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Old 08-04-2008, 12:51 AM   #26
Erick Mead
 
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Re: ukemi of the Russian Video Clips

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Actually it is spot on. Rob wasn't attacking Eric, he wasn't questioning his understanding of the potential terms- he was questioning his knowledge of the skills in the first place to even have a discussion of terms.
That wasn't a question -- because he wasn't interested in an answer. Nor are you. As far as you all are concerned you have The Answer. And my push for truly objective physical standards and principles really must threaten that for some bizarre reason that the cicadas in these backwoods West Florida pines aren't telling tonight.
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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
... I hate to see people come on who cannot do these things with measurable results, and more importantly do not have a record of proving they can teach it to people with measurable results being given any sort of support.
Why? I care more about honest hard working students who are trusting they are getting useful information, so they avoid so much wasted time.
One doesn't have to doubt ability (I don't have any reason to) to question motives. Gee, and while we're "questioning" motivations and agendas, ulterior and otherwise -- who will vet the new order?

Dan just defined himself as politician -- deciding who will meet (and enforce) sound Aiki™ standards (his usage -- NOT mine) and ALL for the sake of the "little people". Oh, and shall we have objective physical standards? NOOOO, too much trouble -- gets in the way of efficient enforcement against all them wicked people all the "right people" just know are bad, bad bad ... I've heard this all somewhere before.
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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
They are increasingly getting checked out, and self-selected out of the discussion for lack of any real abilities.
You will go farther in budo checking behind the scenes than you ever will "on air."
Oh, and spies and whisper campaigns, too, touting reliance on "those in the know." So much cleaner and simpler than old fashioned yaburi. Quite the little commissariat Dan is working on. People were speaking so well of Dan but it makes me wonder.

Don't you think he sounds tired?

Since I am not "going" anywhere in budo, and have no aspiration beyond showing up to train, I'll stay out of it for both our sakes, and he's tired anyway, so I shouldn't bother him, and I am not in the way to anywhere, anyway, really.

Does seem tired though. Taking on responsibility for all those poor people's lack of decent training. Must be positively exhausting. Deserves a break.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 08-04-2008, 12:57 AM   #27
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Erick, I believe you've misattributed a quote by me as coming from Rob.
Apologies.

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
As far as what Don Angier does or doesn't teach, ...the explanation he provided on that particular video clip is precisely what Cady said, and has nothing to do with rotational dynamics - at least not in the way he explained it.
Love to see it. Reputedly, he is very practically minded in his teaching. "Feet pull -- hands push" is one that I have read as attributed to him. What does that combination make if not a coupled rotation around center?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 08-04-2008, 06:49 AM   #28
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

Ah but Erick, neither I or anyone else is narrowing a definition to any single person or art are they? It's much bigger than that. Which has been the stated view all along. I think the sting is that aiki was always a safe bet. It was so etherial and was surrounded by so much cooperative training and quasi religious trappings that it was easy to muddy the waters. Attaching a demand of physical results to aiki, and the worst of all afronts- that it can tested outside of waza-further still that is has testable martial power and prowess in use- blows the lid of that safe haven.

You're making an argument that "you" can describe aiki in universally recognized physics terminology. How do you then object that it can also be recognized by an increasing number of people growing aware of it by a universally recognized medium-that being-experience in touch or feel? It is they who are out making their own discoveries and opinions. They come from all types of arts and are looking in all corners to compare their research.

Those are the people doing the vetting-by default. The people out doing the research. Their vetting is more honest than politics will allow for. And less it escapes your attention- its been done this way in the arts probably as long as there have been fighting men-for generations. Its how men showed up in Japan and China looking for this or that "guy" they had heard of, from men they trusted or in print. These people out looking are no different. They talk and share one to another.So let's not be overly wrought or surprised to see men doing the same they have done for hundreds if not thousands of years -but now through a different medium. Today boards are yesterdays print media filled with reviews of teachers, and methods. It led me out to meet people and test and feel those in the Japanese and Chinese arts. Rob, simply pointed out -as have I- that sometimes there is a distinction between some mens written knowledge and their knowledge or skills in their bodies. It's just the way of it.

