Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-06-2008, 08:12 AM   #1
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

I thought that there had been other posts about the core techniques in aikido. I did a quick search and couldn't find them to use as a reference. I'm pretty sure they're out there, though.

But, I wondered what people thought were the core techniques of their aikido and more importantly, why? Secondarily, why do you think they would be important from Ueshiba's point of view?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 08:48 AM   #2
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,909
Spain
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
But, I wondered what people thought were the core techniques of their aikido and more importantly, why? Secondarily, why do you think they would be important from Ueshiba's point of view?
For me: Ikkyo, Irimi Nage, Shiho Nage and Tenchi Nage... in no particular order. Why? Everything you need is there.

For Ueshiba: I don't have idea.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 08-06-2008 at 08:58 AM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 09:04 AM   #3
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
For me: Ikkyo, Irimi Nage, Shiho Nage and Tenchi Nage... in no particular order. Why? Everything you need is there.
Hello Demetrio,

When you say everything you need, can you explain that a little more? I don't understand what you mean.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
For Ueshiba: I don't have idea.
Yeah, I can understand that answer. I think a lot of people spend time trying to understand what Ueshiba did and why. Maybe someone will post their opinion, though.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 09:19 AM   #4
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,909
Spain
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

More or less:

Ikkyo: For learning how to take uke's center and power generation.
Irimi nage: For learning how to enter without fear.
Shiho nage: For learning hot to spin without losing your own balance while keeping uke unbalanced.
Tenchi nage: For learning how to maintain opposite tension.

BTW. I'm also trying to understand Ueshiba, but it's still a work in progress so better keep things to myself

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 08-06-2008 at 09:22 AM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 09:27 AM   #5
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 530
United_States
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

Mark,

You are asking someone to post the Aikido's Gokui?

Allen

~ Allen Beebe
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 09:31 AM   #6
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,909
Spain
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

A bit late

http://books.google.es/books?id=_SX2...ient=firefox-a

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 09:36 AM   #7
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Mark,

You are asking someone to post the Aikido's Gokui?

Allen
Hi Allen,

No. Just wondered what people thought of their syllabus, what techniques they deemed "core", and why. There's such a difference in syllabus throughout, but yet, there's also a similarity.

I wouldn't be surprised to find ikkyo listed many times. After all, it's seen throughout aikido. But why is it a core technique ... for each individual person?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 10:31 AM   #8
Garth Jones
Dojo: Allegheny Aikido
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 143
United_States
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

In the two volume 'Best Aikido' by the current and former Doshus they divide techniques into 'fundamental,' 'basic,' and 'advanced.' They have a good explanation of why they make those distinctions.

Cheers,
Garth
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 10:59 AM   #9
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

Quote:
Garth Jones wrote: View Post
In the two volume 'Best Aikido' by the current and former Doshus they divide techniques into 'fundamental,' 'basic,' and 'advanced.' They have a good explanation of why they make those distinctions.

Cheers,
Garth
Hi Garth,

Thanks! I don't have either volume. I recently ordered Aikido Shugyo and Takemusu Aiki. So, Best Aikido will have to get added to the to-be-purchased list. The book fund only goes so far.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 10:59 AM   #10
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,536
United_States
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
... I wondered what people thought were the core techniques of their aikido
Aiki Taiso and ki tests.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
and more importantly, why?
I've been consistently taught that they are the skills and movements underlying our waza. In the years I've been training I've not yet had reason to doubt it. Nor have I completely figure it out yet either...

The second reason stems from the first. I'm a student first and foremost. I'm not sufficiently enlightened yet to be making my own judgements (I'm firmly and unabashedly in the 'ha' level of my understanding of Aikido and I know it). My sensei studied directly with R. Kobayashi-sensei for decades. R. Kobayashi-sensei trained with Tohei-sensei among others. Who brings us back O-sensei... Or to put this another way... Cause my sensei said so...

