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Old 09-04-2008, 09:13 PM   #51
gabe
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Hi Jonathan... glad you enjoyed the seminar, we had fun putting it on. Did we get a chance to train together?

I share your experience w/CT setting things up slowly and then *BAM* though I disagree slightly w/your conclusion... I've found that you do have other choices than just "anticipate the throw and "jump"" when he does that. For me, the more I'm able to keep a unified *core* the easier it is to receive his technique. In fact, he doesn't like it when ukes jump for him, we have a tendency to move easily at my dojo, and he generally admonishes us to "let me do it" (-: The more I've been able to maintain my own center during the "setup" part of the technique, the more the ukemi works. It's interesting.

In any case, we are hoping to have him back again next year, and hopefully we will see you again!

gabe.
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Old 09-04-2008, 09:54 PM   #52
Chicko Xerri
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Techniques in Aikido act on the Mind Body Center. One is mistaken to think techniques are executed on the extremities of the body only, hands, limbs and joints etc. True Aikido technique acts on that which motivates and initiates movement. Nikyo, Sankyo and other technique form shapes in the physical wrists limbs and body. But also internally. The truly effective technique acts on the Mind Body Center. Control in locking and unlocking this Center without pain in the joints and body should be our guide for technique advancement and it can come from sophisticated Ukemi.( the ability to become sensitive to changes within movement.) Higher level Aikido begins with high level Ukemi.
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:42 AM   #53
JO
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Hello Gabe,

We did train together a couple of times, unless there's another Gabe at your dojo. I'm the shodan from Quebec City with the short beard and long light brown hair tied in a braid. I was also at the seminar with Frank Doran last summer.

I think I know what you mean about finding the core, but I tend to think that nage should work a little more at making that connection. Especially when you are instructed to stand solid. I mean, for all the talking he did on the "code" and different types of training, he didn't really say much about how uke should attack (with the possible exception of the yokomen training where he specifically had us tracking the nage and trying to knock him in the head as he moved (even Szczepan would have appreciated that part, as I know from the number of times I've knocked him in the head).

Jonathan Olson
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Old 09-05-2008, 01:15 PM   #54
aikilouis
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
[...]with the short beard and long light brown hair tied in a braid.
Why am I not surprised ?

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Old 09-06-2008, 11:51 AM   #55
gabe
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

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Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
Hello Gabe,

We did train together a couple of times, unless there's another Gabe at your dojo. I'm the shodan from Quebec City with the short beard and long light brown hair tied in a braid. I was also at the seminar with Frank Doran last summer.

I think I know what you mean about finding the core, but I tend to think that nage should work a little more at making that connection. Especially when you are instructed to stand solid. I mean, for all the talking he did on the "code" and different types of training, he didn't really say much about how uke should attack (with the possible exception of the yokomen training where he specifically had us tracking the nage and trying to knock him in the head as he moved (even Szczepan would have appreciated that part, as I know from the number of times I've knocked him in the head).
Ah, yeah, I remember now. I had a good time training with you. Lots of fun. Agreed on not much input re: how uke should attack, would be nice to have more information on that.
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Old 09-06-2008, 12:36 PM   #56
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Hi
Quote:
Gabriel Guzman wrote: View Post
... how uke should attack, would be nice to have more information on that.
I'm not sure whether I understand your statement: Which different ways to attack do you know?
Do you have different ways to deliver shomen uchi for instance?

The only attack I know where there is a discussion about different ways to understand it is yokomen uchi: Whether it's a long cutting movement (kesa giri) or short, narrow and sharp movement which comes near shuto uchi.

Interesting: What questions do you have about "how uke should attack?

Greetings,
Carsten
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Old 09-06-2008, 02:07 PM   #57
gabe
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Hi

I'm not sure whether I understand your statement: Which different ways to attack do you know?
Do you have different ways to deliver shomen uchi for instance?

The only attack I know where there is a discussion about different ways to understand it is yokomen uchi: Whether it's a long cutting movement (kesa giri) or short, narrow and sharp movement which comes near shuto uchi.