Tired? I'm just getting started. I think I have a long way to go in learning myself. There are more people training this way every month, now joining with others who are just getting started. I think people are happy about discovering they can "do" aiki and have their power grow in a practical and teachable method.
That's good news bud.

Last edited by DH : 08-04-2008 at 06:57 AM.
 
Old 08-04-2008, 08:27 AM   #29
Erick Mead
 
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

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Ah but Erick, neither I or anyone else is narrowing a definition to any single person or art are they? It's much bigger than that. Which has been the stated view all along. ... I think the sting is that aiki was always a safe bet. It was so etherial and was surrounded by so much cooperative training and quasi religious trappings that it was easy to muddy the waters.
Attaching a demand of physical results to aiki, and the worst of all afronts- that it can tested outside of waza-further still that is has testable martial power and prowess in use- blows the lid of that safe haven.
And quasi-mechanical trappings are no less subject to abuse. The premise -- of your own paragon Sagawa --is that NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO -- the training of aiki takes at least twenty years. His strong suggestion (if Clear Power is to be believed) that mindful approach to a diligent practice will reveal it, in whole or in part, and once a part is grasped the whole begins to reveal itself to effort and study. Argue with him.

I take a different tone, because a claim to "save the exploited" (added to the knee-jerk resort to ad hom attack) is a mark of a narcissistic ego typical amongst political animals. People who tell other people how to do things because they have resolved themselves to be better, more talented and well, just darn well more noble than the poor oppressed peonage.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You're making an argument that "you" can describe aiki in universally recognized physics terminology.
No. I am arguing that it can and should be. If it is so described -- then who did it makes no never mind, as the fact is independent of its manner of being revealed. I very likely have many portions more muddled than not in my efforts to digest a HIGHLY non-linear subject into linear terms, and to advance a long-neglected subject area. All I care about is the knowledge and its correctness and in the service of that I am entirely willing to dare and to correct significant conceptual error -- in public. You notably discuss nothing of your actual training process in public. Holding back knowladge is suspect; it ain't nuclear weapons. And you can look that up on the internet anyway, since it takes far more in hard capital and time investment to make it useable any way -- sort of similar, actually.

But the terms I use become steadily clearer by this process. Comparing data to construct and refining the construct to fit the data. It's called science. It may have managed one or two rather more complicated areas of knowledge in its time, but I could well be wrong about that, too.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
How do you then object that it can also be recognized by an increasing number of people growing aware of it by a universally recognized medium-that being-experience in touch or feel?
Never contested it - nor in the least belittled it. I have been complimentary of Rob's approach to describe the training and the purpose of their training approach -- and because of the relative transparency. I have no problem with it. I have criticized certain persons' demonstrably wrong mechanical explanations and have endured one or two person's competently challenging some minor points in my own. I'm willing to take what I dish out.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It is they who are out making their own discoveries and opinions. They come from all types of arts and are looking in all corners to compare their research.
They are highly motivated, competent self-learners who have come as far as they have on their own resources and have reached a the top of a growth curve, as occurs in any endeavor. As with any topped out growth curve ,it requires substantial additional investment and the endurance of actual retrenchment before new growth can begin again. That's the real meaning of "beginner's mind." It's not a mark of fresh vision, but a willingness to faithfully work through a period where little hopeful is seen. One might observe that such people are just vulnerable as beginners to such a pitch -- to save them from that unavoidable dark night -- but day comes again all on its own, if they do not give up.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
And less it escapes your attention- its been done this way in the arts probably as long as there have been fighting men-for generations. Its how men showed up in Japan and China looking for this or that "guy" they had heard of, from men they trusted or in print.
Yes. And they have so far trounced Western thinking on warfare in the last hundred years, have they? Might do to follow the demonstrably more successful strategy in that regard. The PLAN is not following the naval architectural plan of Zheng He.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think people are happy about discovering they can "do" aiki and have their power grow in a practical and teachable method.
That's good news bud.
Who said it wasn't? I just think that some of those you preach to lost faith at a point because of the natural progression of growth requires periods of no progress or actual regression to foster new growth. People are always impatient of the plow and the seed, and vulnerable to products that will purport to hasten nature ( and may well . But hastened nature is not the same product as steady growth -- ask any lumberman. As long as they continue to tend their patch with diligence and attention, they'll get through it with you or without you -- and how do I know that? Simple -- because they got this far.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 08-04-2008 at 08:39 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 08-04-2008, 09:44 AM   #30
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