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Secondarily, why do you think they would be important from Ueshiba's point of view?
Never met the man and I wouldn't presume to know his mind. But these things came to our group via Tohei-sensei and O-Sensei did think highly enough of him to make him Chief Instructor back in the day.

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 11:06 AM   #11
mickeygelum
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
mickeygelum's Avatar
Dojo: Warren Budokan, Ohio USA
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 502
United_States
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

Mr. Murray,

Shodokan has the Junana Hon Kata, which is the core/basis for everything in our system. The Junana Hon Kata is the research of Professor Tomiki, thus the reduction to the basic techniques, from there everything else is built. Professor Tomiki's ability, rank and experience are already documented, I need not further elaborate.

Tegatana Dosa and Shichi Hon No Kuzushi, the foot/hand exercises unique to Shodokan, is a foundation for taisabaki and kuzushi. The practice of these skill sets will enhance posture, timing, speed and distance in execution of any technique.

Here is a link the Junana Hon Kata demonstrated by Sakai Sensei, at the 2007 World Games, this past August.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D48Ds8woSPs

I hope this helps.

Train well,

Mickey
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 11:16 AM   #12
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Aiki Taiso and ki tests.
Hi Keith,

Thanks for the reply! Do you think there's specific Aiki Taiso that are more important? Or that they all build various skills and each is important for the whole development?

Personally, I'm getting more out of doing the wrist "stretches" right now than I am out of doing fune kogi undo. Not that I think fune kogi is useless, just that I'm still working out all the subtleties of that exercise.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 11:25 AM   #13
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Mr. Murray,
Please, it's Mark. Hope you've had a chance to get together with Holloway already. Tell him that I said he's a bum.

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Shodokan has the Junana Hon Kata, which is the core/basis for everything in our system. The Junana Hon Kata is the research of Professor Tomiki, thus the reduction to the basic techniques, from there everything else is built. Professor Tomiki's ability, rank and experience are already documented, I need not further elaborate.
Thanks! I find that Tomiki was one of the quieter "geniuses" of aikido. It would have been nice to have met and trained with him.

I'm familiar with the junana kata -- I have a background (from years ago) in the Jiyushinkai. Although what I remember is slightly different from the youtube vid. What do you think of the koryu dai yon kata?

Thanks,
Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 11:59 AM   #14
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,536
United_States
Offline
Smile Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hi Keith,

Thanks for the reply! Do you think there's specific Aiki Taiso that are more important? Or that they all build various skills and each is important for the whole development?

Personally, I'm getting more out of doing the wrist "stretches" right now than I am out of doing fune kogi undo. Not that I think fune kogi is useless, just that I'm still working out all the subtleties of that exercise.
I find all the exercises have their merits. Some are more complex than others, but they all have their place. And I often work on individual ones on my own time. Every now and then I'll position myself in front of a large mirror we have on the left side of the main wall in our training area. I've yet to get through the aiki taiso without making some mental notes on things I needed to improve/fix/look into further.

Too many consider the aiki taiso a warmup IMHO. I see them as the most critical part of the training. One thing I tend to tell my students is that the aiki taiso is a time when you can work on a large number of critical skills without some bozo yanking you around. And since there is no uke they should be able to do each exercise with precision, perfect balance and proper flow. And I've found that as I refine my form in the aiki taiso many problems during actual practice tend to go away all by themselves... Shoshin ni kaeru.

FWIW I remember being somewhat puzzled with the early discussions about "internal" stuff being lacking nowadays in Aikido. I thought that was exactly what the aiki taiso was all about all along. It has been beaten into my head that way for the time I've been training. I've since visited many more dojo and found there is quite a variation in how training is approached so I guess I understand the concern more now. That said I've met a lot of really great aikidoka who approach things differently. Lots of paths up the mountain and all that.

