Violence Under the Pretext of Love

good post by don.

I would maybe add this. In my BJJ school our lessons are 2 hours- 1 hour technique, 1 hour sparring. It is very clear when it is time to drill and when it is time to resist/spar/go harder if that's what you want.

I wonder if not having that distinction can sometimes cause problems?

True, we have the same split, but sometimes beginners still have to be taught that when to do what and where.

Hi Charles,

Per Jun's concept of this board, I did not post the name of the individual whom I thought was a macho dillweed.



I'm glad you had a nice experience. Maybe my anonymous aggressor has matured in the last decade.

Sure John but you gave enough identifying information that it is obvious who you wrote about, not very anonymous I think. There are not many Seagal affliated dojo and only one in St. Louis. And it is possible for readers to forget that they were not there and you were. It is also possible to forget that we also only have your side of the story. That is why I felt I should give an alternative story of the man.

Regards
Charles

I like your story better than mine.

I wish I had a wonderful experience of community and harmony. It's what I went in hoping for. Frankly, I felt bitter at being confronted in such a nasty way when attempting to become a paying seminar participant. If I had a chance to live it again, I would choose not to go in.

Like I said, I'm glad you had a lovely time. I'm sorry that I left so many clues for you to follow. But I never mentioned any names.

Off to train now.

Jun,

Please remove the reference to Seagal affiliation in my previous post. I believe the rest is germane to the thread and non-identifying. It's not my intention to muck up your board with trash talkin', even if I am unhappy about an experience.

Thank you.

Yup, that will unring the bell.

There's a whole lot of aiko(loving protection) in this thread.

I really enjoyed the exchange above. Good stuff. Good people.
Thanks
Jen

I say add the name of the sensei. John's post IS germane and helpful to the topic. His opinion is important and may be helpful to someone reading this thread. That was his experience and what I wrote was mine. I also believe they don't necessarily contradict and both give info that may be helpful to some one who might have a chance to train with the individual mentioned.

Charles

Charles Hill wrote: I say add the name of the sensei. John's post IS germane and helpful to the topic. His opinion is important and may be helpful to someone reading this thread. That was his experience and what I wrote was mine. I also believe they don't necessarily contradict and both give info that may be helpful to some one who might have a chance to train with the individual mentioned. Charles

I was thinking about this last night and I have to agree with you. Personally, as long as a person is offering sincere impressions, I don't care what people have to say. Being able to see yourself through the eyes of another is one of the most useful things I've been able to encounter. It's also useful for others to hear first-hand accounts. My bet is that the sensei is actually a caring person and that it just came out wrong (for lack of a deeper explanation). My take on 99% of issues like this is that they are essentially lost in translation issues. I don't know one way or the other, but I've seen it enough among my own diverse group of friends and the only way the "bad vibes" were ever reconciled was through open discourse.
Anyway...that's my two bits offered at 4 am, so hopefully now I'm not miscommunicating.
Cheers all.
Matt

I would never hide the name of someone I was personally critiquing if I felt it added value to the discussion. I feel it would be wrong to say "X is a jerk because I heard he does this." However I see nothing wrong with "X is a jerk because when I trained with him, he did this."

I also have my share of stories about violent behaviour in martial arts training, both in kata based styles and in hard sparring ones, from simple bullying to attitude adjustments and everyting in the middle. From my personal experience, I wouldn't say that "alive" arts are less atractive to bullies but bullying in a, let's say, kickboxing gym requires more physical skill than in an aikido dojo.

In any case I'd like to point to some examples of what I consider unnecesary violence in MA training:

Shorinji Kempo. Starting at 4:15 mark.

Sumo. Starting at 2:12 mark.

For some people, the ends justify the means.

PS. And of course, remember this Shishida Fumiaki article at AJ.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: In any case I'd like to point to some examples of what I consider unnecesary violence in MA training: Shorinji Kempo. Starting at 4:15 mark.

I didn't really see anything amiss in the vid above. Can you point to exact areas where you consider unnecessary?

Thanks,
Mark

I think it's a bit of excess choking out a student (4:17) and the neck (5:10) and throat (5:44) forceful striking to demonstrate first aid techniques.

I've worked as occupational safety & health instructor for about 5 years and never found the need to choke a student to demonstrate Heinlich maneuver or CPR nor stabbing a student to teach him how emergency bleeding control is done. Never been done to me too, and I've been in the need of aplying first aid for real in "the street" so, imo, the SK instructor is being abusive.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: I think it's a bit of excess choking out a student (4:17) and the neck (5:10) and throat (5:44) forceful striking to demonstrate first aid techniques. I've worked as occupational safety & health instructor for about 5 years and never found the need to choke a student to demonstrate Heinlich maneuver or CPR nor stabbing a student to teach him how emergency bleeding control is done. Never been done to me too, and I've been in the need of aplying first aid for real in "the street" so, imo, the SK instructor is being abusive.

Ah, I see. I think you mistook the meaning of the video. I don't think they were demonstrating first aid techniques at all. They were demonstrating a martial aspect of strikes to vital points on the body. They were then stating that the instructor knew and used revival techniques because it was a dangerous type of training. At one point, it was noted that the instructor does not let his students practice this -- it was very advanced, I guess.

IMO, there was no abuse in the vid. If anything, I think the instructor was well trained for what he was teaching.