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And quasi-mechanical trappings are no less subject to abuse. The premise -- of your own paragon Sagawa --is that NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO -- the training of aiki takes at least twenty years. His strong suggestion (if Clear Power is to be believed) that mindful approach to a diligent practice will reveal it, in whole or in part, and once a part is grasped the whole begins to reveal itself to effort and study. Argue with him.
No need. The same guy stated he didn't teach, his student didn't get it, admitted witholding and stated that finally toward the end of his career he started to show how. Viola! What does he say the results were?
People started getting it.
All the rest of the twenty year stuff is more patting us on the head and telling us to eat more rice. I say teach what you were doing in training yourself, and let the chips fall where they may. After all, if it isn't in fact ego, then you would do what I do share openly within my group and show them how to stop me and others, then how to get better. Placing the burden-on them-and challenging me and them.
Iron sharpens iron. Enjoy it.
I think more often than not it is exactly about ego and also protectionism.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I take a different tone, because a claim to "save the exploited" (added to the knee-jerk resort to ad hom attack) is a mark of a narcissistic ego typical amongst political animals. People who tell other people how to do things because they have resolved themselves to be better, more talented and well, just darn well more noble than the poor oppressed peonage.
Well to take the tone I mean to convey... I would never engage in a debate over terms and methodology to perform complex gymnastic floor exercises on the net. And that to someone whos never done them. Descriptions would not help one bit.
It's good enough to talk about their existance and where to go to train.

I deleted the comments about debate style. I not only agree with you, I have complimented you many times in both your honesty and willingness. All I am saying is that first-you don't know the material. And second, that its a waste to try and "describe" these things if you don't. No big deal really.

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highly motivated, competent self-learners who have come as far as they have on their own resources and have reached a the top of a growth curve, as occurs in any endeavor. As with any topped out growth curve ,it requires substantial additional investment and the endurance of actual
snip......
I just think that some of those you preach to lost faith at a point because of the natural progression of growth requires periods of no progress or actual regression to foster new growth. People are always impatient of the plow and the seed, and vulnerable to products that will purport to hasten nature ( and may well . But hastened nature is not the same product as steady growth -- ask any lumberman. As long as they continue to tend their patch with diligence and attention, they'll get through it with you or without you -- and how do I know that? Simple -- because they got this far.
Of course this is presuming everyone is trying to learn the same thing, and that it is there in their art and with that teacher to learn.
Hm...I know too many guys who have just encountered this training after 30 or so years in the arts. They were flummoxed. I mean one or two? Okay. Three, four twenty, a hundred? I think it paints a picture both to them and those of us showing things. I think we have heard enough voices stating that there was no way they were going to have figured this out by themselves or by doing kata.

Personally were I you, I'd seriously consider Sagawa's comments out two sides of his mouth, in conjunction with me telling I watched my teacher not teach rooms of people, to Peters new column about the omote of aikido taught outside Japan and the Ura reserved for Japanese teachers. I would take that and review the ICMA which have so many guys who haven't any more clue to developing real power than their Japanese counter parts. And they at least know its there.

Good luck in your training

Last edited by DH : 08-04-2008 at 09:50 AM.
 
