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Old 08-17-2008, 10:59 PM   #26
ramenboy
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

i have to agree w mariya and others here. no offence, szczepan ( we normally don't agree anyway! :P), its all good.

i think also, with someone of tissier sensei's caliber, just like like yokota, osawa and even berthaiume sensei, they'll throw you in regard of your ability to take ukemi.
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Old 08-18-2008, 09:25 AM   #27
mari
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
You are reading too much in my post. I never said that 'Christian Tissier's Aikdio is gymnastics'. I said that ukemi of his uke is a healthy gymnastics.
Uke's ukemi is only as good as nage's technique.

I am sorry I read too much into your words, I sort of take the post personally, like probably most european aikido practitioners would. We all at some point have idolized Christian Tissier
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Old 08-18-2008, 09:38 AM   #28
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Mariya Cacheva wrote: View Post
I am sorry I read too much into your words, I sort of take the post personally, like probably most european aikido practitioners would. We all at some point have idolized Christian Tissier
That's much of an overstatement, I believe. Me? No problem, some things I like, some not, like everybody. Just think that ukemi is too flashy and not much safe outside the dojo.

Best.
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Old 08-18-2008, 11:37 AM   #29
Michael Douglas
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
... I said that ukemi of his uke is a healthy gymnastics.
...
So all these large-motion techniques can be safely received using normal rolls forward or backward.
I mostly agree. Some of those techniques are even more safely received by gently sitting down, or ... reluctantly descending.

Quote:
Mariya Cacheva wrote: View Post
...In a couple of weeks, I will be able to practice for a whole month with people who learn directly from Tissier Shihan, I will make sure to try to take every technique rolling forward or backward and will let you know of the result
You might not have the chance, you might find peer-pressure encouraging you to somersault through the air at every opportunity.

I just watched these three vids, chosen randomly from the u-tube ;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENSat0bmUpA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtqoQu083kU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvwl-1nb-8U
The third one seems fairly sensible, the first two are very much demos. Even in the Dublin seminar we only see sensible efficient falling from (apparently, to my eyes) non-Tissier students.
By sensible I knida mean energy-efficient and striving for an end-point that isn't flat on the floor.
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Old 08-18-2008, 12:00 PM   #30
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
In that case, I would like it if you were to elaborate on your experience. For example, the length of your experience, or perhaps extent,would be a better word. Or the context. Was it a workshop, did you take Ukemi from Tissier , and what level of practice were you at when you had that experience?
Thanks. I'd appreciate it.
Hello Jennifer,
How's going?
You are requesting a lot of info about me Without giving anything about yourself. Are you working for any secret service? marketing? church?
Let's simply say I've already practiced with CT before you was born...

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 08-18-2008, 12:15 PM   #31
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Mariya Cacheva wrote: View Post
In a couple of weeks, I will be able to practice for a whole month with people who learn directly from Tissier Shihan, I will make sure to try to take every technique rolling forward or backward and will let you know of the result
They will not like it. As a next step, they will start to explain you how you have to behave 'correctly', so their techniques will be able to produce such flashy flips.Then you will have two choices:
1. be trained by them as a Pavlov's dog to react 'correctly' on particular signals
2. go home and practice aikido

Kind regards

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 08-18-2008, 12:22 PM   #32
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Jerome Cervantes wrote: View Post
i have to agree w mariya and others here. no offence, szczepan ( we normally don't agree anyway! :P), its all good.

i think also, with someone of tissier sensei's caliber, just like like yokota, osawa and even berthaiume sensei, they'll throw you in regard of your ability to take ukemi.
I agree, but very many of overzealous uke imagine that by such flashy flips they make looks better their instructor. From this moment, the practice has nothing to do with aikido and become healthy gymnastic.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 08-18-2008, 02:19 PM   #33
JO
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Hey Szczepan,

Why all the secrecy. She didn't ask you for state secrets, just to explain how much hands on knowledge of Tissier's aikido you have. Personnally I have no opinion as of yet. But I am going to Tissier's seminar in Montreal in two weeks. You going to be there?

Jonathan Olson
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Old 08-18-2008, 02:43 PM   #34
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

"Nothing works in Aikido, nothing"

C. Tissier. Aikido Today Magazine #43.

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Old 08-18-2008, 03:02 PM   #35
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
"Nothing works in Aikido, nothing"

C. Tissier. Aikido Today Magazine #43.
Looks like Tissier agrees with NagaBaba...

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
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Old 08-18-2008, 06:29 PM   #36
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Hello Jennifer,
How's going?
You are requesting a lot of info about me Without giving anything about yourself. Are you working for any secret service? marketing? church?
Let's simply say I've already practiced with CT before you was born...