Interesting: What questions do you have about "how uke should attack?

Greetings,
Carsten
It's not so much questions on what a shomen looks like, or a yokomen, or a tsuki, but... more on what a "good attack" looks like if you will. I'm sure there are several forum posts on just such questions, so I'd rather not stray too far off topic here.

Different teachers will tell you different things re: "how you should attack" it can be confusing, but is part of the process, finding the "principles" behind attacking w/little formal instruction on attacks.
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Old 09-06-2008, 10:46 PM   #58
deathlinenetworks
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

jumping while taking ukemi??? up till now whenever my instructor throws me, i'll just follow the flow. never knew you have to jump in order to do it. I've turned it into a habit of mine. If there's no momentum or power from a technique, I will not flip around. Will just fall normally.
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Old 09-07-2008, 02:03 PM   #59
JO
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Since this thread started out discussing the quality of Tissier's ukes, I don't feel a discussion on what is expected of a good uke is too far off topic.

A good example is the meaning of "falling normally" if the technique has no momentum or power. In my default way of training, if a technique has no power or momentum I just stand there. What does it mean to "fall normally" if there is nothing making you fall in the first place. And I'm not even yet getting into adding any resistance against the technique or counterattacking.

The truth is there is no one way to attack in aikido and that what is expected from you can change from one dojo to the next. On top of that, even in a given dojo, the intensity and freeness of an attack will vary depending on the level of the uke, the level of the nage, whether it is a completely prearranged form or some level of jyu waza.

So in a seminar, when an instructor is surrounded by people who have never or rarely trained with him, it can be nice to know what is expected at a given time. When I am told to stand solid, I stand solid. Even as he throws me I continue to stand solid. If there is no power or unbalancing in the technique, I don't fall. If he's Tissier, I fall but my joint's get pulled a bit. With some instructors, my joint's don't get pulled but I learn to fly for short distances.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 09-17-2008, 08:15 AM   #60
Mato-san
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Good points about short distance and long distance ,pulls and all the rest of it. The topic interests me so obviously I have been playing with it on the mat.

From my own experimental probe into the realm I have played with holding on to nage for the entire throw (yes I have suffered whiplash before so I know when I really have to let go). I don`t request the same from my partners but I do ask they complete a throw the way it was intended to be.

There is a balance I believe.

Uke can let go early as can Nage, for safety.
Or Uke can hang on as can Nage. Depends how physical you want to get.

Or find the balance and just know.

As nage I would never hang on longer than they could handle, case by case.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 09-19-2008, 10:09 AM   #61
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
If he's Tissier, I fall but my joint's get pulled a bit. With some instructors, my joint's don't get pulled but I learn to fly for short distances.
Are you used to throwing uke straight down, vertical?
Or is it away from you, horizontal? "fly for short distances"
Or does ist depend? ;-)

I think both versions need different ukemi?

Carsten
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Old 09-19-2008, 10:54 AM   #62
JO
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

My answer to your question is it depends.

I agree the final look of ukemi depends on how the technique is done. However, with the best aikidoka I've trained with, you don't have to know what to expect or what is expected of you, you simply get thrown. The direction is not especially important, although it affects how you land.

The trouble I had with Tissier pulling joints had nothing to do with the direction of the technique. More the fact that he asked me to stand strong and then went through the joints at good speed and power. This requires quick reflexes on uke's part to keep up, which would be unnecessary if nage had proper control of uke's center.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 09-19-2008, 11:12 AM   #63
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
This requires quick reflexes on uke's part to keep up, which would be unnecessary if nage had proper control of uke's center.
Or uke must know the direction of the throw and will anticipate by jumping by himself as the ukes in this style are doing.

Opppsss... we are back to the beginning of discussion LOL

Nagababa

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Old 09-19-2008, 12:37 PM   #64
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Hey Mr. S!

quick question: If during normal training, uke learns direction of the throw from the nage doing the throw with less power, and less speed, while engaging uke's center...and uke therefore knows that nage can complete the throw...