Old 08-04-2008, 10:36 AM   #31
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
review the ICMA which have so many guys who haven't any more clue to developing real power than their Japanese counter parts. And they at least know its there.

Good luck in your training
Aye, we do know it's there. And that it's not a type of training you'll find at WalMart.
 
Old 08-04-2008, 11:20 AM   #32
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

Hi Tom
Yea I was a little suprised and kinda disappointed at how well allot of them can discuss the terminology better than I certainly can but when it came to a show and tell..er...well.
Then again some of their master level teachers?? Wham!
So it ties in with the Japanese model with arts that have internal power; just who, is teaching what, to whom...and when? And is there a better more efficient way to learn it to power their arts?
 
Old 08-04-2008, 01:12 PM   #33
Erick Mead
 
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

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Iron sharpens iron. Enjoy it.
I do. But a waterstone sharpens better; ceramic sharpens even better than that, and diamonds, better yet. And whoever heard of a Japanese sword sharpened with a steel, outside of some garage wallhanger collection? {Shudder.]

(For what it's worth ceramic and diamond hones required some amount of technical work to make, and to improve in making them even more effective, and they probably looked really messy while they were sorting out the correct principles.)

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I would never engage in a debate over terms and methodology to perform complex gymnastic floor exercises on the net.
Funny. My daughters are gymnasts. And even funnier, you seem to be alone in that regard, since the gymnastic folks seem to make perfectly good use of it:
http://www.gymnasticsrevolution.com/Parents.htm

In fact, by careful study of principles, people have even have been able to invent new things, and novel applications, which I believe Sagawa discusses also. Go figure!. http://www.gymnasticsrevolution.com/Parents%2021.html

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 08-04-2008, 04:18 PM   #34
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Re: ukemi of the Russian Video Clips

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Actually it is spot on. Rob wasn't attacking Eric, he wasn't questioning his understanding of the potential terms- he was questioning his knowledge of the skills in the first place to even have a discussion of terms. If you don't know the skills- what's the point in defining your terms? Particularly in agonizingly long posts?
I'm just saying it seemed to me Erick gave an argument describing a premise and rather than address the argument, Rob basically replied with "you don't know what you're talking about." I'd like to read more than that. I know you all have gone over this stuff ad nauseum though so I suppose I can see why folks would get tired of repeating themselves. I probably should just go back and do some reading.

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Some people really care about folks being led astray like most of us were for years.
I respect that. It helps the martial arts community a lot.

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I hate to see people come on who cannot do these things with measurable results, and more importantly do not have a record of proving they can teach it to people with measurable results being given any sort of support.
Absence of evidence isn't evidence of fallacy...but I'll read the conversations.

Quote:
I was recently with a friend and we were discussing time and distance in training. Most people travel to get this stuff. They really need accurate models and hands on tune-ups to stay on track and not waste so much time.
It pays to train with exceptional people. I mean, it's all relative, but I agree strongly with the notion that if you want to get better faster you have to train with folks who are a lot better than you, whatever the skill. They tend to hold things to a more greatly refined standard. I've also noticed what little I've learned of aikido fades a bit when I don't practice it regularly, so I completely agree with what you're saying about hands-on tune ups.

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You will go farther in budo checking behind the scenes than you ever will "on air."
True in probably all things other than budo as well. Buyer beware; always.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 08-04-2008, 05:13 PM   #35
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Re: ukemi of the Russian Video Clips

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Erick gave an argument describing a premise and rather than address the argument ....
Plus ca change...

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Some people really care about folks being led astray like most of us were for years.
I respect that. It helps the martial arts community a lot.
Where I get off the train is in the assumption of ill-motive in the study and teaching of these things, but like Dan I am a product of MY experience in that regard. My grandfather had a maxim and it has stood me in good stead in a working environment where real frauds and cheats actually have to be brought to ground.

"Never ascribe to malice what stupidity will explain."