Yes, I am an operative from the CIA. And now that I know you took Ukemi from Tissier Sensei over 40 years ago.........I'm even more curious. Honestly, I got the solid impression that you'd been involved in aikido for a lot fewer years than I, but that is only from online observations, your photo, and your bio.

My info is fairly complete in my bio. Yours is pretty, well,....incomplete........and I'm not keeping anything under my hat. You made a pretty big statement and I wonder where you're coming from. Seems pretty reasonable to me. Otherwise should one just toss in the hat when some unknown person says, "They suck." Don't think so.
People who I personally train with and have a good respect for admire Tissier Sensei very much. I'm attempting to balance the scales by weighing the gravity of your experience against someone like Bruce Bookman. That's why I ask. Again, it seems straight forward enough. Unless you just don't want to answer. then just say, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you." and I'll understand.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-18-2008 at 06:43 PM.

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Old 08-18-2008, 07:39 PM   #37
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
Hey Szczepan,

Why all the secrecy. She didn't ask you for state secrets, just to explain how much hands on knowledge of Tissier's aikido you have. Personnally I have no opinion as of yet. But I am going to Tissier's seminar in Montreal in two weeks. You going to be there?
Hello JO,
I was last year, but now I'm pretty busy. So not sure I can make it.May be we can meet at Chiba sensei seminar? If yes, it will be terrific chance to check how you learned high flying ukemi a la uke of CT

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 08-18-2008, 07:44 PM   #38
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
I'm attempting to balance the scales by weighing the gravity of your experience.
My weight is about 70 kg. How about Bruce?

Nagababa

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Old 08-18-2008, 08:53 PM   #39
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
My weight is about 70 kg. How about Bruce?
I dunno. Maybe you can ask him yourself at the Chiba Seminar. He was Chiba Sensei's student for 16 years.Perhaps he'll be there.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 08-20-2008, 02:00 AM   #40
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

I have great respect for Tissier Sensei. And in every organisation, there are people who try to please the teacher by over-fulfilling what they assume are his expectations. Some fall for no reason, others injure people for no reason…

Some related points:
- I have seen Tissier Sensei grab Philippe Orban by the hair and hammer him into the mat with irimi nage right where they were standing. Orban Sensei certainly had the ukemi to deal with that, too.
- It is true some of his students get quite confused when you don't follow the choreography. They might indeed then say things like "When you put this foot forward instead of the other one we cannot practice this technique." and a few will give you a you-are-ignorant look while they say it.
- However, they certainly train against resisting ukes. One of his main points is that you should practice doing technique against centred resistance, rather than just change the technique.
- I trained at a Tissier affiliated dojo for two years, it was the most acceptable one around, but still I often hated their fluffy style back then. Today, however, I am immensely grateful for the general movement and posture awareness I learned there, especially through the ukemi.
- Finally: I know at least one person who permanently damaged their lower back by doing those extremely elegant backward "rolls" they do, a bit too often (legs outstretched, looks a bit like tipping a bowl that then comes back into balance). So that is my point for the OP.

I have been to a couple of his seminars, and he made a point of going around and throwing everybody. Go there and find out!
N.
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Old 08-25-2008, 08:15 AM   #41
deathlinenetworks
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

not expecting all these posts....

doesn't matter if the ukemi is too flashy, impractical, so on and so forth. The thought of doing something like that makes me happy. besides, is fun to learn something extra. Other than that, they get up so quickly after falling. saves time
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Old 08-27-2008, 09:12 AM   #42
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum wrote: View Post
I was only able to achieve noticeable progress after I got a chance to train under instructors like Frank Ostoff Sensei and Jan Nevelius Sensei who have developed, as part of their wider approach to Aikido, a clear methodology for teaching ukemi.
I've had two seminars with Frank Ostoff Sensei. He is a wonderful teacher and my ukemi improved quite a bit after his seminar. And the way I teach ukemi was changed completly.

I had the opportunity to train with Tissier Sensei in 2003 when he taught at the Boulder Aikikai Summer Camp in the Rockies. (http://tinyurl.com/5e98rf) He and his ukes are amazing. Undeniably, taking ukemi for Tissier Sensei will keep you in shape. Some people criticize the French style of ukemi, but no matter what, you can never say they are lazy with their ukemi. So in answer to the original post, I'd say that one of the 'secrets' is to not be lazy. Don't 'make' nage push/pull you around. Instead, be an active participant in the movement.