How do you feel about a full power full speed demonstration with said uke anticipating the throw to avoid any possible injury?

In other words, Uke does anticipate, know nage will complete the throw, but they move in that fashion to protect themselves?

Not saying this is happening here, just trying to reason some things out.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 09-19-2008, 08:42 PM   #65
JO
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

This discussion is steering towards one of my pet peeves in aikido, which is fear based effectiveness. That is techniques that work because uke is afraid for his health. In many situations, it may be the best possible response of uke to anticipate a throw to protect himself, but in my opinion this just demonstrates a flaw in nage's aikido.

My ideal aikido, which may or may not be achievable, is full contact and full speed but nobody gets hurt. I'm not quite sure how you achieve that, but fear based effectiveness is definitely not it. If nage can't throw uke without injuring him, he should stop and try again, even at high speed with uke resisting. Knowing that nage can hurt you is a good thing to remember, but using fear is a crutch, and a weak one at that, becuase if he can jump in anticipation, there is a chance he may be able to do something else. Better for uke to have no choice in the matter.

On a related side note. During the seminar with Tissier, I had lunch with a couple students of Donovan Waite. One mentioned that when Donoan would sense him anticipating the technique he would change it up and drill him in a completely different direction. Now there's a lesson in sensitivity. I've been thrown by Donovan before, he's one of the ones that has shown me how to fly

Jonathan Olson
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Old 09-20-2008, 01:52 AM   #66
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
My answer to your question is it depends.

I agree the final look of ukemi depends on how the technique is done. However, with the best aikidoka I've trained with, you don't have to know what to expect or what is expected of you, you simply get thrown.
Yes, I agree. That' sthe wyay it should be.

I asked this question because some uke don't expect to be led straigh down an move their center away from nage. If they do so it causes trouble for them.

Quote:
The trouble I had with Tissier pulling joints had nothing to do with the direction of the technique. More the fact that he asked me to stand strong and then went through the joints at good speed and power.
Ok, thats another situation.

Quote:
This requires quick reflexes on uke's part to keep up, which would be unnecessary if nage had proper control of uke's center.
Yes, quick reflexes are needed.
And a flexible, smooth center.

But never ever we try to work through pain or fear. And never ever we have our uke to anticipate our technique. That's a "sin" in our view.
We always try it to do just the way you describe it your teacher does: To control ukes center an lead him - without pulling joints or something like that.

I just tried to understand why you - and some others - made experiences with Christian which I can't really explain to me.

Thank you,
Carsten
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Old 09-20-2008, 05:26 AM   #67
Michael Douglas
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
...My ideal aikido, which may or may not be achievable, is full contact and full speed but nobody gets hurt. I'm not quite sure how you achieve that, but fear based effectiveness is definitely not it. If nage can't throw uke without injuring him, he should stop and try again, even at high speed with uke resisting.
Nice post Jonathan, great points you make.
Surely a great part of aikido is not trainable at full contact and full speed without cooperation or delusion. Hence the COOPERATIVE nature of almost all aikido practice. Surely it is fine to train this way?

One example : kote gaeshi ... to my mind this technique, aikido style, when fully applied with force and speed to a non-conforming non-anticipatory non-aikido 'attacker' who hasn't trained months/years to achieve very tough joints ... will result in injury or failure. One or the other. (It would NEVER result in a somersault in my opinion.)
I believe this is the intention of most aikido thechniques. The techniques themselves are only able to scrape into the 'non injurious' happy area when either : the uke predicts/anticipates to save himself OR the technique fails but the uke acts as if it succeeds.
Oh by the way, I don't believe Ueshiba ever intended his aikido to be non-injurious.