Mark

So last night I'm up late trying to get caught up with my work. I have a directv connection in my workshop and had it on IFC (I think) in the background with the volume off. Anyway, I'm polishing away kinda thinking about this thread when the 70's documentary "Budo -- the Art of Killing" came on. I turned the volume up and watched the initial segments about karate and Sumo and partway into the swordsmanship segments. I've seen it before, but I found it interesting indeed how the narrator brought up how the serious martial artists in Japan train with incredible intensity. And that at times their treatment is brutal or even cruel all as a means of forging ability and spirit...

Then I came in and watched the my new DVD of the first season of Dexter... The first episode. The guy who is a serial killer who only kills other serial killers... A guy who finds his way of feeding his psychotic needs while "helping" society...

Killing under the pretext of love?

And make no mistake -- the fella Dexter offs in the first episode deserved it, if anyone does.

It gave me a giggle (in a perverse fashion) how this thread, the documentary coming on, then me starting up the first season of Dexter all came together. The stars aligned last night...

Anyway, you can still get the "Budo" video here and there. I'd suggest it is a good thing to watch given this topic for some broader perspective. There is quite a strong tradition of some pretty tough training and treatment. And it would be quite easy for that tradition to get distorted especially by people who have that passive aggressive need to feel powerful by hurting others... Budo becomes quite an attractive venue for someone with those tendancies. Especially if cruelty in that context is seen to some extent as "acceptable". It would help satisfy that perverse need...

I think the largest issue is not necessarily violence under the pretext of love, but rather cruelty under the pretext of training.

As was pointed out earlier, there is a paradigm within full contact grappling such as BJJ and Judo that allows tit-for-tat violence, so one often finds people working fast and hard for position but then digging their locks in slower (give as good as you get, so give nicely). That's the general code of conduct that I've seen/experienced. However, in kata oriented martial arts, such as Aikido, and what I've experienced in Hapkido and Kuk Sool, one person is the designated receiver of the technique (Uke), and in a case where hierarchy matters and there may be personality issues, this can lead to disastrous abuse. This is especially true given that there is an ideal of the Uke (imaginary attacker) using an attack that ends up putting him/herself in jeopardy... the construct that the technique is driven by Uke's aggressiveness. It allows for a justified "payback", and I think that some folks may have enough emotional damage to take advantage of that construct. And those "below" them in rank will have to take it to hold onto their dojo community and their otherwise enjoyable practice (at least that has been my motivation for allowing inter-dojo -or dojang- violence against myself in the past, but not for many years).

Just some ramblin' thoughts in the ether...

Holy smokes. Just watched the Shorinji Kempo vid. That knock-out blow to the neck/base of the skull was hideous. I would be mad at myself for standing there trustingly and letting someone concuss me like that... and furious at the teacher for doing it. How many times does one Uke for THAT before developing serious motor skills impairment?

There's a range of kappo that are taught as part of Shorinji Kenpo. I don't know taht much about it but it looks like he is teaching kappo as part of the class. That's about he extent of my shornji kenpo knowlege...
fwiw

John Connolly wrote: Holy smokes. Just watched the Shorinji Kempo vid. That knock-out blow to the neck/base of the skull was hideous. I would be mad at myself for standing there trustingly and letting someone concuss me like that... and furious at the teacher for doing it. How many times does one Uke for THAT before developing serious motor skills impairment?

Ah that's nuttin John. My hit master me in the head that for y like ears and it never come doin no harm! It made me man Iam today and I do for my deshi just like same done for me and thay d*7m well better lovin it to o.

Now that Yamamoto ha fluffy bunny stuff, now that there is DANGEROUS killin art . . . makes your hair grow out funny, your toe-nails change colors and leads one to use Biblical last names and drink single malts! Bllllaaaa gives me the creeps just thinkin 'bout it!

John Connolly wrote: Holy smokes. Just watched the Shorinji Kempo vid. That knock-out blow to the neck/base of the skull was hideous. I would be mad at myself for standing there trustingly and letting someone concuss me like that... and furious at the teacher for doing it. How many times does one Uke for THAT before developing serious motor skills impairment?

I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. I'm sorry I didn't hear you. I'm sorry I didn't hear you. I'm sorry I didn't hear you.

Ha-ha,
jen

Too many atemi to the ears...

Allen, yer write! Us'ns at the ol' Yammermotorpool is da beastie types and full o vinegar an' some other liquid usually.

Jer, I dig the construct of the kappo lesson in the SK vid. But that is a concussive blow with out a doubt. Repetition of that does lead to impairment. I think it's a bit cruel to show it off on a live subject. A dummy would work fine. I suppose the exception is if the uke was so disbelieving and wanted, directly asked for, a demo on himself (and understood the physiological implications). Then, I guess it's between consenting adults, so whatever. Dif'rent strokes and all that.

Is that a concussive blow or is that a blow to the brachial nerve complex in the neck......I don't have enough medical knowledge to ascertain the different effects.

My take was that it was a blow to the brachial nerve plexus and his hand sort of wrapped to the back of the neck. If you catch the vid right, you can see where the hit really takes place. If done right, it's not a blow to the back of the head/neck nor is it concussive. What I've been told/shown anyway. YMMV, I guess.

Vagus sinus reflex... and it didn't need to be that "hard"... even though it was a relaxed strike.... I've seen and felt better ones which were far more impressive considering it was done without a wind up.