It is more charitable to allow that the ignorance or conceptual limitations in which they worked, worked against them than to assume they leveraged limitations in ways that were abusive of trust. Either way, remove the conceptual limitations and both problems tend to be corrected more easily -- and real frauds have even fewer places to hide. Dan's approach to the problem of that ( real or perceived) abuse of trust actually requires far MORE personal trust than a more analytic and critical approach.

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
--- if you want to get better faster you have to train with folks who are a lot better than you, whatever the skill. They tend to hold things to a more greatly refined standard. I've also noticed what little I've learned of aikido fades a bit when I don't practice it regularly, so I completely agree with what you're saying about hands-on tune ups.
What matters more than anything is that you demand more of yourself -- mentally and physically, and try to rely on your teacher less and less for cooking your dinner, apart from providing the ingredient selections of the day).

Learning physical skills is like anything else -- without labeled buckets to store information, it gets easily lost, confused or over-written. One can only more slowly gain sensitivity in sensation and criticality in movement (which no one here disagrees is necessary) without ways to more closely distinguish between them.

The analytic and intellectual comprehension is not at odds or a substitute for the physical, it is a part of the making the whole more refined and sharp, and less ambiguous and confusing. Unlike Dan, I do not believe it was intended to be confusing by most teachers, it just had no other good way to be, at least in Western terms.

It need not stay that way. And nobody yet refuted my observation about the proffered good example of Mifune's "grounding" method.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 08-05-2008, 11:25 PM   #36
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

Thanks all for the great advise!

No just feel, train and train!

Cheers,
 
Old 08-06-2008, 12:00 AM   #37
DH
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

HI Erick
I think you mistated my points there, bud. I agree that part of it is abuse of trust-but only part. I have stated many times that it is sometimes a teacher not knowing how to teach any other way then to hold back till you advance. Other times they may just not know how to teach, and other times...
they just don't know.
I think intentional misuse is far lower. but then we have Petes article about the Omote outside of Japan and the Ura of aikido held for Aikikai teachers. I would like to test that theory hands on. But none-the less it was stated. As a statement and model. It has several sharp business angles that can be exploited.
Anyway, I have expressed views much broader than its all a conspiracy of silence.
 
Old 08-06-2008, 07:16 AM   #38
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

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...but then we have Petes article about the Omote outside of Japan and the Ura of aikido held for Aikikai teachers. I would like to test that theory hands on.
In fairness to the Prof. he is talking about the details and nature of the history of the founder and the art -- NOT the training. In any event it has seemed that your criticisms have relied on questions about practice AT HOMBU, as much as they are about the overseas training, or so it has seemed to me.

As to the latter point, that can be taken up easily. Some of the Founder's deshi specifically desired to come HERE to train and teach somewhat independently (at some measure of initial disapproval of Hombu) -- notably (and vastly different in personal style) both Saotome and Chiba. Chiba I have trained with personally, and with senior students of Saotome, but never with himself. I believe Jim Sorrentino, one of those latter, has offered for you to come compare notes. He's very nice; I've even visited once at the Ballston dojo at Aikido of No.Va, though I doubt he would remember or recall me. You can get there within a block's walk by Metro, so you can get there completely by train from Boston. I think its three hour train ride, if I recall. Could be a day trip.

Sadly, we recall in these days of ballistic fuel prices that Gen. Sherman burnt our trains.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 08-06-2008 at 07:19 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 08-06-2008, 11:46 AM   #39
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

Where is the omote/ura article by Peter??

Cheers
 
Old 08-06-2008, 12:57 PM   #40
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

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In fairness to the Prof. he is talking about the details and nature of the history of the founder and the art -- NOT the training. In any event it has seemed that your criticisms have relied on questions about practice AT HOMBU, as much as they are about the overseas training, or so it has seemed to me.

