Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-31-2002, 08:06 PM   #1
Reuben
 
Reuben's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Seishinkan
Location: Kuching
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 111
Malaysia
Offline
Lightbulb Defence against hooks

I haven't found any traditional attacks that come close to resembling the straightforward hook. Some have said it's similiar to dealing with yokomen uchi but I beg to differ. Yokumen uchi involves the striking hand behind the elbow and has the knife edge of the hand as the contact point. With a hook the contact point is the fist and as the name implies it is hooked in so it doesn't seem practical to deal with it in the normal yokomen uchi way. Dealing it as a tsuki doesn't seem appropriate either as the punch is circular and has a wide reach outside the body so it can't be dealt with using the normal entering motion(tenkan?).

So is this a technique that has no traditional methods? I've learnt Aikido for 8 years but have not seen any defences against a hook. I think perhaps the only few ideas that i have in my head are
1. Ducking and then moving outside the blow to do irimi nage or some other similiar technique
2. This is seems a bit dubious and i think would require fiendish timing but is it possible to just step back leading the attack out of its focal point and then entering quickly after the fist of the hook starts to turn into uke's body?

Would appreciate a reply

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2002, 08:19 PM   #2
Largo
Dojo: Aikikai Dobunkan/ Icho Ryu Aikijujutsu
Location: Indiana
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 247
United_States
Offline
Hooks are extremely tough, no matter what art you do. Responses (from what I've seen and done) seem to be either soaking or distancing. Hooks are too short and usually to fast to just "dodge" (note: this is about real hooks...not haymakers). Also, their path makes a lot of traditional blocks or deflections invalid if they are even fast enough to be in the way.
If you ever watch boxers, they soak hooks to the head in their guard position. However, if you aren't wearing gloves, that can hurt you worse than the straight shot.
Body hook soaking is a bit easier...but still, just taking shots ain`t fun.
Naturally, best is not to be in range... to be either too close (move to grappling or elbows) or further back. A muay thai tang (a kind of knee strike...but your upper body shifts back) works sometimes (I've seen it...but never managed to move that quick).
Anyways...not sure if this helps, since these weren't really aikido meathods.

Largo
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2002, 10:04 PM   #3
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
Re: Defence against hooks

Quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
I haven't found any traditional attacks that come close to resembling the straightforward hook. Some have said it's similiar to dealing with yokomen uchi but I beg to differ. Yokumen uchi involves the striking hand behind the elbow and has the knife edge of the hand as the contact point. With a hook the contact point is the fist and as the name implies it is hooked in so it doesn't seem practical to deal with it in the normal yokomen uchi way. Dealing it as a tsuki doesn't seem appropriate either as the punch is circular and has a wide reach outside the body so it can't be dealt with using the normal entering motion(tenkan?).

So is this a technique that has no traditional methods? I've learnt Aikido for 8 years but have not seen any defences against a hook. I think perhaps the only few ideas that i have in my head are
1. Ducking and then moving outside the blow to do irimi nage or some other similiar technique
2. This is seems a bit dubious and i think would require fiendish timing but is it possible to just step back leading the attack out of its focal point and then entering quickly after the fist of the hook starts to turn into uke's body?

Would appreciate a reply

Senshido tapes (www.senshido.com) have excellent demonstrations on defenses against all kinds of attacks (TUC set 1).

They involve closing your center or opening up, jamming, depending on the nature of the punch. Very interesting/realistic stuff.

The instructor doesn't take double-takes, he doesn't always go slow, but sometimes realtime, and he just DOES it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2002, 11:50 PM   #4
Reuben
 
Reuben's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Seishinkan
Location: Kuching
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 111
Malaysia
Offline
Although I appreciate techniques from other martial arts outside Aikido, I really want to be proven wrong about Aikido being unable to deal with hooks. Anything that doesn't require direct strikes or injuring the other opponent would be good with the fluidity that is so characteristic of Aikido.

Besides I'm just a student and can't afford tapes such as those with my current budget. And I don't have a credit card. Senshido seems effective enough from the pictures i've seen but they too closely resemble street fighting for my liking(i'm not saying it's not effective i'm just saying it's not in my taste). Kneeing groins seem totally against my philosophy of self defence.