(Ikkyo I believe is ikkyo for a few reasons, not the least of which it is able to be practiced by newbies without the cooperate-or-break mindset required by a lot of the later techniques)
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Old 09-20-2008, 04:36 PM   #68
Flintstone
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
I believe this is the intention of most aikido thechniques. The techniques themselves are only able to scrape into the 'non injurious' happy area when either : the uke predicts/anticipates to save himself OR the technique fails but the uke acts as if it succeeds.
While not Aikido, there's some old footage of Don Angier Sensei demonstrating kotegaeshi and a) uke doesn't anticipate, b) the technique makes uke drop down in a flash AND c) uke is not injured at all. It's now fashionable to call that "IT". I think it's the way to go, not the flying ukes show we are so used to see...
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Old 09-21-2008, 12:48 AM   #69
Michael Douglas
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Good find Alejandro, can you give us a link?
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Old 09-21-2008, 04:50 AM   #70
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

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Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Good find Alejandro, can you give us a link?
Sure. Here they are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Veyp1...eature=related (from 8:00 till the end)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNQl1MZSuKc&feature=related (continuation of the previous clip)

These two clips feature kotegaeshi, but the whole series is very instructive. Enjoy!
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Old 09-21-2008, 08:42 AM   #71
Michael Douglas
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
While not Aikido,...
Indeed. I was referring to the lead-return-wristtwist-somersault thing we see much more often in aikido.

Great vid, I like his careful explanatory style.
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Old 09-21-2008, 11:23 AM   #72
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
While not Aikido, there's some old footage of Don Angier Sensei demonstrating kotegaeshi and a) uke doesn't anticipate, b) the technique makes uke drop down in a flash AND c) uke is not injured at all. It's now fashionable to call that "IT". I think it's the way to go, not the flying ukes show we are so used to see...
What you are describing as what Uke is not doing can also be described by what uke ought to be developing: musubi.

As aikidoka, all of the time in any role, we are to develop the same body of principles. In this instance musubi, or attentive connection/tieing, services the transmission system of the vehicle.

As an aikidokist, uke or nage, we operate in the same principles on the same vehicle and when we detect a gap we fill it in practice with a principled application. Again, on 'either side'. That is how I maintain my connection and my realness.

As far as fashion is concerned, I hear the 80's are in, too.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 09-21-2008 at 11:25 AM.

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Old 09-21-2008, 01:45 PM   #73
Flintstone
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
What you are describing as what Uke is not doing can also be described by what uke ought to be developing: musubi.
Thas, of course, your view. There's no possible musubi in that kind of application, IMHO.

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
As aikidoka, all of the time in any role, we are to develop the same body of principles. In this instance musubi, or attentive connection/tieing, services the transmission system of the vehicle.
That's your view. In my view, uke's role is to attack (no non sense). And uke's responsability is to learn how to take ukemi safely (and flying high in concrete is not safe in my dictionary).

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
As an aikidokist, uke or nage, we operate in the same principles on the same vehicle and when we detect a gap we fill it in practice with a principled application. Again, on 'either side'. That is how I maintain my connection and my realness.
Maintaining connection is the role of tori. Never uke's.

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
As far as fashion is concerned, I hear the 80's are in, too.
Good bless the 80's !!
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Old 09-21-2008, 02:11 PM   #74
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
That's your view. In my view, uke's role is to attack (no non sense). And uke's responsability is to learn how to take ukemi safely
While looking for kaeshi options.

Quote:
Maintaining connection is the role of tori. Never uke's.
Not sure about that. No connection, no kaeshi. (imho, of course, respectfully etc.)

Quote:
Good bless the 80's !!
Yeah!

PS. Travel cancelled due to work. Sorry.

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Old 09-21-2008, 02:55 PM   #75
Flintstone
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
While looking for kaeshi options.
You know we always agree in this particular.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Not sure about that. No connection, no kaeshi. (imho, of course, respectfully etc.)
Yes, that's right. But then I believe we'll agree that this is a different scenario that the one at hand. One thing is to maintain connection while looking for a suki to be exploited, and other very different thing is to maintaing connection to make tori look good.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
PS. Travel cancelled due to work. Sorry.
No problem. My agenda is quite busy too . We'll meet at some other occasion.
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