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Old 08-16-2008, 06:03 PM   #176
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Re: Atemi applications

No, I don't mean that at all. I mean what I show on my videos, not what is shown on other videos. Please, respect this.

Quote:
I think there is a very sound tactical reasoning behind not staying on the line of attack.
I never stay in line of the attack, except for the initial position in gotai. But there, too, my first movement always includes a taisabaki evasive movement. I thought it was visible on my videos.

Quote:
This may be Boon's point - if I'm reading him correctly.
You seem to be reading a lot into Boon's post. I don't know.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 08-16-2008, 06:35 PM   #177
salim
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Re: Atemi applications

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
Do you mean like these strikes tried to stop the forward progress of the person closing the gap here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlleDPgmDVM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIn3nQbobtE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCv8wClAC38
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDz76O6r1ow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAhyB1xFuKM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhjn7i-JDks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIavZZRKFSA

I think there is a very sound tactical reasoning behind not staying on the line of attack. In my experience, it's directly related to timing being difficult, mass and inertia often being on the other attacker's side, accuracy never being guaranteed, etc.

When I lived through the Gracie world exposure, I saw it being based not only on the specialty of their technique/the general world ignorance of ground-fighting, but also saw it based upon an ignorance of strikers regarding their own tactics. That is to say, what made BJJ so successful early on was not only a general ignorance regarding ground-fighting on the part of non-practitioners but also a striker's ignorance regarding how to strike without opening oneself up to having the gap closed on them (taking them out of their striking game). Once strikers (re)figured this part of their own tactics out, the story changed a bit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJmUmaSBja8

For me, the standing in front and striking, expecting the strikes to stop the forward progress of the attacker, is not only not akin to general Aikido tactics but not at all enlightened to the truth the Gracie's were kind enough to share with the world at large. For me, I would not adopt it either as a practitioner or as a teacher. This may be Boon's point - if I'm reading him correctly.
David,

Thank you for posting those clips. Those videos, should be a huge warning to every Aikidoka regarding static movements or concentrating on flowing Aikido dance demonstrations. Funny how the pretty, very fancy Karate, Kung Fu guys were complete helpless once outside of their comfort zone of static movements. Really a shame most Aikidoka are delusional about the realities of self defense. I enjoyed.
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Old 08-16-2008, 07:06 PM   #178
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Re: Atemi applications

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
No, I don't mean that at all. I mean what I show on my videos, not what is shown on other videos. Please, respect this.

I never stay in line of the attack, except for the initial position in gotai. But there, too, my first movement always includes a taisabaki evasive movement. I thought it was visible on my videos.

You seem to be reading a lot into Boon's post. I don't know.
It may be true, I may be misreading Boon's post. I guess he can chime in if he likes. I hope he does.

That aside, I still hold to the position that one needs to or should move off the line of attack. To be clear, by line of attack, I am not just referring to the vector of the striking limb but rather to the entire line upon which is traveling the attacker's mass (the rest of his/her body). In your first technique, the one I was mainly posting those clips in relation to, it looks very much like you allowed your body to stay on the same line as the attacker's body. That works all well and good if your attack does not continue to penetrate and/or if you hold that your strikes are adequate enough to stop someone from penetrating further. For me, it's a lot to ask of an attacker that he/she stops penetrating in their aggression. For striking period, it's a lot to ask that strikes always stop an attacker from continuing to penetrate (hence, the video clips).

Again, this may or may not be Boon's point.

David M. Valadez
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Old 08-16-2008, 08:10 PM   #179
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Re: Atemi

Perhaps Sempai does it a bit different but I did not get the idea that he was standing there in the line of attack. I understood everything Stefan was trying to show.

My experience is to enter and finish and I think Dan Hardin and some other suggested the same with the noteworthy observation that most Aikido has evolved to the point where Aikidoka can no longer effectively do this.

Every clip I have seen of O Sensei and most of his direct students show folks seeing an opening and moving to finish. I think some folks get so caught up in "hand grabbing" they no longer understand or have any experience with Irimi or Kokyu. O'Sensei and some of these Yudansha knew exactly how and when to do this and sadly this part may be lost to Modern Aikido. That is one of the reasons perhaps that Tomiki, Shioda, and Nishio stressed Atemi

Perhaps it has to do again with sword/weapons based Aikido. While it is true Ken te Ken or Jo te Ken has no real application "to the street" The baseline goal is end the conflict quickly preferably (in our philosophy) at the moment of contact. It's not a good Idea to "box" or "grapple" with edged weapons or oak if you know what I mean. LOL

That is the purpose of Atemi. However there are many ways to use this essential tool in the execution of a technique.