It is impossible that samurai had nothing against any tom dick and harry's hook? I don't believe i'm the first to have thought of this and it is rather absurd if a well established art such as Aikido was found to be incomplete?

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 12:04 AM   #5
guest1234
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 915
Offline
I'm thinking a good place to figure out a way is on the mat with a study buddy, or if all else fails, a sempai or sensei...

the options you first mentioned sound to me like what we are taught to do to yokomen and tsuki, or to a roundhouse if the teacher is feeling more like dragging the attack into 20th century attack terms... but that is how I interpret it, anyway...ask anyone who knows me, I'm terrible at punches (I have been accused of hitting like a girl, though usually not more than once by the same partner)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 12:05 AM   #6
Andy
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 96
Offline
Maai & irimi.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 12:36 AM   #7
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
Kneeing groins seem totally against my philosophy of self defence.

It is impossible that samurai had nothing against any tom dick and harry's hook? I don't believe i'm the first to have thought of this and it is rather absurd if a well established art such as Aikido was found to be incomplete?
Attacker: Hey Reuben, I'm about to attack you.
Reuben: Okay sir but please no kneeing in the groin. Or ripping off my ears. Or hair grabbing. Or eye-gouging.
Attacker: Okay, if you say so sir.
Reuben: How kind of you, Attacker. Also, no hitting, please.
Attacker: How about a round of chess ?
Reuben: I'm game ! (gets socked in the head)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 12:46 AM   #8
guest1234
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 915
Offline
My main concern with kneeing groins, is, well, er , it is a rather smallish target. Sorry

When I went away to college, my brother, a SAC in the FBI at the time, offered to teach me self defense. 'OH BOY, OH BOY' I thought, jumping at the chance to learn really neat things. He taught me to fake a faint, step on the instep, and run like hell screaming "FIRE". He especially cautioned against going for the groin, pointing out difficulting in hitting a moving target often higher than a short person effectively reaches, and that should I miss, my intent would be clear and would only make him less happy with me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 05:23 AM   #9
unsound000
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 72
Offline
Re: Defence against hooks

I've taken some boxing and I'm taking jujitsu. YOu have two options with a hook. Bob and weave or hug the bastard. Both worked for Ali and are non-violent. Hugging a boxer really tightly and not letting go tends to confuse them. A hook is a very short range punch. It can't be thrown from a distance so you will know that the guy is coming at you but you won't see the punch til it's too late. If someone comes at you like this, either back away or get ready to make a new friend with hugging (boxers like to say "clinch" cuz it's more manly). I know you may want a throw but it's not going to happen with this punch.

Quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
I haven't found any traditional attacks that come close to resembling the straightforward hook. Some have said it's similiar to dealing with yokomen uchi but I beg to differ. Yokumen uchi involves the striking hand behind the elbow and has the knife edge of the hand as the contact point. With a hook the contact point is the fist and as the name implies it is hooked in so it doesn't seem practical to deal with it in the normal yokomen uchi way. Dealing it as a tsuki doesn't seem appropriate either as the punch is circular and has a wide reach outside the body so it can't be dealt with using the normal entering motion(tenkan?).

So is this a technique that has no traditional methods? I've learnt Aikido for 8 years but have not seen any defences against a hook. I think perhaps the only few ideas that i have in my head are
1. Ducking and then moving outside the blow to do irimi nage or some other similiar technique
2. This is seems a bit dubious and i think would require fiendish timing but is it possible to just step back leading the attack out of its focal point and then entering quickly after the fist of the hook starts to turn into uke's body?

Would appreciate a reply

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 06:38 AM   #10
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Eek! Sad...

Hi Reuben,

I'm sorry to see that you've been doing Aikido for 8 years and have never come across a realistic response for a hook.

It's also kinda sad to see that no one could provide a good Aikido response either.

One possibility (which works under resistance) is to enter inside the arc of the punch and, turning with the punch, break the attacker's balance downward in a circle.