One of my favorite ukes to watch (imitate) is Aiki Web founder Jun Akiyama. Perhaps he has some advice.
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Old 09-01-2008, 10:34 PM   #43
deathlinenetworks
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Don Ellingsworth. Saw the video of the training on youtube. Looks fun.......
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Old 09-02-2008, 12:58 AM   #44
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Don Ellingsworth wrote: View Post

One of my favorite ukes to watch (imitate) is Aiki Web founder Jun Akiyama. Perhaps he has some advice.
In fact, I only had the occasion to watch for one week in France once, but now that you mention it - that was very impressive. Jun, are you willing to contribute thoughts about ukemi and how you do it, or have you already done so somewhere?
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Old 09-04-2008, 06:50 AM   #45
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Hi,

I'm doing aikido in a Tissier affiliated dojo for over 14 years now. Since some years we no longer belong to the FFAAA of France but are a member of the German Aikido Federation with Christian Tissier and Endo Seishiro as our Shihan. Both of them disciples of Yamaguchi Sensei.
This debate about the ukemi of his uke sounds quite a bit strange to me. I registered to this forum just to give my opinion.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
But when you will get more ikkyo under your belt you will observe, that CT is using very wide circles. This kind of movement is not locking joints at all. Normally you can't lead anybody with such movement if he doesn't know what to do, if he doesn't have idea that he must follow nage.
That's right: We try not to use the pain of locked joints to control an lead uke.
We try instead to use our legs and cutting movements of our tegatana. So if it works, we can control ukes center and lead him by kuzushi.
We try to do this in a way which leaves no opportunities to uke to decide wether to follow or not.

Even in ikkyo to gokyo we try not to move uke by the pain in his joints but by the contact we build up by bending ukes joints.

We often work with uke resisting to our techniques because they are designed to work and to move uke even if he doesn't want to.

Quote:
For sure, you can't lift anybody on air with such movement.
This ist a misunderstanding of this way of ukemi: uke ist not at all lifted to the air, but in the contrary his center is led straight down. So he or she has to move around the pivot point of the technique.
To roll forward isn't possible because uke has to turn on the spot. And to roll backward isn't possible because of the kuzushi and the control of uke's center.
… If everything works right …;-)

Quote:
So, the real connection nage-uke doesn't exist
Getting this connection between the centers of nage and uke is the main intention of our practice. Both, Tissier and Endo emphasize this very much. This is the core of our aikido.

Quote:
and the successful throw is only possible when uke jumps by himself.
It will definitely be corrected if uke jumps by himself. Such jumping is considered as a mistake in our aikido. Tissier doesn't like this at all.
He also corrects what he calls "Hollywood ukemi": Doing ukemi for show, moving without necessity.

Beginners, being not flexible enough to receive the techniques may sometimes jump to protect themselves. That happens.
But the more they progress the more they get skilled just to wait wether the technique will move them or not and follow nages leading. Then you can start working ...

For this you have to get flexible hips and relaxed arms. permeable arms we say. I hope it's the right word: We don't do anything with our Arm but letting through the contact between the centers. It's the same as nage.

Quote:
So all these large-motion techniques can be safely received using normal rolls forward or backward.
You said you trained with Christian, didn't you?
I can't realy understand how you then get to this opinion? Normally Christian handles his uke depending to there abilities. I assume you do aikido quite a time and could do good ukemi if necessary. So I don't know, why he left that expression to you and didn't throw you. I am at a loss with this.

Last to say: Here in Europe we are not on the fluffy side of the hill but are considered to be on the more "martial" side of Aikido. Tissier often is not accepted for doing an Aikido which stresses too much the effectiveness of the art.

Please excuse my english. I'm not used to talk or write in english.

Greetings,
Carsten

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 09-04-2008 at 06:59 AM.
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Old 09-04-2008, 09:28 AM   #46
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Super great post Carsten. Thanks for that.
Sincerely,
Jen Smith

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Old 09-04-2008, 10:47 AM   #47
JO
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

I went to Tissier's seminar in Montreal last weekend. Here are my impressions.

It was a good seminar and I enjoyed the training and the somewhat different take on techniques that Tissier has compared to what I am used to.

As far as ukemi goes, the seminar was mostly on basic techniques so we didn't do much big ukemi. Tissier showed some interesting points in terms of positioning. In contrast to some of the comments here, he usually asked the uke to stand strong (not really resistance though since he would ask you to not push or pull).

On the down side, I found that he had a tendency to slowly set up the technique and then go into high speed for the finish. This pulled my wrist on kotegaeshi and my neck in Irimi nage. Not enough to injure, but enough to notice. The only way to avoid this would be to anticipate the throw and "jump". I personnally would have been more impressed if he had kept the slow pace to the end and showed more unbalancing and control of uke thoughout the move rather than have you stand there stable waiting for the finish and then BAM.