As to the latter point, that can be taken up easily. Some of the Founder's deshi specifically desired to come HERE to train and teach somewhat independently (at some measure of initial disapproval of Hombu) -- notably (and vastly different in personal style) both Saotome and Chiba. Chiba I have trained with personally, and with senior students of Saotome, but never with himself. I believe Jim Sorrentino, one of those latter, has offered for you to come compare notes. He's very nice; I've even visited once at the Ballston dojo at Aikido of No.Va, though I doubt he would remember or recall me. You can get there within a block's walk by Metro, so you can get there completely by train from Boston. I think its three hour train ride, if I recall. Could be a day trip. .
Erick
You're kidding right? Day late and a dollar short. And you missed the point.
FWIW I have trained with several Shihan from the aikikai. I found them to be no trouble whatsoever and could stop them easily, and that was almost sixteen years ago when I was just starting to get this stuff. On the whole It was exactly why I left Aikido. They were stiff, and easy to connect to an control. I figured "If this is the best ya got...then see ya." I was taken aback that this supposedly soft art, was no where near what I considered to be soft. they were shoulder stiff, frame extenders. The lessor lights, were...lesser than them. I am sure you're convinced that there is something for -me- to gain by "comparing notes" in VA. -I was suggesting something far more substantial. If there was an ura to be had -as suggested - in some senior, internally developed researcher in Aikido- I would welcome a chance to test it and feel it up close and personal. All due respect-I'm not going to find anything like that in VA. They are just now starting down a road I started down almost twenty years ago. And I wish them well.
I was thinking of Japan and some senior researcher who would like to demonstrate his internals from within aikido and play; minus, politics, ego and the protectionist baggage you often run into. I would rather hook up with a guy like that, bent on perfecting himself and testing theories and personal study of what he was taught or gained later. That is more my style. That's the kind of guy I would want to "compare notes with", Erick. To prove out the depth, or at least potentials of internal skills possibly hidden in the art of Aikido.
 
Old 08-06-2008, 05:20 PM   #41
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

Hi Dan.
If there is someone like that in japan or china I would be amazed.

stan
 
Old 08-06-2008, 09:31 PM   #42
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

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Erick
You're kidding right? Day late and a dollar short. And you missed the point.
FWIW I have trained with several Shihan from the aikikai.
No, actually, I was pointing you to some who are acknowledged in their own ways to be somewhat maverick.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I found them to be no trouble whatsoever and could stop them easily, and that was almost sixteen years ago when I was just starting to get this stuff. On the whole It was exactly why I left Aikido. They were stiff, and easy to connect to an control. I figured "If this is the best ya got...then see ya."
Have you heard of sample selection bias ? If you haven't trained with them or their senior students, why don't you just say so? Over- generalization is, among other things, a statistical error, a logical fallacy and also, just plain wrong.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I am sure you're convinced that there is something for -me- to gain by "comparing notes" in VA. -I was suggesting something far more substantial. If there was an ura to be had -as suggested - in some senior, internally developed researcher in Aikido- I would welcome a chance to test it and feel it up close and personal.
Actually, I don't think there is an ura, or if there is, as Amdur suggests, it is right there in plain sight, hidden only by commonplace assumption. But, of course, I also don't think there was a second gunman.

Your stated interest does not run to gaining understanding of the thing itself, but only its successful uses, for you. Both the religious and the scientific mind cherish the illuminating error, not the opaque success. But enough of your philosophy, Horatio.

But, since those I mentioned are mavericks, if the "ura" you think to exist (in the sense of training method, vice historical account) were to be in the open here -- they are more likely to have brought and shared it. It was what you said you wanted.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I would rather hook up with a guy like that, bent on perfecting himself and testing theories and personal study of what he was taught or gained later. That is more my style.
And that is demonstrably a false statement. You consistently seek people here who are testing YOUR theories and seeking your ideal of perfection. It is my observation that you seek people who are already are in your own mold. Also, you essentially shout down anyone who has a view that you do not immediately comprehend. That does not make them right, but it doesn't make you right either.

It's not a complaint, just a true observation -- like those who work for "tolerance" by suppressing views deemed insufficiently "tolerant." There is a historical word for that, but I won't use it.