At the point of breaking balance, reverse the direction of a punch by utilising ikkyo or nikkyo with a strong pivot of your hips and a large swing of your arms across the attacker's body. At this point you have the person in an ikkyo or nikkyo lock, bent over, head pointing to the ground. What happens next is up to you - takedown, throw, pin - your choice.

Another example (which also works with a resisting attacker) is a powerful irimi to get you inside the arc of the punch. Atemi to the face on entry (making the attacker run into your hand almost) and then do shihonage from the inside.

Basically, what Andy said also is very true - maai and irimi.

I'll try to get pictures to show you what I mean. Words just don't do justice to explain techniques like this one. But I hope this is of some value to you.

Masakatsu Agatsu
L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 07:16 AM   #11
Ghost Fox
Dojo: Jikishinkan Dojo
Location: New York City (Brooklyn)
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 219
Offline
Re: Re: Defence against hooks

Quote:
Originally posted by unsound000
Hugging a boxer really tightly and not letting go tends to confuse them. A hook is a very short range punch. It can't be thrown from a distance so you will know that the guy is coming at you but you won't see the punch til it's too late. If someone comes at you like this, either back away or get ready to make a new friend with hugging (boxers like to say "clinch" cuz it's more manly). I know you may want a throw but it's not going to happen with this punch.

I don't know if this is aikido, but I did it during Jiyu waza (free technique) and the Yudansha seemed to approve.

You step into clinch and cover the distance fast. You hug your uke slipping your arms under his. Pivot keeping hara to hara contact and sacrifice throw. Both of you will end up on the ground with nage lying on top of uke.

I've seen it done in jujitsu, and Graeco Roman Wrestling. It's feels almost like a hip throw. It catches most people by surprise, but you have to be really committed to entering.

****************
Quote:
Originally posted by Aleksey Sundeyev


Attacker: Hey Reuben, I'm about to attack you.
Reuben: Okay sir but please no kneeing in the groin. Or
ripping off my ears. Or hair grabbing. Or eye-gouging.
Attacker: Okay, if you say so sir.
Reuben: How kind of you, Attacker. Also, no hitting, please.
Attacker: How about a round of chess ?
Reuben: I'm game ! (gets socked in the head)

Now thats funny
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 07:28 AM   #12
Reuben
 
Reuben's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Seishinkan
Location: Kuching
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 111
Malaysia
Offline
Haha when i mean i don't like groin kicks it means I don't want to do it to other ppl. Not that i want to receive it either haha but u know what i mean. I appreciate the sarcasm :roll eyes:

Quote from L. Camejo
One possibility (which works under resistance) is to enter inside the arc of the punch and, turning with the punch, break the attacker's balance downward in a circle.
End quote

So u mean the entering is like yokomen? But doesn't the hook end up hooking inwards so how do you actually enter inside a closed arc?
I look forward to seeing images of this as i find it tough to imagine it. As you said words don't do it justice.

As with Maai and Irimi it seems quite a plausible defence which was something like the 2nd alternative which i mentioned or is it somehow different? So distance wait till the focal point of the punch has been passed, move in quickly then irimi? Correct me if I'm wrong!

Ghost Fox: How about against multiple attackers? Wouldn't the falling on the ground make you vulnerable?

Btw, thank you for all your replies and keep them coming!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 10:49 AM   #13
bcole23
Dojo: Eagle Rock Aikido, Ammon, ID
Location: Ammon, ID
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 120
United_States
Offline
diff between hook and haymaker

(please excuse glaring errors and paraphrasing, just read meaning :P)

Haymaker:
other wise known as wild stupid punch from way outside.

Hook:
Mean nasty punch.

Boxers are very centered, very quick, and don't want to kill you with one strike. From the Budo of Japan, you were supposed to strike with the upmost intent on killing your oppenent. Boxers will tag you with punches so quick, you can barely see them. That just stuns you so they can lay you out. They use feints, body movement, and even maai.
I think most people miss the point of Aikido. If you look at it from the point of fighting, then you can go no further than simply doing technique. Find the budo. Learn to control, not just uke, but everything. That includes the environment, uke, yourself, etc.
There are a myriad of responses to this punch. It depends on so many factors.. What is the proper technique to use against a hook? Punch him in the nose! Nobody got killed right?

.
.
.
<digression>
I really get the feeling that 90% of the people in Aikido have never been in a real fight where someone is trying to get you no matter what.
I had a friend in high school that was relatively small, about 5'6' 120lbs. But he was so good at fighting, he'd hit you about 10 times before you could get anywhere near him.
</digression>

NOTE on post from above.
Since when did self defense mean that one cannot harm their attacker? In a perfect world, I can do Aikido just as well as Osensei. But I can't. If the attacker is more proficient than me and I can't get away etc..etc.. then I can use everything in my ability to resolve the situation. I'm not going to get killed trying to hold onto ideals that I'm unable to enact in the real world yet, but I'll do my best.

また今"x、
ブラ"ド"
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 11:03 AM   #14
lt-rentaroo
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 237
Offline
Hello,

I recommend Tenchinage. Here's how you do it. If hook punch is with right hand, you enter towards uke's right side, using your left hand to "cut down" against the hook punch. At the same time, you deliver atemi to uke's forehead, nose, or chin with your right hand (open palm). The initial "cut down" with your left hand will unbalance uke, the atemi combined with the final Tenchinage movement to the left will plop uke on his backside. This works equally well if uke delivers a right and left hook punch in rapid succession.

I've done it, it works. Nothing fancy about it, just simple body positioning and balance taking.

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 12:20 PM   #15
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
Re: diff between hook and haymaker

Quote:
Originally posted by bcole23

<digression>
I really get the feeling that 90% of the people in Aikido have never been in a real fight where someone is trying to get you no matter what.
I had a friend in high school that was relatively small, about 5'6' 120lbs. But he was so good at fighting, he'd hit you about 10 times before you could get anywhere near him.
</digression>

Ah-ha ! Precisely.
I've had a few of these encounters, which usually ended up in me having a brand new blackeye.
What didn't occur to me at the time is that I for some reason thought that I was BOUND to strike back.

I wonder what would happen if I just maintained distance thus forcing either a dedicated strike or no strike at all.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 12:51 PM   #16
[Censored]
 
[Censored]'s Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 119
Offline
Although I appreciate techniques from other martial arts outside Aikido, I really want to be proven wrong about Aikido being unable to deal with hooks. Anything that doesn't require direct strikes or injuring the other opponent would be good with the fluidity that is so characteristic of Aikido.

You want stop an attacker, without injuring them? Let them hit you until they get bored, then buy them an ice cream cone.

Let me suggest an alternative. Meet a tight hook with a tighter hook, and meet a tighter hook with a straight.

It is impossible that samurai had nothing against any tom dick and harry's hook? I don't believe i'm the first to have thought of this and it is rather absurd if a well established art such as Aikido was found to be incomplete?

Aikido is 70 years old. Rest assured the samurai did not use it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 01:57 PM   #17
guest1234
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 915
Offline
OK, I'll admit to being slow, and not really knowing anything about boxing... so I did at least try to watch a little in a movie, and I better understand (I think) what several are saying about maai...

For an effective hook (or any other move, for that matter?) it does look like a boxer needs to be standing a lot closer than I'd want someone to be near me unless we were on friendly terms.I mean, goodness, to stand that close to someone kind of implies wanting to hit or be hit (or both) I would think.

Or he needs to step in to close the gap and then hit me... so isn't the way to work with that either keeping a good distance to start with, or move (in, around, whatever) with the movement he must make to close the distance, not waiting for the hook? wouldn't waiting for the hook kind of be like standing in place for the shomen strike in shomenuchi ikkyo?

I think the distance we usually keep in training wouldn't work if you wanted to actually box, a boxer would keep trying to close the distance and we would keep trying to increase it. Or at least they looked a lot closer to me. Of course, movie boxing is probably no more real than movie Aikido...
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 03:17 PM   #18
bcole23
Dojo: Eagle Rock Aikido, Ammon, ID
Location: Ammon, ID
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 120
United_States
Offline
Any good fighter or MA (if properly angry at you) will chase you down if you run, try to back you into corners or against walls, and generally try to get you in a bad way while keeping themselves safe. The best technique as always is 話わざ (hanashi waza) or speaking techniques.

