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Old 01-28-2002, 10:29 AM   #1
Arianah
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Something Important to Remember

I just read this article, and in light of some of the "I would kill an attacker" posts and threads I've read on here, just thought it would be something important for everyone to remember.

Arianah

http://martialarts.about.com/library...y/aa011102.htm
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Old 01-28-2002, 11:04 AM   #2
Jim ashby
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Interesting

Here in the UK we have a legal precedent called "reasonable force". It depends on the Judge (usually older than a rock and an upper class chinless wonder) and the jury (usually thicker than the entire big print version of the encyclopaedia britannica) as to whether the force used is considered reasonable. Get the best lawyer you can if you are involved in violence and HAVE to use your knowledge.Walk away if you can. Been there, done that, got the scars and T shirt.
Have fun.

Vir Obesus Stola Saeptus
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Old 01-28-2002, 08:14 PM   #3
Mares
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Re: Interesting

That was an interesting article. I have a question to pose though. When do you become a martial artist? and when do stop becoming a martial artist?

Are you considered a martial artist after 2weeks of training or is it 2 years or is it when you get your black belt?. What happens if you stop training? how long after you stop training are you then no longer considered a martial artist?

Does the law take into account any martial arts training? Is it stricter on martial artists? or is it purely that reasonable force thing?

Regards
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Old 01-28-2002, 08:24 PM   #4
PeterR
 
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Re: Re: Interesting

Quote:
Originally posted by Mares
That was an interesting article. I have a question to pose though. When do you become a martial artist? and when do stop becoming a martial artist?
Really good question.

What level of training, what dedication.

Having seen the truely dedicated I don't consider myself a martial artist although I practice the martial arts.

Is this the same question as are you an Aikidoka?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-28-2002, 10:31 PM   #5
Edward
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I think the most crucial paragraph in the whole article is the following:

"Martial arts training gives you the confidence to walk away from an argument before it escalates into a fight. Knowing that you have the ability to physically handle your opponent means that you can react calmly and with presence, without getting angry.

Anger, which can enhance performance by increasing adrenal levels, clouds judgment. The best martial artists are eerily calm, even when fighting. Anger interferes with selecting the right technique and the execution of that technique."

This could apply to any person, whether into martial arts or not. But it is especially true for aikido because this is exactly what my teachers have been trying to teach me from the beginning. My own principle is never to fight and I've been successful so far in applying this principle. But if fighting becomes unavoidable, and if I do get the upper-hand, which would really surprise me , I think the wisest thing to do is to disappear from the scene before the police comes

(Of course if I am the one who gets beaten, I'll wait for the police and sue the ******* )

Cheers,
Edward
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Old 01-29-2002, 08:05 AM   #6
Arianah
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mares
Does the law take into account any martial arts training? Is it stricter on martial artists? or is it purely that reasonable force thing?
Maybe the law (if it doesn't already) should be more strict on martial artists. Essentially, when you are training, you are being handed the ability to cause harm. This is like having a weapon. Having a gun can help give you the upper hand in a fight; training can also do this. But if you have a gun, you have to know when it is proper to use it and when it is excessive. The responsibility should be placed on the martial artist to know how much is too much. (Though I've read posts that stated that one should "show no mercy" )

If you have training, you should be able to know exactly how much harm you can inflict, whereas an untrained person may be surprised by the amount of damage s/he can do (I'm sure that the man in the article was shocked by the fact that he had killed the referee, and had no intent.) When you were a kid, did you ever hit one of your friends playfully, and s/he started crying? We can often do more damage than we think, and it is our job to know exactly how much force to use when we are being taught effective (and deadly) fighting skills.

I would (in many ways) hope that martial ability be taken into account by the law--just as other advantages like size or weapons--in events like this.
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Old 01-29-2002, 01:56 PM   #7
Jacques
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arianah


Essentially, when you are training, you are being handed the ability to cause harm. This is like having a weapon. Having a gun can help give you the upper hand in a fight; training can also do this.

Hi Arianah,

I agree with above statement. When we are training whether it is in karate, aikido, tae kwon do, etc. our instructors give us the knowledge of how to protect ourselves.

However, in all the Martial arts that I have been practising in (Karate and aikido), a lot of control is used during the execution of a technique. None of us wants to hurt our training partners so we control the techniques.

When it comes to live or death situations where we have to defend ourselves, I think very few of us really knows what kind of damage we can do to our assailant.

I have never been in an actual situation where I needed to defend myself and I do not no whether I will be able to defend myself or be beaten up. I think our instinct to survive will take over in such a situation and we will react purely on instinct and reflexes.

In a situation as described in the article, it would have been better to walk away from the confrontation. This was not a live and death situation and I think that martial artists and the Law must be able to differentiate between these situations.

I will do everything in my power not to be drawn into a fight, but when my live is on the line, I will defend myself with everything I have and that includes my martial arts knowledge.

aikido greetings
jacques

Masakatsu Agatsu
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Old 01-29-2002, 02:29 PM   #8
shihonage
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jacques

I have never been in an actual situation where I needed to defend myself and I do not no whether I will be able to defend myself or be beaten up. I think our instinct to survive will take over in such a situation and we will react purely on instinct and reflexes...

...when my live is on the line, I will defend myself with everything I have and that includes my martial arts knowledge.
That, or you will be stupified by the andrenaline rush and tunnel vision caused by your increased heartbeat rate, and stand there like a deer caught in headlights.
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Old 01-29-2002, 08:45 PM   #9
Mares
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I have a differing opinion to other on this thread. I don't feel that martial artists should be treated any different under law. That whole reasonable force thing comes into play, and that is a whole gray area I guess. But why should a martial artist be treated different? If you have the courage to train in a martial art inorder to proteect yourself why should you be disadvantaged under law. I believe all people should show restraint during confrontation, why should it be restricted to martial artists. If someone abuses you and you decide to react with violence then you should be prepared to accept the consequences under law, martial artist or not.

I throw this example in, in fear of being ridiculuded. But anyway, if I am a black belt in a martial art and some moron tries to knock my block off, and if I manage to pin him to the ground and he ends up with a few bruises and scratches etc. Then it all goes to court etc, and I get say 100 hours communtiy service. If I wasn't a martial artist should I only get say 50 hours community service or perhaps nothing at all? Is my burden more simply because I chose to protect myself and train in a martial art?

Forgive me for that is a rather lame example but please go with the flow and be kind. Then of course the next question is What is a martial artist?
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Old 01-30-2002, 08:58 AM   #10
Arianah
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mares
That whole reasonable force thing comes into play, and that is a whole gray area I guess. But why should a martial artist be treated different?
I think that, certainly you should be held accountable for any harm you cause no matter what, but I also feel that in some ways you should "know better" if you've been trained. (I'm not completely black and white with my views on this issue either.)

Reasonable force, I believe does play into this, because martial artists (and, no, I don't know how to define it ) have the potential to cause more harm, more efficiently than someone who's just flailing their arms hoping to hit someone. Whether or not the law is involved, anyone who is trained should understand the kind of damage they can do, and act more accordingly than any jerk on the street.

But, that's just me . . .
Sarah
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Old 01-30-2002, 10:45 AM   #11
Chocolateuke
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Confused

I wonder if the author of that artical is a martial artist himself. anyone know? and although he does say that martial artist do have an advatage in gaining upperhand and training he has no real proof no examples and he never said if he has seen that done or used in such a way. He also says that we should just walk away. I agree but you cant always walk away. He doesn't give any account if the refferie was a martial artist or not he sais he pined him and proceded to beat the other man, but, he never said if the ref knew any martial arts. My brother could do the same and he studies no martail arts what so ever.

Dallas Adolphsen
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Old 01-30-2002, 11:46 AM   #12
Arianah
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The author is a martial artist, I believe (I think he's the one who does the martial arts section of about.com). He states in the article that neither one of the men was trained in a martial art, but is just using the story to prove a point.
Sarah
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Old 01-30-2002, 12:34 PM   #13
guest1234
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I can see there being some lively court discussion on the definition of 'martial artist', but there are some no-brainers: if you teach (prosecutor: 'wouldn't it be fair to assume a certain level of proficiency is required before you can teach others...'), especially if it is your sole support (p:'how much do you make a year teaching this art to others, how many trips do you take, etc'), if you have written books or articles...heck, maybe even those of us who are quite bad at it, but post a lot on boards like this... and I'd take into account any future statements along the lines of 'kill the SOB who tries to mess with my family, etc---yes, I know, none of you write that ever---I'm sure there is premeditation in there somewhere....).

Do I think it is fair? to some degree, yes. Same as if a pro boxer beats up someone. Same as I'm sure they would hold me as a physician if I did something I know better than to do when rendering first aid on the roadside... you are expected to perform to the level of your training. If you know how to really injure someone, it would be best if you did not or it will be hard to show that you didn't mean to do it...
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Old 01-30-2002, 01:40 PM   #14
Erik
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In the case mentioned, Junta had control of the fight (on top and much, much larger) but was out of control in the context of the fight. I think the problem here wasn't the fight but that once he had control he started pounding on the guy and didn't let him up which ultimately led to his killing the referee. Additionally, there was a verbal confrontation which escalated into the fight. Selling a self-defense plea here would be almost impossible in my opinion because of the build up and the fact that he didn't kill the man until he had control. I can understand the idea of an adrenaline rush but it's going to be awful hard to convince a jury specifically chosen because they have no combat experience, no fighting experience, no MA experience or any experience relevant to the event that this can happen.

While I agree with most of the article, it's quite a leap to apply the Junta case to martial artists. I also agree with the verdict.

One other note. My understanding (someone correct me if I'm wrong) is that here in California a black belt is required to teach MA in public schools. So, in effect, the barrier is pretty low in some cases and I can imagine this carrying over into a court of law.

Last edited by Erik : 01-30-2002 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 02-01-2002, 05:25 PM   #15
Kenshin75
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In my experience, martial arts does not make you some kind of superhuman fighting machine ( Dispite what Hollywood depicts )And that I think is what the none martial community thinks of when they see martial arts. Therefore they belive, that in a confrontation martial artists are Always better than the Non-trained. There have been countless stories of "Joe Blackbelt" getting slammed on the streets, by "Joe Gang-banger", or "joe Car-jacker". Many martial artists ( not all, by any means ) Have never been in a real nasty fight in the uncontroled environment of the street. while many would be attackers have loads of experience in that realm. So its my opinion, that martial training if done right gives you an edje yes, but a definitave victory .. No. So in cases where you must defend yourself.. the law should not differntiate between the two... But In the case mentioned.. I think any well adjusted person would have known, that to fight over something so trivial as a game, is just silly.

just My Opinion.. take it as that, and nothing more...
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Old 02-05-2002, 12:18 AM   #16
dc20
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OK, I can't stand it anymore. Been lurking here for a while, but I have to jump in on this one. I've been practicing aikido for about 5 months now, and I make my living as a cop. My job requires me to put my hands on people on a fairly regular basis. No matter what tools you use in a confrontation (hands, spray, baton, gun), when you go to court you had better be able to articulate why you used the amount of force you used. And you had better be able to convince a judge and jury that you were reasonable in your use of force. Key words here are "articulate" and "reasonable". These are fairly universal measures of appropriateness of force. Bottom line is that you must be sure that the force you use is indeed necessary, and that you can explain yourself satisfactorily.

Dave
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