If even such a well understood phenomenon like magnetism can be understood in two completely different and irreconcilable conventions, Aiki is not presumptively subsumed in YOUR convention of understanding. A model can be controlled. Reality cannot -- and examples like magnetism show that it readily escapes our easy categories and models.

"Reality-based" training -- does not mean no rules nor does it mean a set of more aggressive, less carefully drawn rules. It means an honest examination of the reality of every element of the encounter, the principles that flow through them, and the whole of it together. I don't contend your approach is lacking in that regard. You do not reciprocate and have no basis other than your preconceptions to have adjudged otherwise. But I suppose if I were a proselyte of the doom you are here to save us from, I might judge more harshly.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 08-06-2008, 10:40 PM   #43
stan baker
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

why do people have to be in denial. I will say it in plain english so the smart ones can understand. If there is any body with stronger aiki power then Dan Harden please let me know. Maybe there is a powerful master in aikido that I do not know about.

stan
 
Old 08-07-2008, 06:50 AM   #44
mathewjgano
 
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

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Stan Baker wrote: View Post
why do people have to be in denial. I will say it in plain english so the smart ones can understand. If there is any body with stronger aiki power then Dan Harden please let me know. Maybe there is a powerful master in aikido that I do not know about.

stan
Denial about what? I'm missing your plain english point (admittedly the only thing smart about me is my behind ).
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 08-07-2008, 07:25 AM   #45
stan baker
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

Dan Harden has better aiki power then any of the shihans out there.

stan
 
Old 08-07-2008, 07:56 AM   #46
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

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Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Dan Harden has better aiki power then any of the shihans out there.
Well, all good and kudos to Dan for all he has done and continues to do. I must say though that it does not take much to be more sensible and less dumb than many shihans. I just heard tonight about another blowhard thickhead shihan at the honbu dojo, who advocated punching the partner who was giving "trouble" with nikkyo. I mean, how dumb can one get?!? Of course, the upshot was that the poor student who tried to follow this so-called advice got punched in the sternum and protested to his partner, who told him "well, if you're going to be punching I'm not just going to be standing there grabbing your wrist right? You're got to learn how to do nikkyo, not punch people when it doesn't work". He should have punched the stupid shihan as well. It's not so bad that the shihan is dumb (he'll age and go away), its awful that students have not frigging clue about what they are supposed to be learning.
 
Old 08-07-2008, 08:16 AM   #47
mathewjgano
 
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

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Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Dan Harden has better aiki power then any of the shihans out there.

stan
He may well indeed...And that's a fairly good number of people, I'd assume.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 08-07-2008, 09:15 AM   #48
DH
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

Whoa...Whaaat??
That's neither provable, germane or relevant to my point.
Stan has been around, and felt many top people in ICMA, Aikido and now the Daito ryu reps.. He is expressing his views and experiences and doesn't speak for me. Gees Stan.

Once again all this talk of fighting and punching and "reality based training" is a great mask for the real discussion and what I stated. Which was how interesting it would be to meet one of these "so called" ura trained Japanese Aikido guys who "got it." And secondly to meet one who was a non defensive researcher type that would be open to testing the depth of what they got in any parameter that would effectively test aiki, one to one.
Why people default to discussing punching and fighting is beyond me. Perhaps it expresses their level of understanding at this time. There is a way to display power without going at it guys. Where you been?
How odd that one would not be intrigued by the idea that there was an ura to aikido held to Japanese Shihan. Admittedly, I don't believe it will prove to have much hands-on value. I felt a couple of Ueshiba's Deshi and they sure as hell didn't have it. So if someone else figured it out-which is entirely possible, even probable- but is holding it to Japanese shihan I would be intrigued to see it, feel it, and see compare notes on their training methods and understanding. Seems a fairly inoccuous statement. I mean-who wouldn't?

Last edited by DH : 08-07-2008 at 09:19 AM.
 
Old 08-07-2008, 10:59 AM   #49
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

I have a new student that is displaying some very unusual power generation. She is ten years old. It feels a little bit like an unrefined version of what my sensei used to feel like. This should be interesting.
 
Old 08-08-2008, 12:21 PM   #50
Erick Mead
 
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Re: "Aiki" in Russian Video Clips

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Which was how interesting it would be to meet one of these "so called" ura trained Japanese Aikido guys who "got it." And secondly to meet one who was a non defensive researcher type that would be open to testing the depth of what they got in any parameter that would effectively test aiki, one to one. There is a way to display power without going at it guys... How odd that one would not be intrigued by the idea that there was an ura to aikido held to Japanese Shihan. Admittedly, I don't believe it will prove to have much hands-on value. I felt a couple of Ueshiba's Deshi and they sure as hell didn't have it. So if someone else figured it out-which is entirely possible, even probable- but is holding it to Japanese shihan I would be intrigued to see it, feel it, and see compare notes on their training methods and understanding. Seems a fairly inoccuous statement. I mean-who wouldn't?
And who wouldn't want to be right behind that guy that was crouched on that grassy knoll? I mean who knows what you could learn from him about what REALLY happened? IF only ...

Lesson is -- if you put anything out of context it loses meaning, and it needs to gain native context in its new setting in order to regain it. Nothing has been "hidden," it just does not stand in relief because the angle of the light is wrong. No conspiracy involved.

That is the nature of a growth process which always follows a transplantation. Those follow "S" curves. In the beginning of its new growth, there is actual retrenchment and loss of old growth, dieback and loss of real progress. Why? Because resources and accommodations to the new soil and its native organisms are being built up in the roots for future growth. Only after that is there sustainable growth with vigor and good fruit.

Patience water and light are required, not ripping the plant out see what's wrong with it in the places you can't ordinarily see (ura). "Grow, damn you, grow!" while beating the sapling with a stick is a poor response to the problem; as is paranoid imaginings about the neighbors secretly sneaking to poison your new tree; or cursing the guy you got it from selling you a weed tree just because it takes more time than you wanted to bear fruit.

Wanting to "display power" is a symptom of a disease that is endemic in modern society. It is not a personal cricitism as you are hardly alone in the tendency, which is shared by many people, many in very good company. Most never even really thought seriously about it. It is an instrumental approach to reality, things people, organizations or anything or anyone, as the servant of my desires, the means to my ends. The converse lies in seeking understanding of the thing in the value of its original nature apart from my purposes in using it for my ends -- even if I must and desire to do so. I've done plenty of that, seen plenty of it done and learned its costs.

You seem quite uninterested in discovering the nature of Aiki apart from its uses to display "your power." Some of us are trying to abandon that instrumentalist view of the world. One of the reasons that you demean me is that I do try not jump at the chances you present to display power. Thus, you frequently mischaracterize my inquiry to increase understanding of you and your approach to some presumed lack of ability or power -- because that is your ONLY focus. Dismiss me as having none if it suits you because I do not choose to be so childishly called out, quite frankly because I just don't care.

One lesson my first teacher taught me in training has stayed with me through a career in dealing with human conflict because of the larger lesson implied within it: "Smile, and never let him see the knife." For that, and other reasons, I have never had much interest in the age-old contest over which male's knife is bigger. The size of the knife matters not after it is lodged in its proper target. And my knife makes its target with fair regularity.

In your objective display of power, you may well be far better than I am or anybody I have or may ever train with. So? That is entirely beside the point. A gun or some other instrument of superior power fixes that little problem. I doubt that superior power is what aiki is really about. If Aiki is about anything, then MY power is beside the point. Real battles are not lost to lack of power, but to lack of knowledge.

The power of reality toward its own ends is beyond any I could achieve toward my own. That seems O Sensei's revelation, the orientation of which I perceive dimly and the one that I seek to know and follow. Indeed, warping that reality to my ends actually diminishes the power that is there to seek.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 

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