When he did demonstrate techniques at higher speed from start to finish, he certainly showed great timing and positioning. The ukes he used were from various Montreal dojos (including friends of Szczepan's, and I suggest he talk to Bob Saad for a more expert opinion of the seminar). Since they weren't "his" ukes, much of the commentary in this thread doesn't really apply.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 09-04-2008, 02:48 PM   #48
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Hi,

Even in ikkyo to gokyo we try not to move uke by the pain in his joints but by the contact we build up by bending ukes joints.
A simple bending uke joints will not create any connection to his center. You have to lock one joint after another and then connect this locked joints together by using kokyu. Then you have you this builded 'stifness' to unbalance uke.
But in your style you are not doing that.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
This ist a misunderstanding of this way of ukemi: uke ist not at all lifted to the air, but in the contrary his center is led straight down. So he or she has to move around the pivot point of the technique.
In other words uke must jump by himself on air. That what I'm saying from the beginning.Uke is creating movement , not nage. And if uke doesn't jump, the joints are severely solicitated - as JO wrote in his impressions from seminar.It means that no leading and no connection really exist between nage and uke.
Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Getting this connection between the centers of nage and uke is the main intention of our practice.

You said you trained with Christian, didn't you?
I can't realy understand how you then get to this opinion? Normally Christian handles his uke depending to there abilities. I assume you do aikido quite a time and could do good ukemi if necessary. So I don't know, why he left that expression to you and didn't throw you. I am at a loss with this.
Look at these comments:

JO wrote: I found that he had a tendency to slowly set up the technique and then go into high speed for the finish. This pulled my wrist on kotegaeshi and my neck in Irimi nage. Not enough to injure, but enough to notice. The only way to avoid this would be to anticipate the throw and "jump".

I think you are even not conscious that this is uke that have to create this connection in your style by jumping on air. And if uke is from other style, and doesn't know his role, connection will not be created by nage.So uke 'jumping' is completely artificial.

Nagababa

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Old 09-04-2008, 02:54 PM   #49
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

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Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
I personnally would have been more impressed if he had kept the slow pace to the end and showed more unbalancing and control of uke thoughout the move rather than have you stand there stable waiting for the finish and then BAM..
That is exactly my opinion too.I had the same feeling from dynamic attack - my center wasn't affected right from the beginning.

Nagababa

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Old 09-04-2008, 04:40 PM   #50
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Hi or

moin as we say here
Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
A simple bending uke joints will not create any connection to his center. You have to lock one joint after another and then connect this locked joints together by using kokyu. Then you have you this builded 'stifness' to unbalance uke.
Stifness just brakes bones. It dosn't connect.
We indeed learn to lock joints and to break bones. But that's not the way which is preferred.
That ist very interresting: Stifness to us is a word which is antipodal to aikido.

Quote:
In other words uke must jump by himself on air.
No. Do you misunderstand me on purpose? (Right words for: You know it better but try to get me off guard?)
Uke is led by nage. Nage does the throw. Uke has the alternative to resist and break bones or neck. Or let oneself go an be led by nage.
Neverever jump by yourself, just let yourself be directed by nage. If your jump doesn't fit with nages technique it may cause injury.

Quote:
And if uke doesn't jump, the joints are severely solicitated - as JO wrote in his impressions from seminar.It means that no leading and no connection really exist between nage and uke.
Does it? Ok, I won't convince you. So may it be.

Quote:
Look at these comments: ... JO wrote: I found that he had a tendency to slowly set up the technique and then go into high speed for the finish. This pulled my wrist on kotegaeshi and my neck in Irimi nage. Not enough to injure, but enough to notice. The only way to avoid this would be to anticipate the throw and "jump".
I am very sorry, but I wrote something about uke who have to jump instead of having the ability of beeing led by nage.
But I admit: This change of speed and timing deserves a lot of practice.
And it should only be done with an uke who knows about the difficulties.

Quote:
I think you are even not conscious that this is uke that have to create this connection in your style by jumping on air.
Big Grin: Here in Germany our style ist a minority so we have to proove often that it works with uke who don't know that they have to create a connection by themselves.

Quote:
And if uke is from other style, and doesn't know his role, connection will not be created by nage.So uke 'jumping' is ompletely artificial.
Problem is: Uke from other style often are not able to give good ukemi and jump by themselves instead of giving in and be lead by nage.

Well okay: You have got your opinion. I won't change it. Are you aware, that you are not only talking about Tissier shihan but also about Endo Shihan and other teachers of hombu dojo? What about them and their "styles"?

It would be interresting for me to see examples of your teachers anD your way of ukemi. Can you describe or perhaps show the difference?

Greetings,
Carsten
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