Practicing this way involves serious commitment to gain any results.
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Old 08-16-2008, 10:02 PM   #180
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Re: Atemi

"Perhaps Sempai does it a bit different but I did not get the idea that he was standing there in the line of attack. I understood everything Stefan was trying to show."

Well, if I am "sempai" here, I've been wrong before. But, if I'm understanding the strikes and their targets correctly, with them being located on the attacker's centerline, and they all being targeted with Stefan's right arm, his (Stefan's) body is on the same line as the attacker's body. If this is not accurate, I sure would like to see the same striking combination in a video where the camera is positioned behind Stefan. That would assist me greatly in getting things right.

Please/thanks,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 08-16-2008, 10:30 PM   #181
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
But, if I'm understanding the strikes and their targets correctly, with them being located on the attacker's centerline, and they all being targeted with Stefan's right arm, his (Stefan's) body is on the same line as the attacker's body. If this is not accurate, I sure would like to see the same striking combination in a video where the camera is positioned behind Stefan. That would assist me greatly in getting things right.
I can see that it's unclear because of the angle, but I do step to the side on the first set of atemi on the video - actually not once, but four times, with each new atemi. By the way, the first atemi is with my left arm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW_oQEiXgWQ

That kind of atemi series I learned from Nishio sensei, who certainly did those things immensely more competently. His taisabaki steps and atemi can be seen (unarmed and armed) in the set of five videos from a seminar in my dojo that I posted on YouTube, starting with this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEZWojpNnao

On the following examples in the video with me, my taisabaki steps to the side are quite evident, aren't they? Only on the last technique, the chudan maegeri, there's no step to the side. That one is a playful reminder that an attacker cannot be certain about what kind of technique the defender will or will not do.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 08-17-2008, 02:59 PM   #182
Aikibu
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
"Perhaps Sempai does it a bit different but I did not get the idea that he was standing there in the line of attack. I understood everything Stefan was trying to show."

Well, if I am "sempai" here, I've been wrong before. But, if I'm understanding the strikes and their targets correctly, with them being located on the attacker's centerline, and they all being targeted with Stefan's right arm, his (Stefan's) body is on the same line as the attacker's body. If this is not accurate, I sure would like to see the same striking combination in a video where the camera is positioned behind Stefan. That would assist me greatly in getting things right.

Please/thanks,
dmv
No worries..Actually David I was referring to Stefan as Sempai since he has been practicing Nishio Aikido much longer than I have.

William Hazen
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Old 08-17-2008, 10:58 PM   #183
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Re: Atemi

To StefanS :

When I see the video, I see a uke who comes in like a robot with a one step punch. I hope to see a more "aliveness" (cliche word, I know) uke. Yes, the tori is able to do those multiple strikes on uke because I see that the uke allows it so, should the uke is actively trying to dodge and strike back, will you be able to repeat what you did in those kata' esque way?

To GreggB
Jutte in my mind means Baton or baton like weapon... if the term meant something else, I apologize for using the wrong word. In real life, these baton-like training tools can represent machete, cleaver, wooden 2x4 block or any one-handed hacking tools.

To DavidV,
My point was as above i.e., addressed to StefanS. I meant that in the clip, tori was able to do all those multiple strikes because uke allows him to do so.

What would I have done?
Left jabs x 2, one right crosst aimed at lower left mandible and a shomen-ate if uke allows me... all in kata'esque form of course.

Thank you guys for paying attention to my post.

Boon.

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Old 08-18-2008, 01:53 AM   #184
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
should the uke is actively trying to dodge and strike back, will you be able to repeat what you did in those kata' esque way?
Yes
That's why each atemi is done with a new taisabaki.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 08-18-2008, 03:04 AM   #185
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
...<snip>...What this says to me, is that the atemi (or potential for atemi), should be indistinguishable from the continuum and flow of the technique. I.e. at any point within the execution of the technique, one is poised to strike at any time.