Barring that, the ability to give an opening to your attacker that you can take advantage of is a skill that should be developed. The Book of Five Rings by Musashi extrapolates this idea very well. These are the tactics and strategies of combat that many Aikidoka (or Taekwondoka etc) don't even think of until after they get their black belt.

In MA, you get your black belt when you have learned the basics of the art. So when you get your black belt, you are really a beginner. Aikido is just so different and deep, that it takes years to learn the basics. Learning the multitude of variances of power, speed, intent, environment, height, arm/leg length, footing, price of rice in China, and other things is what takes so long in learning Aikido.

But your question is what is the proper technique for defending against a hook. Maybe go to your sensei and ask what is the proper way to blend? After you've harmonized, technique will naturally flow from there.

So, how would I blend with a hook? Use timing and distance, then enter. Be like light spilling into a room through just a crack in the door.

Then buy your attacker ice cream. Some of my best friends are the ones I've had fights with.

気をつけって!
ブラ"ド"
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 03:28 PM   #19
bcole23
Dojo: Eagle Rock Aikido, Ammon, ID
Location: Ammon, ID
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 120
United_States
Offline
BTW, you'd definitely be suprised at how fast a boxer can close on you and how far away they can hit you from.

and..
アイスクリムをとてもおいしいね!?
私は全"食べるしまっただろう!

(I hope that says:
Ice cream is delicious eh!?
I'll suppose I'll eat it all.)

Brandon
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 03:33 PM   #20
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by bcole23
アイスクリムをとてもおいしいね!?
私は全"食べるしまっただろう!

(I hope that says:
Ice cream is delicious eh!?
I'll suppose I'll eat it all.)
Let me just say this -

アイス とても, ただろう! ヒ!? ヘ全"食,
驍オ とても .
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 03:48 PM   #21
bcole23
Dojo: Eagle Rock Aikido, Ammon, ID
Location: Ammon, ID
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 120
United_States
Offline
<B>
アイス とても, ただろう! ヒ!? ヘ全"食,
驍オ・とても </B>

"--{語が勉強しますの好きです。

I didn't quite get your post..
<romaji>
aisu ??temo, ta darou! hi!?
Zenbu tabe takeshi ??temo
</romaji>
I think I might be using the wrong encoding on my browser cuz some of your characters turn up a little weird.

You gotta give me some help here..

( hi in katakana??)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 04:34 PM   #22
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by bcole23

I think I might be using the wrong encoding on my browser cuz some of your characters turn up a little weird.

You gotta give me some help here..
Sorry, I simply copy-pasted some of your characters in random order

By the way they look like garbage on systems with no Japanese language support installed.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 04:57 PM   #23
bcole23
Dojo: Eagle Rock Aikido, Ammon, ID
Location: Ammon, ID
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 120
United_States
Offline
Yeah people who type in Japanese are annoying, I know..

However, to keep on topic.

How to defend against hooks.

Don't stand behind your buddy when he's fishing.

er..

UKE: throws right hook
Nage: steps to the right while turning 45 deg. and draws (not grab) punch while atemi to the head thus throwing uke.

Check out some video of Inoue Sensei. He's got some vids that will show you just what you're looking for I believe.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 05:08 PM   #24
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by bcole23

How to defend against hooks.

Don't stand behind your buddy when he's fishing.
Attached Images
 
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2002, 05:23 PM   #25
bcole23
Dojo: Eagle Rock Aikido, Ammon, ID
Location: Ammon, ID
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 120
United_States
Offline
You'll notice in this picture the perfect body positioning, the extension, the living calmness..
You'll also see the opposite.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	fly9.jpg
Views:	232
Size:	34.3 KB
ID:	30  
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido, defence, and tactics DaveO General 6 07-24-2010 10:54 AM
Self defence vs fights Ta Kung General 32 05-21-2003 10:00 PM
Verbal Self defence bob_stra General 6 10-12-2002 09:16 AM
Aikido as Street Defence, Part 2 DaveO Training 13 09-30-2002 08:31 AM
Legal Aspects of Self Defence DaveO General 3 09-11-2002 06:50 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:01 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate