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Old 08-23-2008, 09:23 PM   #176
rob_liberti
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

I have some experience here. I tried training past strength. I admit it produces better results than most of the other things I tried. I know quite a few people who made some decent progress that way. Given all of that experience, I still firmly believe that training this stuff directly is better and faster. The case of Tom H demonstrates this to me in 1 year. Other people who have been training with Dan for 6 months are further along than I was after trying to train past strength for a whole lot longer than 6 months...

Rob
 
Old 08-23-2008, 09:31 PM   #177
Upyu
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post

If you work past strength in typical terms-- all you have left is structure and dynamic. If you are paying attention at the time, you realize how little strength contributes to powerful performance. That's all I have to say about that.
Actually strength plays a big part. A huge part. Just not the same kind of "strength." But it's still a strength derived partly from conditioned musculature
 
Old 08-23-2008, 11:14 PM   #178
Tom H.
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Given all of that experience, I still firmly believe that training this stuff directly is better and faster. The case of Tom H demonstrates this to me in 1 year.
IIRC, the first time we met met I was already getting my foot in the door. You should have seen (or just imagine instead) where I was a year before *that*, when I first met Dan, which itself was after I had been working some aunkai basics for six months. It's almost unimaginable how un-martial my body was. Take away: any progress is due entirely to this stuff, with a from-scratch approach, and not due to previous training, body-building, manual labor, or theoreticals.

If anyone in black rock city wants to meet up next week, btw, I'll be staying with friends in the vicinity of 9:00 and bonneville.
 
Old 08-24-2008, 09:09 AM   #179
DH
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

The whole "training past strength" idea isn't going to get you one step closer to this. In fact it is yet another clear example of what methods to avoid if you happen to be looking for internal power and aiki. I have seen and /or been part of that whole; run, and lift and carry your mates, blah blah till your tired- as a way to get you to relax and train through fatigue. I rejected it as having any benefit for this type of training at all.
Does zip for me.

I prefer to have folks bright eyed, rested, and focused, and when they get tired I have them stop,and rest, so they can re-engage and think at optimal performance. If you are going to train this way, then train steadily through it to fatigue, rest and do it again, every day. I am also 100% convinced that it is not muscle that is being initially worked, but rather bone, tendons and fascia-and muscle.

Erick
Again , I think this is a good thing for folks reading. Since I am pointing one way, and you are pointing in an entirely different direction-the one they left hehind -they now know it clearly isn't the same. The more you talk about you and your teachers understanding and the schools goals and methods, the clearer and more distinct you make it known that it has nothing in common with what we are talking about- pretty much in its entirety. Oddly though, you seem to think you do understand what I am doing, and now your and your teacher are telling me what I am lacking as well. I for one am interested in feeling these corrections of his in person instead of just on the net.So how bout it?
Talk with your teacher. Or if you don't mind, give me the name and address and your teachers name. He might choose to discuss it with me himself. I would find it facinating see you and he show me my failing to understand aiki in person. I thought of a way to make it worth it for me, and maybe some others who would like to fly-in for the event.. I am now thinking of scheduling a seminar right there close by you, when I come. This way a multitude of people can feel me and can then pay a mat fee and train with your teacher, and get a feel for you and your teachers methods. The people from Aikiweb have expressed an interest in seeing you and me and now your teacher- in a room. Then they can see you publicly demonstrate the corrections of me and my measly skills to my face instead of just on the net. It could be a good symposium on aiki, and give folks an idea for what's going on in Florida or in Mass.. At the very least it could be yet another positive learning experience for akiweb members and some interested readers who come here from other forums.
Talk to your teacher, or let me do it. Since you want to continually join in, here's your chance to do more than talk.
 
Old 08-24-2008, 11:37 AM   #180
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

And of course we want to see the results on YouTube. I mean, when its visible in movie format then everyone can understand it, right?

Recently... thinking... personal issues coming to the fore from far back in childhood ... recognition of what needs to be done ... a sense of closure with many demons and half-perceived truths about myself ... and now recognition of conversations going nowhere: demons in others, their problems not mind.

Back to training.
 
Old 08-25-2008, 05:45 PM   #181
Erick Mead
 
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I am also 100% convinced that it is not muscle that is being initially worked, but rather bone, tendons and fascia-and muscle.
Again who said we differ on that? To strengthen muscles you work TO failure. Working past strength is not to make the muscles stronger but to make them fail, and then continue working. The point is to teach the mind how to work the body when the easy resources are and remained exhausted or essentially unuseable.

Whether a person sees the point or not in that effort -- once getting into that mode -- is a largely question of a shift in perception. Like many optical "illusions," there are also physiological phase-shifts in perception. Not everybody "gets" it, and those that don't will swear until they are blue in the face it is one thing or the other and that it is plain stupid to claim to see something else -- But if you allow your perception to be shifted you may see that it is actually both things, and neither one alone. That defies easy categories. But I am predisposed to like the not-so-easy ones.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Erick
Again , I think this is a good thing for folks reading.
I live to serve.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Since I am pointing one way, and you are pointing in an entirely different direction-the one they left hehind -they now know it clearly isn't the same.
I have never said they were different. I have said that we had come to understand them differently. That is not the same thing. If either of a balloonist and a glider pilot criticized the other for failing to understand the principles of flight, both would have an imperfect understanding of the nature of the thing in dispute.

But fear not, we will encompass your understanding and add your distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The more you talk about you and your teachers understanding and the schools goals and methods,
Actually, I haven't talked much about those at all -- not that they are anything removed from very traditional training. What I have talked about is visualization of the work according to actual mechanical principles -- as opposed to an ad hoc training methodology, alien categories, and metaphorical concepts. I'm not even criticizing your methodology. I'm no criticizing its success in practical terms for what you choose to do with it, anymore than I criticize the alien categories of traditional understandings thougt which I was trained. Nor I am I criticizing the efforts of those who are fellow travellers on your road, in so far as you have related it here.

I give you all credit for doing what you say because others I have some cause to trust say you are capable. I don't ask for your credence -- I simply state from observation things that cannot reasonably be rebutted. And so far they haven't. If they could be rebutted through reasoned argument, they long since should have been laid out, instead of the weakest of rhetorical devices, the repetitive ad hominem.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Oddly though, you seem to think you do understand what I am doing, and now your and your teacher are telling me what I am lacking as well.
I interpret what you say, in light of objective principle and experience. I speak for myself. All I related was a isolated comment about the apparent focus of your approach in traditional terms as largely disregarding the "ki of heaven." It wasn't even a criticism so much as an observation. If you feel it was critical, the question is -- why? So far, you haven't said it it was an incorrect observation in those terms.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Talk to your teacher, or let me do it. Since you want to continually join in, here's your chance to do more than talk.
You may speak to whom you will. I'll let you figure it out -- but it's all here, and it's not a secret. I suspect if fully informed, he might refer you back to Jim Sorrentino, but I could be wrong. He probably even has a low opinion of my ability, but then, he is more than entitled to.

My ability might surprise you, might not. But my points don't depend on my person -- which is THE POINT. Whether my thought and my eye are faster or more subtle than my body or my hands, or any of them meet or exceed any of yours makes absolutely no never mind to me. This is what it is, and I'll use it for what it can offer. Talk is all you or I can do here. I'm not going to curse the cow for not being a horse, I'm going to work on getting the milk.

On balance, the limits of the opportunity that this forum presents and what it naturally allows are not remotely stretched by many of the efforts on this topic.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 08-25-2008 at 05:49 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 08-26-2008, 08:54 AM   #182
DH
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I have never said they were different. I have said that we had come to understand them differently. That is not the same thing. But fear not, we will encompass your understanding and add your distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile.
Hi Erick
Come on man, step up. I'm willing to come to you and have some fun.
Here we are, you once again claim our knowledge is the same.
Once again claim to understand this type of training on equal footing with me. Then when called on it- try to find wiggle room to get out of accountability. This isn't a court room Erick.Nor an episode of Star Trec. And unless you're Seven of Nine you might not find my distinctiveness very pleasant. Mores the point, I have no intention of giving you anything you can add to your collective. What I intend to do is to display a skill set that you will be completely incapable of stopping or matching, and an understanding of aiki out of your reach. It will not take long. Then, I will do something completely out of character for me. I will not show you how or what to do to help you understand. I fully intend to turn around and leave. To leave you standing there wondering what just happened to you and why you couldn't do anything.
Its Budo Erick.You claimed equal understanding-now your teacher claims superior knoweldge. Time to back it up.

Quote:
I give you all credit for doing what you say because others I have some cause to trust say you are capable. I don't ask for your credence -- I simply state from observation things that cannot reasonably be rebutted. And so far they haven't. If they could be rebutted through reasoned argument, they long since should have been laid out, instead of the weakest of rhetorical devices, the repetitive ad hominem.
Again, you state you can describe what I do, and are equal but understand it differently, then go on through your teacher to tell me what I lack. When I ask you to step up and put your body where your mouth is-you say -that- is ad hominem?
This is budo Erick-not law. No one is attacking you. You have laid claim to equal knowledge of my methods ad now the ability to critique it. Okay, lets see. Like it or not you are being called to be responsible for your...words. Not attacked personally.

Quote:
I interpret what you say, in light of objective principle and experience. I speak for myself. All I related was a isolated comment about the apparent focus of your approach in traditional terms as largely disregarding the "ki of heaven." It wasn't even a criticism so much as an observation. If you feel it was critical, the question is -- why? So far, you haven't said it it was an incorrect observation in those terms.
You made the statements, defined my limits, now are attempting to control my response to your critiques of my knowledge in this area. Enough already. You claim to equally understand these skills, you continually press me and interupt all my discussions, now through your teacher offer me corrections, thus stating that you are not only equal, but better. Fair enough.
Man-up. I'm calling you on it. Time to show Erick.

Quote:
You may speak to whom you will. I'll let you figure it out -- but it's all here, and it's not a secret. I suspect if fully informed, he might refer you back to Jim Sorrentino, but I could be wrong. He probably even has a low opinion of my ability, but then, he is more than entitled to.
I think it readily known that Jim Sorrentino is a rank beginner at these skills and has nothing to teach me whatsoever in that regard. Unlike you, he is willing to admit it and is actively seeking and learning these skills and thus is ahead of you in several ways. Referring me to him, at this point in the game is so over the top it's actually funny. Less it has escaped your attention Erick, I am not claiming skills equal to you, or Jims, or your teacher. Someone like you, is going to be completely and totally overwhelmed.
So you might do better referring me to a one-on-one with the highest ranked Shihan from Japan you can find who is willing. You'd at least maybe have a chance at making some point-maybe.
And Erick? With you-I won't use a single technique or harm you in any way. Just aiki.

Quote:
My ability might surprise you, might not. But my points don't depend on my person -- which is THE POINT. Whether my thought and my eye are faster or more subtle than my body or my hands, or any of them meet or exceed any of yours makes absolutely no never mind to me. This is what it is, and I'll use it for what it can offer. Talk is all you or I can do here. I'm not going to curse the cow for not being a horse, I'm going to work on getting the milk.
Let me make this perfectly clear Erick. You stated over and over you understand these things equally to me and keep telling me what I am doing and how, now have made claim to be able to correct my understanding. I am not interested in these waffling comments that "your skills may surprise me" or "your points do not depend on your person." Or talk is all we can do here."
I want you, face to face. To see you display the power and ability that not only equals my own, but to see both you and your teacher then display the attirbutes that are superior to the way I publicly advocate training. YOu have asked for this for years now. Severl members of Aikiweb woud like to feel you and see you defend your claimed understanding in person. Look at the positive side-now you have more than "just your words here" don't you?

Quote:
On balance, the limits of the opportunity that this forum presents and what it naturally allows are not remotely stretched by many of the efforts on this topic.
There is no limits to this forum Erick. I am willing to come see you, to test your knowledge of this subject in a venue that is friendly and quite definitive. As I said It now appears that members from Aikiweb, who are as affronted by your continued behavior as I am, and would like to witness your self described abilities and understanding first hand.

Aikiweb is a great host and these calls for get togethers by those who are so forward in their posts have benefitted many. This new (but old) knowledge has helped hundreds and is growing because of accountability, openess and sharing among its members, that started here. Those who have now met Rob, Ark, Mike, or me are now training this way. You have claimed to know these skills and now your teacher claims to know them to the point of correcting me. You interrupt all of my posting and threads-almost to the point of stalking me on Aiki-web- to make it known and lay claim to understanding. So, we want to see it and test it. If you have these skills, and in the above are claiming they are traditionally taught in your dojo and in your line, this will be a great end to the debate that has been going on for years now. Just think, there are high ranked Aikido teachers who have felt this and readily admit they can't do it, and many students who are trying to learn.
So, you can single handedly resolve some questions and years worth of research, or let members honestly know you are not a scourse of information for these skills. I don't think its fair misleading honest people out there searching.
TIme to step up Erick.
Talk to your teacher.

Last edited by DH : 08-26-2008 at 09:08 AM.
 
Old 08-26-2008, 10:49 AM   #183
akiy
 
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

Hi folks,

Can you all please stop hijacking threads to discuss so-and-so's personal skill abilities and go back to addressing the topic at hand?

I have to say that continuously witnessing multiple threads degenerate into this kind of personal discussion is quite disappointing. You're all adults. You've all been asked to watch both what and how you write. Yet, threads keep devolving into this kind of personal vitriol. I'm tired of it, really.

Shape up, people. STOP IT.

Thread closed.

-- Jun

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