Further, he writes that atemi itself is the manifestation of kokyu. Using the 2nd technique (sayunage/sokumen irimi nage) in Stefan's video as an example... even though it is clearly for demo purposes, that elbow strike, perhaps done at a more "realistic" pace, should be virtually indistinguishable from the technique itself... IOW, hidden in plain sight. If Stefan had simply performed the technique as the intended aikido technique, but with the intent of hitting uke with his elbow, or perhaps, positioning himself into the entry such that uke ran into his elbow, what it would look like, should be virtually indistinguishable from one as is normally done, without the obvious atemi.
Teo, has said it better than me, he is more eloquent. To me, atemi in aikido should be more along this line of thought rather than those ala kempo flavour i.e., many continuous punches

Boon

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Old 08-18-2008, 04:55 PM   #186
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Using the 2nd technique (sayunage/sokumen irimi nage) in Stefan's video as an example... even though it is clearly for demo purposes, that elbow strike, perhaps done at a more "realistic" pace, should be virtually indistinguishable from the technique itself... IOW, hidden in plain sight. If Stefan had simply performed the technique as the intended aikido technique, but with the intent of hitting uke with his elbow, or perhaps, positioning himself into the entry such that uke ran into his elbow, what it would look like, should be virtually indistinguishable from one as is normally done, without the obvious atemi.
Funny. That's sort of what I thought I did

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 08-18-2008, 07:36 PM   #187
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Re: Atemi

Stefan,

I think one of the reasons atemi in aikido waza is hard to fathom is precisely what Ellis wrote - it is a manifestation of kokyu, and hidden in plain sight. IOW, what looks like a throw/lock, or at any point in the continuum prior to the throw/lock, the very manifestation of kokyu can be ate-waza in itself. Take hiji ate/zenpo nage for example... ate-waza to the elbow/tricep/tricep tendon or a throw?

So while it's a good thing that people like Nishio and yourself are showing the potential for ate-waza within aikido waza, Boon also has a point in that having a "kempo flavor" doesn't necessarily make it aikido ate-waza.

FWIW, I think the Shodokan folk have the right idea: http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10a.html

Of course, whether that's "right" or not is a matter of one's opinion.

Last edited by eyrie : 08-18-2008 at 07:39 PM.

Ignatius
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Old 08-18-2008, 08:16 PM   #188
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Re: Atemi

Part of the reason for the state of Aikido today is that good strong skilled attacks are never emphasized, so when we practice against it in the dojo it is unlike anything we would encounter in a violent situation. I am certainly not recommending violent attacks but I would recommend people learn well-controlled energetic attacks and that they venture into areas where they are not just in a completely controlled environment. You have to get out of that and we have what you call randori, I mean you have people coming and grabbing with two hands and are waiting to be thrown and it's not very realistic.
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Old 08-18-2008, 10:58 PM   #189
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Part of the reason for the state of Aikido today is that good strong skilled attacks are never emphasized, so when we practice against it in the dojo it is unlike anything we would encounter in a violent situation. I am certainly not recommending violent attacks but I would recommend people learn well-controlled energetic attacks and that they venture into areas where they are not just in a completely controlled environment. You have to get out of that and we have what you call randori, I mean you have people coming and grabbing with two hands and are waiting to be thrown and it's not very realistic.
Hey, Salim

Good point. BUT....... really good point and I read lots of arrrguements and things on that. I boil that down to intensity of training. Which is a person thing. If you don't want to train at that intense level that is ok. If you do want to that is ok too.

" waiting to be thrown and it's not very realistic." Well yes and no. Yes, outside of Japan in the 21th century people don't attack you like they did in Japan in the day. But some grabs still apply, but they not be in highly aggressive situations where the intensity is going to accelerate. Not everyone is going to face a ring fight situation. Say, a drunk grabs you for some odd reason in a restaurant and grabs you with both hands and starts pulling on your clothes as your walking to the restroom thinking you slept with is wife, are you going to take him to the ground and brake his arm? Are you going to punch him, or throw him to the ground? No of course not. There are levels of conflicts and in conflicts there are levels of intensity. Not all self-defense situations are life and death and don't require that intensity.

Training intensely, waiting to be thrown, not being realistic has another purpose, and that is to demonstrate artistic skill,mastery and perfection of technique, or for teaching purposes.

So a two handed grabbed waiting to be thrown isn't realistic today on the street, but that doesn't make it invalid because it has demonstrative purposes, and because in the day it was a realistic thing. A person in Japan stands there and grabs you, you think what a strong grip I better go along. Very much like the way it was around the early 1900s with the early Coppers who didn't carry guns or billys and grabbed a criminal by the collar arresting him and walked him to the station. The criminal without a fight complied. I seen old film footage of this happening many times from that time.

The way you train and the intensity level chosen to train at is a personal thing, and for personal reason. It isn't fair to criticize people because they choose a level of intensity comfortable to them for their purposes. To each is own.

