many of those. A samurai's career, after all, usually ended in one of two places, a grave or a monastery. (OK -- or in politics, but that is far more like the former than the latter.) Most people are interested in avoiding both, at least as long as possible.

What does this say about Aikido? I don't quite know except that's what has happened, and that Aikido's structure is fairly open and inviting of evolution (and therefore failed mutation, a valid and recurrent DTR criticism).

On the other hand, from what I have learned of it, the more closed nature of the traditional DTR ryu is more disciplined, more coherent in the sense of intentionally organized, but also less evolutionary in the same sense, and so, less liable of failing in some of the more embarrassing ways, by the same token.

It is early days yet to see what the arc of expansion will be for DTR -- which may say little for its eventual evolution, or its fitness, which at the beginning, at least, seem loosely connected to the evolution of aikido -- at least, that is, we keep seeming to talk to one another about the issue.

Cousins always seem to quibble over the grandfather's patrimony, don't they? I hope both sides will continue to avoid those parochial tendencies that remain strong in both of them. I hope your efforts toward that end will continue here and elsewhere because they each have much to remind one another of.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 12-15-2008, 04:48 PM   #291
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Hi Kevin!
It probably has a lot to do with semantics, but it's interesting to me how often "defense" takes on a negative connotation to people. In my opinion, there is only action and inaction; and offense or defense simply imply who's giving and who's receiving the attack. My view is that I can be defensive AND proactive/progressive in my approach to dealing with an attack...and even that this is usually the best way to prevent conflict in general. Defensive driving is a good example of what I'm trying to describe.
I was also curious what you mean by being on a philosophical level, though not in martial practice. My view is that people tend in one direction or the other (i.e. philosphical or physical), but cannot escape either. In my view, philosophy and physicality are just an extention of the mind-body dichotomy, and as such, are inseperable from each other. How the physical aspect of training evolves is through our philosophy, which is in turn shaped by our perception, which is based upon our physical interaction with the world around us, and so on and so forth.
Take care,
Matthew
ps-and not all us hippie fruity types are afraid to get physical. Even the softest peach has a pit that can break teeth...if you'll forgive the attempt at poetry.
Hi Matthew!

Semantics...yes. Based on your definition, I would agree with you. To me (as it appears to you as well), you have simply Stimulus and Response. I between it you have Choice. It may be a narrow gap or a wide gap between Stimulus and Response. With a narrow gap you'd have not as many choices, but you probablly still have some.

The only issue I have with defense is when you adopt it as a complete strategy or paradigm. To me, defense only mentality does not resolve the situation, physically or philosophically, it only protects you temporarily. You still need to take some short of action to resolve the situation. It may be to attack or render you opponent physically disabled. Or it may be to enter into some sort of "peace talk" that negoitiates an understaning or resolution.

I think for many the paradigm of aikido is that it is a defensive martial art. I don't think it is. I think it is a martial art of harmony which means we complete actions or have complete resolution as a goal. That can vary depending on the situation.

I just don't think defense describes well what we really do. Hopefully we are much more skillful than that!

However as you state it may be semantics, but I think choice of words is very important so I don't care for the word Defensive or Defense.

On the second part of your question.

The phrase walk softly and carry a big stick comes to mind. Maybe not the best analogy, but I think it is a decent one.

I believe we should live our lives in such as way as to be compassionate and careing and we should practice our training that way.

However, we must make sure we are clear on what we are practicing...a martial art whose purpose is to cause harm and death possibly. A serious responsibility and one we must be careful not to decieve ourselves that it is anything but that at the root level of practice.

You are correct I think, you cannot escape either. That is the paradox of our training. both extremes are unhealthy I think. One side of the equation reframes the practice into something other than a martial art in which in a perfect world no one gets hurt. the other extreme walks down the street looking at everyone as a mugger or attacker always on guard.

moderation is the key.

I think though in actual physical practice we should be true to that practice and execute it as the base level of what it is. A strike is simply a strike, an attack is an attack, and we should deal with them as such. Nothing more, nothing less. void of emotion in the moment. (Mushin)

That said, we do need to consider the compassion of our actions to make sure we do indeed respond with an appropriate and skillful response. I think that happens before the moment of attack (in between that is) Stimuls and Response...Choice is in between.

So, therein is the paradox. And so, therfore yes, macroscopically, I agree, you can't really separate them when you look at it holistically!

Again though, I think it important to not overthink or over complicate the physical practice of aikido with reframing or revision by the introduction of philosophy or spirituality.

Anyway, I hope that explains my position! Thanks!

 
Old 12-15-2008, 04:58 PM   #292
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Buck wrote:

Quote:
But I can see where a person may say, BJJ is on the evolutionary scale below Aikido. Why, because Aikido attempts in philosophy to something very difficult, and that is to not do harm like BJJ is allowed. We might say MMA is even below BJJ, I don't have to explain that. We can also say Aikido has not evolved because it doesn't update's itself to the modern world where MMA fighters are plenty. And so on.
As you know I don't necessarily see things the same way on BJJ/AIKIDO/MMA was you do. Won't rehash that here. However, if you do indeed believe that the distinct difference betweeen aikido and BJJ is based on the allowing or disallowing of harm...

well then I'd say there are alot of hippocritical folks practicing aikido out there as I have learned more how to not hurt folks (In real life, not in the dojo) in BJJ than in aikido. So I'd say in that respect then BJJ might be more authentic or honest.

So you have to be careful about the categorical conclusions you draw based on your paradigm about what something is and what it is not!

Don't have much time right now, but will try to discuss more later!

 
Old 12-15-2008, 05:06 PM   #293
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
I am sorry. By saying "On a battle field people use martial arts in case they lose a weapon, so that they can retrieve their weapon and be able to continue the fight." I didn't play any words' game - so, please do not use my clear statement to form a false conclusion. In that context "martial arts" means an empty hand fighting skill (ju-jitsu, daito-ryu, ..).
Sorry, too late, I already did( altho I had no intention to single you out or mention any names), as it's not clear, nor is it clear to me what it has to do with this thread.
Imo, that statement begs for an expoundment. If it read "the empty hand portion of martial arts", it'd be much more clear, as it's well known that martial arts are weapons arts, especially in Aikido.

These vids explain this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPfXkxF9C-E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH0-IyJPsyc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9PTMSwr1h0

Notice in the vids , he says that in order for Aikido to be developed( to evolve), it must maintain martial effectiveness. He's also saying that Aikido is devolving, because it's being practiced martially ineffective. So, how does one know if a technique is martially effective, if not by 'combat-like' competition? So, imo, Aikido techniques that come out as a result of 'combat-like' competiton would be an example of Aikido evolving. Speaking of that practicing with a wooden ken/jo was an evolution.

Last edited by GeneC : 12-15-2008 at 05:15 PM.

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Old 12-15-2008, 05:14 PM   #294
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Buck,

Based on your hierachry of MMA BJJ and Aikido on a spectrum of evolution....

That is like saying that Anglianism, is more evolved than Catholism, that is more evolved than Paganism.

They are all different practices on the same theme essentially. Now A Catholic may disagree at a certain level of technicality that Catholism has anything remotely to do with Paganism, but they are all religions with practices.

Merry Christmas!

 
Old 12-15-2008, 05:31 PM   #295
Erick Mead
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Buck wrote:

As you know I don't necessarily see things the same way on BJJ/AIKIDO/MMA was you do. Won't rehash that here. However, if you do indeed believe that the distinct difference betweeen aikido and BJJ is based on the allowing or disallowing of harm...

well then I'd say there are alot of hippocritical folks practicing aikido out there as I have learned more how to not hurt folks (In real life, not in the dojo) in BJJ than in aikido. So I'd say in that respect then BJJ might be more authentic or honest.

So you have to be careful about the categorical conclusions you draw based on your paradigm about what something is and what it is not!
From my perspective Aikido does not spend as much time or attention in teaching "how not to hurt," because the paradigm of the art is cooperative and not intended to reach certain levels or aspects of "unrestrained" action seen in BJJ. That is also a false dichotomy because as you know it is precisely certain restraints in the practice of BJJ that allows other things to be less restrained. The approach to restraint is very different in each art.

On the other hand, I do acknowledge a tendency in some aikido training to so allow the image of nonviolent restraint in training to obscure the violent reality in which Aikido actually subsists. To the extent that some people become unaware or operate under some illusions that the things they learn cannot truly be damaging if done poorly or without restraint.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 12-15-2008, 05:32 PM   #296
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Buck Wrote:

Quote:
I guess iamb, what is evolved or evolving or needs to evolve is based on what people are looking for. Like you said there is an unknown to how you would evolve the core stuff. I think many people also have a tough time with that. this is because we all are looking in the martial arts that isn't universal to all. But, instead unique to each person training, and the end the reach. If we look a person to see if any evolution has taken place- as a result of what ever the art they take- putting them on the evolution chart. We do this so we can see what took place in regard to the variables, speciations etc. I think it would be very interesting to know.
Couple of comment here.

One I don't think martial arts or practices can be all things to all persons. I think this is salient to the conversation of evolution as at it's core O'Sensei was pretty clear on what he codified as the core principles and values of the art.

In that respect, we are free to interepret and explore in our practice however we want. We may bring in a BJJ instructor for a seminar, or a DRAJ instructor, or a Tai Chi instructor. this does not mean we are evolving, but simply looking at the study in a different way to help us interpret and improve our understanding of the Core Princpals. Evolution to me implies that we are changing the core of our practice, that is values, philosophies, measures.

Which ones would you propose need to be changed if any?

Is it possible to learn aikido principles solely from a BJJ practice? I think you can. At what point to you cross the line and say you are no longer practicing aikido, but BJJ?

Actually BJJ and Judo are a better analogy because they are so close in practice. How do you know when you have crossed the line in practice?

The answer I think is when the practitioner forms an affinity with a particular practice and say "I do Aikido".

But back to all things to all people. I think instructors need to stay focused on the core of their practice and not be concerned with trends and opinions. I think if you are trained and mentored successfully and properly in your chosen art, then it is an easy thing to do. I think when you are not sure of yourself, your practice, and don't really know what it is that you are doing, then you tend to want to change things at the core.

That is not to say that we should shut our eyes things external to our practice and that we should not be open to adopting new training methodologies and experimentation...I think that is very important. However, is it evolution or simply a re-interpretation?

 
Old 12-15-2008, 05:37 PM   #297
Erick Mead
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Buck,

Based on your hierachry of MMA BJJ and Aikido on a spectrum of evolution....

That is like saying that Anglianism, is more evolved than Catholism, that is more evolved than Paganism.

They are all different practices on the same theme essentially. Now A Catholic may disagree at a certain level of technicality that Catholism has anything remotely to do with Paganism, but they are all religions with practices.

Merry Christmas!
Since we baptized most of the trappings of Christmas -- which were mostly pagan to begin with, I would tend to say that the Church has adopted pagan elements whenever they were suitable and good and rejected those that were not. Of course, I wouldn't say that is evolution exactly. Assimilation, maybe. (obligatory quote :"Resistance is useless.")

I think the issue of competition is like that in aikido. I see it as not suitable for the art, both in formal terms (the Founder disapproved) and in reasoned terms. I see evidence that competition defeats some important elements of what I see aikido accomplishing

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 12-15-2008, 05:40 PM   #298
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
From my perspective Aikido does not spend as much time or attention in teaching "how not to hurt," because the paradigm of the art is cooperative and not intended to reach certain levels or aspects of "unrestrained" action seen in BJJ. That is also a false dichotomy because as you know it is precisely certain restraints in the practice of BJJ that allows other things to be less restrained. The approach to restraint is very different in each art.

On the other hand, I do acknowledge a tendency in some aikido training to so allow the image of nonviolent restraint in training to obscure the violent reality in which Aikido actually subsists. To the extent that some people become unaware or operate under some illusions that the things they learn cannot truly be damaging if done poorly or without restraint.
Overall I think I agree with you Erik. However, I am not really sure I understand what you mean by "unrestrained" action.

Techniques and use of force is exactly the same in both. What differs I think is the degree of aliveness in Randori. Is this the what you are referring to? The difference I see is Aikido is about 90% kata based to teach and instill correctness in learning "AikI" (a secondary goal and endstate). Whereas BJJ is about 40% Kata based to teach and instill correctness in empty handed grappling effectiveness (secondary goal and endstate). Aiki in BJJ would be a means to the end where in aikido it is the endstate in and of itself.

The difference I think between DO and SU. Results ironically may end up being the same actually, but in practice two methodologies approach the same primary endstate, which I believe to be personal happiness and mastery in a different way. Of course YMMV.

But, yes, overall I agree.

 
Old 12-15-2008, 05:46 PM   #299
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Actually BJJ and Judo are a better analogy because they are so close in practice. How do you know when you have crossed the line in practice?
When you spend more time buttscooting than slamming your partner on the mat.


Quote:
I think when you are not sure of yourself, your practice, and don't really know what it is that you are doing, then you tend to want to change things at the core.
Without knowing what the core is, I might say.

 
Old 12-15-2008, 05:47 PM   #300
Erick Mead
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Notice in the vids , he says that in order for Aikido to be developed( to evolve), it must maintain martial effectiveness. He's also saying that Aikido is devolving, because it's being practiced martially ineffective. So, how does one know if a technique is martially effective, if not by 'combat-like' competition? So, imo, Aikido techniques that come out as a result of 'combat-like' competiton would be an example of Aikido evolving. Speaking of that practicing with a wooden ken/jo was an evolution.
Nishio was not speaking of a competitive notion of aikido. There is a very stark difference between being mindful of winning the point and being mindful of killing the opponent. The latter is martial; the former is not.

Martial training -- in the sense of being mindful of killing, explicitly, (whether you are seeking to do it or not) may be practiced and honed fast or slow, and with or without a partner, depending on the art in question. Competition is part of the modern measurement fetish.

We keep score in fixed intervals where our ancestors would play ball games that ran from village to village all day til daylight left and everybody was too drunk or tired to remember a score. More often the game's results were "fixed" based on some local traditon being reenacted. My wife's ancestors in Gubbio to this day race three saints up a mountain and the same one wins every time. They liked it so much they now race the same three saints in Jessop PA, (with the same result.) Sant' Ubaldo always wins.

We modern folk want toughminded, numerical zero-sum results -- not mindful, (dare I say, joyful) incremental, continuous work on the essentially infinite and intractable problem that is war and violence. As I see it, aikido is meant to raise a different frame of mind about that problem and its practice.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 12-15-2008 at 05:54 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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