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Old 02-05-2002, 10:00 AM   #51
Thalib
 
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Lightbulb Applicative techniques (2 of 3)

Shomen and uppercut, even though opposite in motion, they go through the same path. Tsuki, jab, or straight may have different targets or purpose in attack, but all of them cuts through the centerline.

Yokomen and hook, it's like the difference between the shomen and uppercut. A hook goes upward or straight from the sides, but the target is still the same and the path it takes is still from the sides towards the center.

The centerline here is the attacker's target, the point of explosive impact, the strongest portion of the attack. The two things that are usually done is either cut the attack while it's still at its infancy or make the target disappear. This contributes to the ura and omote of the waza.

Of course basic techniques may not apply to other-than-basic-attacks, but if it is understood why the technique was done the way it was done (understanding the principles), the answer will come naturally.

In the dojo I train, the following are principles that are used for other attacks:
Shomen-
uppercut, axe kick (balchagi in TKD), hitting people over the head with a bottle (or with any object)
Yokomen-
hook, roundhouse kick, hitting people over the head with a bottle (or with any object)
Tsuki-
straight, jab, front kick (mae geri)
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Old 02-05-2002, 10:07 AM   #52
Andy
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Re: Applicative techniques (1 of 3)

Quote:
Originally posted by Thalib
Tsuki in aikido is always towards the hara (abdomen)
Maybe in your own limited version of aikido...
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Old 02-05-2002, 10:18 AM   #53
Thalib
 
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Applicative techniques (3 of 3)

The importance of learning these applicative techniques came out of necessity. My sensei have to deal with a bunch of soldiers that are very skeptic and asks a lot of what-ifs.

Of course the techniques can't be shown nor told through these posts. The only way is if we only could train together. But it involves in understanding in the principles of the attack.

All those hitting attacks, no matter how fancy or elaborate they are, have one principle in common, they have a target that they want to hit. Without this target, they will be hitting emptiness and you have nothing to fear.

Other applicative techniques that we learn in the dojo involves being threatened with a knife while standing up or sitting down (in a bus) around the abdominal or the neck area while being restricted (being held by another person, hand hold, or collar hold).

This also arrive from the necessity that public transport in my country isn't safe. And that knife to the throat is usually also substituted with a sickle (like in the sickle and hammer flag). And a sickle, although far apart than a knife, still have a sharp edge that needs to meet it's target.

Other applicative techniques that we learn also involves getting out of choke-holds, wrestling/jujutsu/judo style tackle, arm-bar, and many other grappling attacks.

Last edited by Thalib : 02-05-2002 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 02-05-2002, 10:24 AM   #54
Thalib
 
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Re: Re: Applicative techniques (1 of 3)

Quote:
Originally posted by Andy

Maybe in your own limited version of aikido...
I was only referring to the basics. Of course it is sometimes specified that it is "hara-tsuki". There are "jodan-tsuki" (upper area), "gedan-tsuki" (lower area), and there are also "shomen-tsuki" and "yokomen-tsuki".

Tsuku, the verb, means to stab. Tsuki is the noun. Of course the attack tsuki could go anywhere, could even go where the sun don't shine.

I hope, Russo-san, you have read the rest of my post (as you see it is part 1 of 3), before you make any assumptions of the version of Aikido I am learning.

Last edited by Thalib : 02-05-2002 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 02-05-2002, 11:19 AM   #55
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Re: Re: Re: Applicative techniques (1 of 3)

Quote:
Originally posted by Thalib
Tsuku, the verb, means to stab.
Actually, the verb "to stab" in Japanese would more be "sasu." Although the verb "tsuku" can refer to a stabbing motion, it's more directly translated as "to thrust" in my mind.

-- Jun

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Old 02-05-2002, 11:46 AM   #56
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Smile doumo arigatou gozaimasu...

Thank you Akiyama-san on enlightening me on that subject. "Thrust", that is a good explanation.

douzo yoroshiku onegaitashimasu
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Old 02-06-2002, 12:57 PM   #57
Jem8472
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Hello all, good thread you have here. I have decided to post a couple of URL's which are from an Aikido site for the club I train at.

The main site address is
www.aikido-dynamic.co.uk

A couple of videos which have a hook attack in them, they are:
http://www.aikido-dynamic.co.uk/Vide...es/strike2.htm

and:
http://www.aikido-dynamic.co.uk/Vide...es/strike3.htm

My sensei is into defending against all types off attack, not just the traditional Aikido. If it is to be used now then it has to be adapted to be able to defend against new fighting strikes. (Hope that makes sence)

Jeremy
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Old 02-06-2002, 08:26 PM   #58
jk
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Gee Thalib, I thought you were just going to say: "Grab a barstool and hit him with it."

Actually, Thalib's dojo seems to do much the same thing we did in hapkido, way back when...it was a lot of fun, and quite useful.

One caveat though...there is a difference between a hook thrown (by me, for example) in regular practice, and a hook thrown by an experienced boxer. Likewise, there is a difference between learning how to defend against a knife in the dojo, and receiving a knife attack from a well-trained blade fighter. Try not to let your training against "realistic" attacks in the dojo, useful as it is, lull you into a false sense of confidence. It's a big bad world out there, and s**t does indeed happen...

Regards,
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Old 02-09-2002, 11:56 AM   #59
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How true...

Very true...

That's why we're really appreciative of people that have taken previous martial arts in our dojo.

Sometimes I feel bad when we have to practice with kicking techniques and we have people that have the slightest idea on how to do a simple kick...

Most people in our dojo are mostly from TKD, then Karate and Pencak Silat, and some Kung Fu.
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Old 02-09-2002, 10:34 PM   #60
Edward
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In my understanding, you can never use Aikido techniques as taught in the dojo in a real fight. If you think how to defend myself in such or such situation, you will loose beforehand. Concentrating to master the basics is the best way. In a real situation, if you really assimilated the basics (I haven't yet), you will keep an "empty" mind when facing the attacker, not anticipating any specific techniques, and your body will know what to do and how to respond, even if the attacks were not similar to the ones practiced in the dojo.

Cheers,
Edward
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Old 02-18-2002, 08:04 PM   #61
Reuben
 
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Wise thoughts Edward. That's what my Sensei said too. Told me not to worry about it but sometimes I just feel kinda impatient.

You want something to be effective immediately and stuff like that but i guess if Aikido was the chosen martial art of my choice, I shouldn't be looking for that.

Btw Jeremy, thanks a lot for the links. Kinda confirmed that what i thought of was right and when I asked my Sensei he did something similiar though with slight variations as in the depth of the entering but i guess that's all just subjective.

And sorry for the late reply...Been pretty under the weather lately...

Does Aikido protect against the flu?
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Old 02-18-2002, 08:23 PM   #62
shihonage
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Steven Seagal's "Path beyond thought" tape shows his no-nonsense defenses against punches and kicks.

He teaches that in class, and its great.
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Old 02-19-2002, 08:29 AM   #63
RobTrim
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hooks.....

No disrespect to Jem8472 or your dojo, but those clips show what i would more acurately describe as 'Haymakers'. Where as a 'hook' would be a lot tighter in form and involve a much closer Ma-ai.

I've been looking at this hook defence for a whilt too, and I do think the kind of outside blend with the arms as shown in those clips is quite close to something I'd do.

I do think REALLY drilling these kinds of attacks are very benificial to more realistic self defence (if that's what you're after) but could probably be classed as quite advanced techniques. The reason for this is that a good foot and fist man - as we are all aware - will not lunge, or over-commit himself to a single attack but rather use set-up shots, feints and deception to close in for 'more powerful' strikes.

Basic kihon level Aikido usually will start with much more static exercises and Uke's throwing a lot of commitment into strikes to approximate Nage/tori performing a successful blend. There is nothing wrong with this, as - if done correctly - it will show where Uke's body and limbs will end up if they were going full speed and had just been 'Aikido'd'!

This does however show the perceived difficulty us junior grades see when confronted by a good, relentless, skillful 'boxer' (Using that term as a catch-all for people that REALLY know how to use their fists) who does not over-extend or 'sell' their punches.

Regardless of the advanced nature of these defences, I can see the value in practicing defences against 'neater' punches like hooks and uppercuts - even at slow to meduim speed - to get the feel of where te-sabaki (I thinks that's hand movements) and atemi could come into play in order to assist the blending process.

Rob.
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Old 02-28-2002, 01:58 PM   #64
Lyle Bogin
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I think the biggest danger is not in any single punch but in combinations. The rule of combinations is that you need to be in range. You can miss once and recover...but there is no logic in throwing a series of punches if the person remains beyond your range. So, to eliminate the danger of combinations, it may be best to stay out of range. The striker must now try to reach for you. It is at this point the application if techniques that rely on commitment make more sense.

Also, I belive you can slip irimi techniques like slipping punches. A slip is an attack that travels back up along the line of your opponents attack, which lands due to dominant position, reach, and/or speed. Should it not be possible to apply the concept of slipping to irimi? Are slipping and irimi the same thing?

Has anyone ever tried a roll and hook? It is when you roll (as in bend your body forward and to the side) under your opponents hook and strike him as you come back up and into your centered stance. I believe kokyunage could be performed in a similar manner.

As for an uppercut, well they are very hard to deal with, but they are also a bit hard to throw. They come up the middle, and a nice tenkan should be able to help you gain superior position. In boxing they can be avoided with a lean back but in kickboxing that sets you up for a knockout roundhouse, so you have to learn to roll it off with a tight tenkan like movement so that it misses you and grazes your arms. Catching the crook of someones arm is hard to do, since the upper cut really comes from the legs.

In a sparring match punches tend to be measured and a lot more difficult for an aikido person to get their techniques around. But in a brawl, most folk like to go for the big swing, even if it a good clean swing, because their blood is up.

I agree with those who believe a tight lead hook is the most dangerous punch. I have been knocked down by it and have used it to great effect, particularly after taking my opponents vision/attention with a right/left cross. I look forward to experiment with aiki defenses when my skills improve, but for now a cover and counter will have to do.

Just some thoughts from a kickboxer turned aikidoka.
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Old 03-03-2002, 05:22 AM   #65
Reuben
 
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Damn i don't really understand the slipping part.

Regarding the roll and a hook yeah i did something similiar in jujitsu and i also did a roll and a kick. Though usually I just dealt with it by distancing or entering to the side.(don't think u can change direction when u're rolling). The jujitsu sensei scolded me for chickening out but i didn't really care.

A little story to go with this.
I was but a white belt and the sensei knew i already held a black belt in aikido. He then wanted to spar with me for some reason and insisted that i used his 'jujitsu' techniques. That was just plain unfair but i think he lost quite a lot of face when i kept on doing 'chicken' techniques like hit and run boxing little jabs and little kicks to his knee. Then i moved in and hooked and got him in the jaw(he claims to teach a street style jujitsu so he incorporates all these punches). And it was bleeding i immediately said sorry and he kinda scolded me but then after that he just played dirty. He was like scolding me and talking to the students about how u shouldn't hit the face blah blah blah and then when i let my guard down he did a slap kick to my knee. The idiot! That's why i quit jujitsu(not that i'm saying jujitsu is bad but just the teacher). If my sensei is so dirty i'm not going to bother learning from him.

Regarding ur kickboxing training i was just wondering, did u find the transition to Aikido difficult? Did u have to unlearn your principles such as no direct blocks and things like that? I know a lot of ppl who find the movements of Aikido totally alien to them and they struggle especially if they do things like taekwando. I found the form of jujitsu and hapkido i learnt a bit difficult to adapt though of course there were similiarities but my problem was reversed(aikido to another martial art). My free sparring problem always remained the same, I always jabbed and probed and then kinda avoided their attacks until they got annoyed since i was unable to use any Aikido techniques. My sister learnt shotokan karate and she too found it strange to blend into the attack when she started Aikido.

I still remember my jujitsu sensei screaming, 'come and attack me!' and i was like 'why don't u attack me?". unpleasant experience.

Just wanted to know ur thoughts on this.
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Old 03-03-2002, 05:27 AM   #66
Reuben
 
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Thalib:
Oh and where would a slap kick go under ur classification?

It seems logical to enter outside.
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Old 03-03-2002, 07:55 AM   #67
Bruce Baker
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defend against hook punch?

I have read many of the responses to this topic, and it comes down to deflect, interrupt, or neutralize.

Deflect involves learning to move your hands faster than the person throwing the punch. One method is the whip. You learn to throw your hand out like a whip, and pull it back even quicker, and quicker. Speed training, this is sometimes found in stories of those older sensei's who knew Bruce Lee and tell stories to our third generation of MA.

Interrupt. You can't move as fast as the hook, so you use the scared reflex to move your body, also known as training to get the hell out of the way! If your training in Aikido teaches you anything, it is to react when violent motion comes your way. The timing of reaction in your training should be aimed at automatic responses that do not involve thought. Being of the old school, I usually take the first punch, which activates the fear factor, switching into anger, then to please God don't let me kill this stupid bastard. At that point, even the fastest punches slow to visible angle and direction. Adrenelin is an amazing equalizer!

Neutralize. That could be as easy as not fighting, getting in gear with the fear/flight instinct, or as others have expressed ... go inside, go outside, or hitting the knee/ inner leg to give your suri ashi training chance to work. Did you ever try to punch someone under your waist level? Kicking usually comes to mind, but if hit inside of the inner thigh, or correct angle to the knee, you find you have entered into Don Draeger's basic defense technique, one of Budo's classic writers.

Your attitude of passiveness will almost always keep you out of these situations, but when it happens ... please don't do a spinning heel kick and almost kill the guy like one of my highschool students who was blindsided by a hook from the rear?

Lastly, raise the bokken and face the foe. My first teachers son in law was training to be a Navy Seal. We were trying to neutralize a knife attack with blade out against the forearm being waved in an infinity/figure eight. The only way to directly protect/ interrupt was to raise the bokken, or lower the bokken. Hitting the top of the arm tightens the hand, hitting the bottom opens the hand, dropping the knife. This method of kife attack also resembles a hook punch, so raising the Bokken is preferred, which also numbs the forearm.

There a numerous speed exercises, sticky hands to train hand and eye coordination, but sooner or later ... you will take a punch. How you respond is the important thing ... without anger, or violence in your mind.

Now ... take all the advice, recommendations ... and see if you can apply it to your Aikido training? That is what you were looking for? Wasn't it?

Talk to your teacher about this, see if he/she has other ways to help your training.
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Old 03-03-2002, 04:03 PM   #68
Thalib
 
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Question hmmm...

Quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
Thalib:
Oh and where would a slap kick go under ur classification?

It seems logical to enter outside.
Your meaning of a slap kick is the one that you hit the side of the opponent on the side right. The movement is from the outside towards the inside. If I get the meaning correctly, then it is similar to yokomen uchi (side attack).

- yokomen -
Attack comes from the outside towards the center. Naturally will hit the side of the target, if face to face with the target; could hit the front if passing through the side of the target.

- shomen -
Attacking the center directly by downward/upward movement. Naturally will hit the top/underside of the target.

- tsuki -
Thrusting attack. Attacking the target by going forward/backward motion. Naturally will hit the target inline with the attack.
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Old 03-05-2002, 08:45 AM   #69
Lyle Bogin
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"Regarding ur kickboxing training i was just wondering, did u find the transition to Aikido difficult?"

The hardest part was not the physical techniques. It was realizing the meaning of practice and learning to extend and relax.

I think that problems transitioning from one style to another are not exeactly what they seem to be. The real problem, IMO, comes from thinking that because you hade some expertise in one style, you should automatically have it in another. You are really just another beginner. I don't think any of the beginners are thinking something like "boy it's really hard to adapt my raquetball game to these aikido techniques". It's new, it's dissimilar, so it's hard.

"Did u have to unlearn your principles such as no direct blocks and things like that?"

No. You never need to unlearn something. Only to have the mind of a beginner when approaching new things. If you "unlearn", then how can you apply the wonderful things you already know to make you new skills that much better?
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Old 03-05-2002, 04:04 PM   #70
Thalib
 
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Thumbs down I like that

That's a very good term, "mind of a beginner". Always willing learning, never arrogant and always think to be humble.

It is true, because when you think you know everything, that's when you start not knowing anything anymore, stop learning. My sensei always give us this lecture. It is easier said then done, because by my standards, I am pretty arrogant.

But what I like is that I am always reminded of this one way or another. When my head isso high up that it is on cloud number nine, there is always an incident that brings me back down to earth.
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Old 03-06-2002, 08:24 AM   #71
Brian H
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Use ki in a can

pepper spray
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Old 03-06-2002, 10:00 AM   #72
Lyle Bogin
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Pepper spray work well, unless ofcourse the wind blows the wrong way.
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Old 03-07-2002, 03:58 AM   #73
Jim ashby
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Pepper spray is a good idea. Unfortunately illegal in the UK.
Ahh well.
Have fun.

Vir Obesus Stola Saeptus
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Old 03-07-2002, 05:31 AM   #74
Abasan
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Nothing is more scary then attempting to spray that pepper spray... only to find it has lost all of its pressure... piffle... puff puff.

Fire extinguishers comes to mind too...

I'm not recommending spitting your way out of a fire... but at least with some solid techniques in your head, you might get out of the first situation, alive.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 03-07-2002, 05:56 AM   #75
Ghost Fox
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jim ashby
Pepper spray is a good idea. Unfortunately illegal in the UK.
Ahh well.
Have fun.
Its only illegal if you get caught.
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