I not trying to say your wrong, I am saying take a wider view on it and see the different perspectives, it may not be all that it seems to be.
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Old 08-18-2008, 11:29 PM   #190
Keith Larman
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Part of the reason for the state of Aikido today is that good strong skilled attacks are never emphasized, so when we practice against it in the dojo it is unlike anything we would encounter in a violent situation.
I've been kinda loitering through these posts for a while. I think the part that I find most annoying is the use of the words like "strong skilled attacks are never emphasized". Have you ever heard the expression "never say never"? Good lord, there are literally thousands of Aikido dojo in the US. Many different styles. Many different sensei with just as many different ideas. One distinctive feature of aikido in my experience is that there is a huge variety of practice ranging from fluffy aikibunny shooting ki balls stuff to firebreathing aikidragons tearing up ligaments. It may come as a shock to you but some out there do train at intense levels. No, you're not going to see it in beginning or intermediate classes where it is practiced but once you're well trained you will find it as some places. No, not everywhere, but some of us do push up the intensity to 11 and try to work to failure. You're not exactly the first person who has decided to push their own boundaries. Don't cha think maybe the problem isn't with Aikido as much as it is simply about different approaches and different goals? Not everyone wants to go there. Fine. More power to them. I like to push my own limits of my skills. And I've had the bruises and injuries to prove it. But that's just how I approach it. No better, no worse, just different. Aikido is vastly too diverse and vastly too far ranging to make such simplistic generalizations.

And the irony here is that I somewhat agree with the sentiment a bit. I think O-sensei had a level of prosaic intensity to back up his more poetic tendancies. The same is true of some of his deshi. And I think the same is still true today with some. I *personally* don't enjoy the more "aiki-bunny" styles but I fully understand its just because that's not for me. I enjoyed Judo. I enjoyed wrestling. I enjoyed busting stuff up in karate until I managed to hurt my hands badly. Now that I'm in my 40's I still enjoy intense practice, but I also appreciate the grace and elegance of well done aikido. I agree that it must have a substantial base upon which to rest. So all that said... I'm not exactly one of the aiki-bunny kinda guys (one of my sensei called me Anakin one day if that's any hint). But I do strongly and whole heartedly reject these sorts of absolute pronouncements. And the idea that one way is the only "correct" way. It just depends on how you want to get where you're going...

If you find the aikido you've taken to be empty or lacking the intensity you want, for god's sake leave and find someone more to your liking. But unless you've hit every style out there and trained with every sensei teaching it is pretty shallow and short sighted to make such sweeping generalizations.

Okay, I feel better now. Back to the regularly scheduled whining.

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Old 08-18-2008, 11:43 PM   #191
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
To StefanS :

When I see the video, I see a uke who comes in like a robot with a one step punch.
When using the sword (stroking, slashing, stabbing) you multiply the speed of the attack. The "hand strike" cannot ever equal the velocity of the point of the sword.

The defense comes in ignoring the tip of the sword by going inside to the forearm, elbow and shoulder. The fist only attempts to approximate the speed of the tip of the sword.

As such, the elbow and shoulder are stationary. They are true targets that an adept attacks and manipulates.

As such, it doesn't matter how fast or lively the punch comes. What matters, is how one enters to attack the slow moving forearm, elbow and shoulder.

Even more interesting, is that once you "practice" against the sword, your eye becomes attuned to its velocity...and when this happens all punches coming at you are slow in comparison.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

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Old 08-19-2008, 01:55 AM   #192
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
When using the sword (stroking, slashing, stabbing) you multiply the speed of the attack. The "hand strike" cannot ever equal the velocity of the point of the sword.

The defense comes in ignoring the tip of the sword by going inside to the forearm, elbow and shoulder. The fist only attempts to approximate the speed of the tip of the sword.

As such, the elbow and shoulder are stationary. They are true targets that an adept attacks and manipulates.

As such, it doesn't matter how fast or lively the punch comes. What matters, is how one enters to attack the slow moving forearm, elbow and shoulder.

Even more interesting, is that once you "practice" against the sword, your eye becomes attuned to its velocity...and when this happens all punches coming at you are slow in comparison.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
An absolutely spot on perfect description of Shoji Nishio's Aikido Practice Paradigm Thank You Joseph.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 08-19-2008 at 01:57 AM.
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:39 AM   #193
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Smile Re: Atemi

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
An absolutely spot on perfect description of Shoji Nishio's Aikido Practice Paradigm Thank You Joseph.

William Hazen
William,

Thank you...

I applaud your continued efforts to "battle" the wordsmiths. Your statements are borne out of your "technique" on the floor and your "technique" as it continues to be applied in your life.

Go get'em

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

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Old 08-19-2008, 11:12 AM   #194
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Part of the reason for the state of Aikido today is that good strong skilled attacks are never emphasized, so when we practice against it in the dojo it is unlike anything we would encounter in a violent situation. I am certainly not recommending violent attacks but I would recommend people learn well-controlled energetic attacks and that they venture into areas where they are not just in a completely controlled environment. You have to get out of that and we have what you call randori, I mean you have people coming and grabbing with two hands and are waiting to be thrown and it's not very realistic.
Sometimes theyre waiting because they don't know how to fall without breaking their necks or getting stepped on by their fellow attackers. In the dojo and on the street. From my experience.

In a violent situation on the street, I was able to dissuade my attackers, after freaking the hell out of one of them, by looking at them with the complete confidence of a person who had trained randori vigorously. Their bodies were untrained, I could see that. They couldn't have gotten a hand on me once I started to move toward them, I could see that. I guess they could see in my eyes and energy that I was 'comfortable' in the enviroment.
They recoiled and ran. That was from training in aikido.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 08-19-2008, 05:27 PM   #195
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
I've been kinda loitering through these posts for a while. I think the part that I find most annoying is the use of the words like "strong skilled attacks are never emphasized". Have you ever heard the expression "never say never"? Good lord, there are literally thousands of Aikido dojo in the US. Many different styles. Many different sensei with just as many different ideas. One distinctive feature of aikido in my experience is that there is a huge variety of practice ranging from fluffy aikibunny shooting ki balls stuff to firebreathing aikidragons tearing up ligaments. It may come as a shock to you but some out there do train at intense levels. No, you're not going to see it in beginning or intermediate classes where it is practiced but once you're well trained you will find it as some places. No, not everywhere, but some of us do push up the intensity to 11 and try to work to failure. You're not exactly the first person who has decided to push their own boundaries. Don't cha think maybe the problem isn't with Aikido as much as it is simply about different approaches and different goals? Not everyone wants to go there. Fine. More power to them. I like to push my own limits of my skills. And I've had the bruises and injuries to prove it. But that's just how I approach it. No better, no worse, just different. Aikido is vastly too diverse and vastly too far ranging to make such simplistic generalizations.

And the irony here is that I somewhat agree with the sentiment a bit. I think O-sensei had a level of prosaic intensity to back up his more poetic tendancies. The same is true of some of his deshi. And I think the same is still true today with some. I *personally* don't enjoy the more "aiki-bunny" styles but I fully understand its just because that's not for me. I enjoyed Judo. I enjoyed wrestling. I enjoyed busting stuff up in karate until I managed to hurt my hands badly. Now that I'm in my 40's I still enjoy intense practice, but I also appreciate the grace and elegance of well done aikido. I agree that it must have a substantial base upon which to rest. So all that said... I'm not exactly one of the aiki-bunny kinda guys (one of my sensei called me Anakin one day if that's any hint). But I do strongly and whole heartedly reject these sorts of absolute pronouncements. And the idea that one way is the only "correct" way. It just depends on how you want to get where you're going...

If you find the aikido you've taken to be empty or lacking the intensity you want, for god's sake leave and find someone more to your liking. But unless you've hit every style out there and trained with every sensei teaching it is pretty shallow and short sighted to make such sweeping generalizations.

Okay, I feel better now. Back to the regularly scheduled whining.
"Aikido Masters Volume 1, Shioda Sensei said today's Aikido was dimensionless, empty of content and nothing more than an imitation of the real thing."

"Really Something to think about" Someone of his stature saying that, wow! Not my words, but someone with Aikido authority. I think I will listen to Sensei Shioda.
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Old 08-19-2008, 05:32 PM   #196
Keith Larman
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
"Aikido Masters Volume 1, Shioda Sensei said today's Aikido was dimensionless, empty of content and nothing more than an imitation of the real thing."

"Really Something to think about" Someone of his stature saying that, wow! Not my words, but someone with Aikido authority. I think I will listen to Sensei Shioda.
Would that apply to his Aikido as well?

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Old 08-19-2008, 05:38 PM   #197
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Would that apply to his Aikido as well?

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 08-19-2008, 06:31 PM   #198
Aikibu
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
"Aikido Masters Volume 1, Shioda Sensei said today's Aikido was dimensionless, empty of content and nothing more than an imitation of the real thing."

"Really Something to think about" Someone of his stature saying that, wow! Not my words, but someone with Aikido authority. I think I will listen to Sensei Shioda.
Nostradamus said the world was going to end in 1999....

Oooops.

William Hazen
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Old 08-19-2008, 08:01 PM   #199
Will Prusner
 
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
"Really Something to think about" Someone of his stature saying that...
Wait, are we talking about his height or his rank?

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:56 PM   #200
salim
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Re: Atemi

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William Prusner wrote: View Post
Wait, are we talking about his height or his rank?
Come on!!!!!!!
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