But it did reaffirm my personal focus on improving those basic things for myself as taught within our style... Focus on the "one-point"/hara/whatever you call it. Get that basic controlled tension. Let the ki flow from it. Stay relaxed but with control. Settle down into the ground in a solid fashion. Now start moving without losing any of those things... Critical things to every one of the aiki taiso right down to even the wrist exercises.

YMMV. Just the opinions of one fella and all opinions are my own responsibility...

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 12:06 PM   #15
dalen7
 
dalen7's Avatar
Dojo: Karcag Aikido Club
Location: Karcag
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 750
Hungary
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

Hmmm -

Sankyo, and...Sankyo (all roads lead to Sankyo if you want them to)

- Nikkyo aint half bad either.

But here is kind of our base:

- Shiho nage
- Irmi nage
- UchiKaiten nage & UchiKaiten Sankyo...totally cool...
(also SotoKaiten nage)
- Kote gaeshi

- Ikko,
- Nikkyo
- Sankyo

Peace

dAlen

dAlen [day•lynn]
dum spiro spero - {While I have breathe - I have hope}

Art
http://www.lightofinfinity.org

Philosophical
http://dalen7.wordpress.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 12:35 PM   #16
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,536
United_States
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

To kinda finalize my thoughts...

Watching someone who can really dance I think illustrates what I feel. The really good dancer isn't a good dancer because they know particular dance moves. Nope, they need to know them but ultimately it's all about *how* they do them. Most start by learning where to put their feet, where to put their hands, then how to move. At some point (hopefully) they stop just moving around like an automaton but start *dancing*. It is something completely transcendent from the actual "dance steps". The goal of most dancers is to learn to really *dance* in the sense of Fred Astaire gliding across the floor with Ginger Rogers flowing along in perfect harmony. Or a ballet dancer making the incredibly difficult look easy. But more than that; making it beautiful. Transcending the moves.

Or in music... Not just playing the notes in the right order, but making music. The notes aren't the music. The music is the synthesis of everything involved becoming a transcendent experience. Just listen to some of Duke Ellington's solo piano work... Reflections in D for example. Not particularly difficult but amazing in every subtle way. I can play it note for note, but it just ain't the same as when Duke plays it...

Aikido is I think very much a similar thing. Techniques are taught as a means of giving us glimpses as to what Aikido is all about. The techniques themselves are not aikido, merely means of discovering and exploring it. At some point I began to realize that for me it isn't the techniques that matter but the underlying structure that it teaches you about. And that underlying structure is all there in the aiki taiso and ki tests as well. So each technique isn't aikido nor are they as a set the "basics" of aikido IMO. They're more tools to find the real deal... So I go back to the ki tests and aiki taiso. Then practice techniques to try to put those lessons into action under more difficult circumstances. But if I can't do the aiki taiso or ki tests well the other stuff is pretty much a non-starter for me personally.

Again, just my opinions. Blame me.

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 12:58 PM   #17
mickeygelum
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
mickeygelum's Avatar
Dojo: Warren Budokan, Ohio USA
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 502
United_States
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

Hey Mark,

Tuhan Holloway sends his regards...he spoke highly of you at dinner last night. I was able to show him my schools and what is available in the future. He mentioned that the proximity was ideal for all of us to get together on a regular basis. You, and your folks, are welcome to stay at my main dojo instead of seeking hotel accommodations. Tuhan is giving a introductory clinic this evening, everyone is really looking forward to it.

As for the Junana Hon Kata...yes, Jiyushinkai has its own interpretation as well as the Tegatana No Kata vs. Tegatana Dosa, yet they both derive from Ashi Waza. Tegatana No Kata focuses on fluid motion and body awareness, Tegatana Dosa focuses on application...taisabaki/kuzushi. Tegatana Dosa could appear to be a condensed version of Tegatana No Kata, depending on your perspective.

Koryu Dai Yon Kata...my favorite. I believe that it is the most powerful in terms of application of kata. 33 techniques in a minute and a half....

Train well,

Mickey

Last edited by mickeygelum : 08-06-2008 at 01:02 PM. Reason: ommission of sentence
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 01:03 PM   #18
Lan Powers
Dojo: Aikido of Midland, Midland TX
Location: Midland Tx
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 659
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

Extremely well put, Mr Larman

Lan

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 02:31 PM   #19
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,928
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

Where I currently train, folks start with and learn variations from "Basic Eight" which, I believe, probably came from Tohei Sensei/Ki Society? They are:
Katatori ikkyo
Katatori nikyo
Yokomenuchi Shihonage
Shomenuchi Kokyunage (which is everybody else's iriminage)
Tsuki Kotegaishe
Forward projection throw from a ushiro bear hug
Sankyo from ushiro wrist grab/hand to throat
Kokyu dosa

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 07:23 PM   #20
Joe McParland
 
Joe McParland's Avatar
Dojo: Sword Mountain Aikido & Zen
Location: Baltimore, MD
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 309
United_States
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

Quote:
Lan Powers wrote: View Post
Extremely well put, Mr Larman
Seconded!

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 09:35 PM   #21
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I thought that there had been other posts about the core techniques in aikido. I did a quick search and couldn't find them to use as a reference. I'm pretty sure they're out there, though.

But, I wondered what people thought were the core techniques of their aikido and more importantly, why? Secondarily, why do you think they would be important from Ueshiba's point of view?
Shiho nage for me b' coz:

1) It teaches principle of tenkan very well
2) It teaches the principle of blending very well
3) It teaches the principle of non-resistance very well
4) all if not most of the principle found to work in aikido are found in shihonage
5) and... I am good at it.

Sorry don't know about M.Ueshiba.

Boon

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 10:21 PM   #22
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,928
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

As I recall, the first techniques I was instructed in were shomenuchi ikkyo and katatetori shihonage and katatetori sumiotoshi, and the reason is I could backfall for months before I could roll!

I still think sumiotoshi is a nice basic technique because it shows the principles of entering and of kuzushi in a way a newbie can immediately see on a basic level.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2008, 05:41 AM   #23
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

I would say Ippon Dori. It has irimi, it has atemi, it has control, it opens many doors to go on from it...
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2008, 06:03 AM   #24
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

I was talking to someone the other day and the answer I gave was something along these lines. There are 6 basic joint-locks/pins (ikkyo-rokyo), and 8 basic throws (shiho, irimi, kokyu, kaiten, kotegaeshi, tenchi, koshi, juji), each of which can be executed from 3 basic grabs (katate, kata, ushiro) and 3 basic strikes (yokomen, shomen, tsuki). Rather than consider the 126 possible combinations, times 2 for omote/ura, plus variations, plus supplementary techniques, I would only consider the "stuff" in the middle to be the actual technique. So we're basically talking about 14 major (and common) techniques.

The "core" techniques, to me, are principal to the art, in terms of core learning principles. I think if you can understand the core techniques (and concomitant principles), you've pretty much got the gist of the art. But then I could be wrong....

So, what I think are the core techniques are:
ikkyo - coz everything is ikkyo
shiho - coz the basis of all other throws is derived from an understanding of shiho
kokyu - coz no kokyu no aikido

No idea about Ueshiba.... can't ask him.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2008, 07:53 AM   #25
Angela Dunn
Dojo: Hartlepool/Peterlee/Billingham
Location: Hartlepool,UK
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 69
England
Offline
Re: Core Techniques in Aikido -- and Why

Personally for me they are

Forward and backward roles (having a mind blank to what they are actually called at the moment)- simply from a safety aspect they are safer to land from when your begaining. Also if you can not forward role properly then how can you learn how to breakfall properly (as our class says a breakfall is just a role with a slap)

Shiho nage , most other throwing techniques I have been taught can be found from that

Ikkkyo- again any other pin can be found from that move

Sankyo- because I really like that move but also the throws at my level, if not found from Shiho nage can be found from Sankyo.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:34 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate