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Old 07-16-2008, 08:56 AM   #101
ChrisMoses
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

That vid of Takeda Sensei is genuinely shocking. I've never seen anything like that from him before. I can't help but wonder (hope?) that it was done as a statement on the event itself rather than an actual demo of what he's capable of. Maybe? Please?

Great posts by Ellis and Peter too.

Chris Moses
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Old 07-16-2008, 09:22 AM   #102
Allen Beebe
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

I was taught that, since potentially 50% of one's practice is spent as uke (a lot of accumulated time over the years), it makes sense that that time and effort would be best spent striving towards the achievement of one's Aikido goals. In that sense, Uke and Nage are not different . . . there is no distinction between "uke" and "nage" outside of the kata, and since "there are no kata in Aikido" . . .

(Quiet Peter . . . just take the fall )

Please notice that I left the goals of Aikido open for the individual to define according to their time and circumstance . . . as per O-sensei's example.

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 07-16-2008, 09:50 AM   #103
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

I agree Allen... greetings from Monroe, WA, by the way. I finally made the move. I also agree with Chris - great posts from Ellis and Peter. (I'm in an agreeable mood this morning since I watched a couple hours of the O Sumo basho last night after the Comcast folks got me hooked up.)

Of course, as I've been told many times, we Jiyushinkai folks don't do "aikido", but we do have tandoku renshu and sotai gata geiko as tools for learning and teaching kihon that is based on what Ellis' teacher told him. Even in the kata yakusoku, uke's role is to cause problems that tori must solve and not be "easy." Of course the levels of "I'm not going to let you do that" should be appropriate to the skill levels involved. Then our randori is all about "I'm not gonna let you get me... I'm gonna get you"... until something happens that is decisive. I try my best to make that happen in one action. If that doesn't happen, then we're both learning new lessons. I think our real job is to continue to give each other problems to solve and learn from the process until we die. I do not want any "sensitive uke" that aren't trying to continue to give me those problems... even in public demos. Anything else seems demeaning to the art and our trust in each other.

Great stuff to wake up to this morning. Thanks to all.

Chuck Clark
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Old 07-16-2008, 10:17 AM   #104
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Congratulations Chuck! Welcome to the "Great Northwest!" (O-Sumo on Comcast? Can you PM me the details? I just got basic so that PBS comes in clear . . . but Sumo . . . now that's tempting!! Sumo, beer, kaki-pea, saki ika and I'm in hog heaven!

Great to hear from you. And I agree, nice posts from Ellis and Peter as usual . . . no wonder they get paid to write!

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 07-16-2008, 10:40 AM   #105
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
That darn Josh and his Western mindset, if only he could be exposed to some Eastern thinking... (If you know Josh's background, you know why this is teh funnay).
Hi Christian,

Of course, I don't know either you or Josh. If you re-read my post you will see that I did not comment on Josh, per se. I did comment as to a particular method of analysis, calling it the "Western mindset" and applied it to the comments he made. This is no way says anything about Josh, only about the comments. As far as backgrounds go, he could be a 100% pure blooded native Japanese Buddhist Monk who has written books on Comparative Asian thought processes for all I know. That still wouldn't make the comments any less "Western minded" nor make him any more eastern minded. There is a saying that may ring true, "Those in the West may yearn for what is East, but no more so than Easterners Looking West.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I don't need to speak for Dan, but this simply isn't what he's talking about.
Sorry, Christian. I may be confused here, but my comments in that post were not to Dan.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Can you go into more detail about what your talking about here (in real physical terms)? I'm having a hard time imagining how this can happen in an Aikido scenario. I've had a lot of people try to describe to me what they were doing in terms like these, but they were always using subtle strategies and dynamics that had nothing to do with my happy place. This is not a meant as a straw man or rhetorical question, I'm trying to understand what you're saying here.
Christian, thanks for clarifying your intentions. The question is certainly very fair and particularly valid. I am basing my understanding and methods upon several instances where I was in imminent danger of being severely beaten or killed and converted these situations into something very different. These situations were with persons who I am sure have no qualms about doling out any level of punishment on their intended victims. I re-wrote this section three times, deleting each lengthy, detailed narrative one after the other. Without pounding out a chapter of a novel or inviting you into a dark corner of my interesting past, I will just spare everyone the details. So Christian, I guess you will have to be find your own happy place until we can meet up at some point and discuss it over some beer and sushi.

.

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Old 07-16-2008, 12:37 PM   #106
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
... Most people's understanding of what they are doing is thoroughly physical / mechanical. If, however, one does a lot of sword work, this level of connectivity makes perfect sense. ...
Absolutely fantastic post. The whole post was great, just didn't want repost the whole thing, even though it's worth repeating.


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Old 07-16-2008, 01:12 PM   #107
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

I will add, reading the rest of the thread (seems not a lot has changed since I have been gone), that my reaction to the video of the TV show even knowing how common such characters are on Japanese TV was one of revulsion.


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Old 07-16-2008, 01:31 PM   #108
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Shaun
No thanks
Hi Dan,

Of course, I did know what your answer would be. Oh, and when I said, "ask him yourself" I left it open as to in what form you might choose to ask.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I would be more happy to have him try and throw me either that way in particular or in any other way he thought possible. Hell I won't even fight back, I'll just use my meager understanding to try and absorbed and redirect, you know-try and keep up. I'll just be standing there and moving a little bit and seeing what power level and understanding of aiki he has-one on one. I don't want to hurt the guy or cause harm.
Well Dan, I would certainly do anything within my power to try and open the opportunity to you. Unfortunately, for you mostly, I am not sure this will ever happen.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
As you can tell, I am just not buying it-even for one minute. I went down this road with some big shots before, from diverse arts.
I hear ya man! I both understand and agree. However, one must be careful not to ignore windows of opportunity, no matter where they arise, nor how small we must make ourselves in order to take advantage of the opening.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
[b]Does he come to the States?
Will write you a PM on this one... shortly.

.

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Old 07-16-2008, 01:35 PM   #109
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

I met him in Iowa.

Best,
Ron (thanks Shaun)

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Old 07-16-2008, 01:37 PM   #110
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

So I was thinking . . .

I find George's statement to be true that sword work enhances connectivity. (I would state that it provides a unique training environment in which to learn how to connect and/or disconnect at will.) In fact just about all of our taijutsu is prefaced by sword work or some form of pole arm work. The benefit that weapons work offers non-weapons work is due, I believe, to the decreased tolerances physically, technically and mentally for error allowed within good weapons work.

However, of these three, the mental benefit is probably largely a beneficial byproduct of delusion. In other words, for example, in sword work, one's physical and technical performance and accuracy may increase due the changed physical demands brought by the presence of a well handled sword. Interestingly, one also often derives benefits of enhanced mental performance do to type of training. However, in the case of mental enhancement, it is brought about by the PERCEPTION and EVALUATION of the changed physical reality brought by the presence of a sword. In other words, the mental reality changes and is enhanced due to a change in mentality (perception and evaluation) not necessarily due to physical change itself. Consequently, while one may require physical change in order to adapt physically, one does not necessarily require physical change in order to adapt mentally. (Although in the above example, one can see where it can help force the issue.) Of course the punch line is the mind/body differentiation is really a product of perception/evaluation as well.

I'm reminded of the story about Takeda Sokaku getting tooled by a faster Karate guy when he (Takeda) used jujutsu to fight him. He then solved his problem by rationalizing that the Karate guy was faster than his jujutsu, but his (Takeda's) Kenjutsu was faster than the Karate guy . . . so he came back and did Jujutsu like AS a Kenshi and tooled the Karate guy.

Don't know if this belongs here. The repost of George's comment prompted the posted string of thought . . . while I sat on "the throne."

Jun: Please feel free to do what you will with this. I flushed afterward!

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Old 07-16-2008, 03:49 PM   #111
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
Hi Dan,
Will write you a PM on this one... shortly.
.
Hi Shaun
I sent a PM as well.
To be more clear I would just prefer to feel than to talk. The talk always sound so good. The actual level of skill delivered? So far, not so much. These things can and should be fun and nonconfrontational. As has been noted here I've done many of these things and made friends.
Might I suggest they try both the no-touch throws and actual touching throws on me while we are at it? I have many years of Ukemi, and er...non-ukemi.
It should be a good time.
No TV. Beers on me. and dinner If I get tossed.
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Old 07-16-2008, 04:13 PM   #112
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
So I was thinking . . .

I find George's statement to be true that sword work enhances connectivity. (I would state that it provides a unique training environment in which to learn how to connect and/or disconnect at will.) In fact just about all of our taijutsu is prefaced by sword work or some form of pole arm work. The benefit that weapons work offers non-weapons work is due, I believe, to the decreased tolerances physically, technically and mentally for error allowed within good weapons work.

However, of these three, the mental benefit is probably largely a beneficial byproduct of delusion. In other words, for example, in sword work, one's physical and technical performance and accuracy may increase due the changed physical demands brought by the presence of a well handled sword. Interestingly, one also often derives benefits of enhanced mental performance do to type of training. However, in the case of mental enhancement, it is brought about by the PERCEPTION and EVALUATION of the changed physical reality brought by the presence of a sword. In other words, the mental reality changes and is enhanced due to a change in mentality (perception and evaluation) not necessarily due to physical change itself. Consequently, while one may require physical change in order to adapt physically, one does not necessarily require physical change in order to adapt mentally. (Although in the above example, one can see where it can help force the issue.) Of course the punch line is the mind/body differentiation is really a product of perception/evaluation as well.

I'm reminded of the story about Takeda Sokaku getting tooled by a faster Karate guy when he (Takeda) used jujutsu to fight him. He then solved his problem by rationalizing that the Karate guy was faster than his jujutsu, but his (Takeda's) Kenjutsu was faster than the Karate guy . . . so he came back and did Jujutsu like AS a Kenshi and tooled the Karate guy.

Don't know if this belongs here. The repost of George's comment prompted the posted string of thought . . . while I sat on "the throne."

Jun: Please feel free to do what you will with this. I flushed afterward!
Which is why in our case Shoji Nishio took O'Sensei telling him "Aikido is the Sword" seriously enough to develop his own expression of Aikido around it. Everything we do is based on the Sword or Jo and I see a huge difference between those branches that follow this training philosophy and those that don't.

No worries Alan and Jun One of the few places I won't take my laptop is the bathroom or the bedroom. LOL

William Hazen
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Old 07-16-2008, 04:53 PM   #113
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

That Takeda video. I have done Aikido for 28 years and have always known the art's weaknesses due to having studied Judo, Jujutsu, WingChun and other arts, but have kept it up because I also know the art's strengths. Not only that video, but other stuff, ... the Aikido that I do now is probably old Aikido or something. Well, as of last year, I still do the same stuff but call it Jujustu. If I talk to someone who understands, I call it Aiki-jujutsu. Problem is, the only lineage is me and the only organisation is me. Looks like I'll be relegated to my backyard for a good few more years to come.

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Old 07-16-2008, 04:57 PM   #114
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
That Takeda video. I have done Aikido for 28 years and have always known the art's weaknesses due to having studied Judo, Jujutsu, WingChun and other arts, but have kept it up because I also know the art's strengths. Not only that video, but other stuff, ... the Aikido that I do now is probably old Aikido or something. Well, as of last year, I still do the same stuff but call it Jujustu. If I talk to someone who understands, I call it Aiki-jujutsu. Problem is, the only lineage is me and the only organisation is me. Looks like I'll be relegated to my backyard for a good few more years to come.
Kinda like John Candy introducing himself in "Spaceballs, The Movie".

"Hi, I'm Mog. Half-man,half-dog. I'm my own best friend."

Best Wishes,
Jen

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-16-2008, 05:12 PM   #115
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Kinda like John Candy introducing himself in "Spaceballs, The Movie".

"Hi, I'm Mog. Half-man,half-dog. I'm my own best friend."

Best Wishes,
Jen
Don't know that movie. All I know is that watching that Takeda demo at the ALL JAPAN AIKIDO DEMONSTRATION made me sick to the stomach.The only highlight was the audience beginning to laugh at the 2 min period, but why they clapped at the end I have no idea. The more of that garbage I see, and it is not only there but found in too many other places, the more distant or pushed out I become from Aikido. People are rapidly losing the plot.

Think I'll go listen to some ACDC / ZZ Top.

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 07-16-2008 at 05:17 PM.

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Old 07-16-2008, 05:59 PM   #116
ChrisMoses
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Well, as of last year, I still do the same stuff but call it Jujustu. If I talk to someone who understands, I call it Aiki-jujutsu. Problem is, the only lineage is me and the only organisation is me. Looks like I'll be relegated to my backyard for a good few more years to come.
Welcome to the club yo...

Chris Moses
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Old 07-16-2008, 06:07 PM   #117
eyrie
 
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
I find George's statement to be true that sword work enhances connectivity. (I would state that it provides a unique training environment in which to learn how to connect and/or disconnect at will.) In fact just about all of our taijutsu is prefaced by sword work or some form of pole arm work. The benefit that weapons work offers non-weapons work is due, I believe, to the decreased tolerances physically, technically and mentally for error allowed within good weapons work.
No question about that.... but I'm sure you will agree... disengaging by "tanking" like that in a sword encounter is going to leave you at the mercy of the other person... or killed.

Consider also... a person, intent on doing you harm, under the influence of certain mind-altering substances, and not in the least bit concerned about what you might do or try to do to him..... OR even NOT under the influence... as in the Yanagi Ryuken video.

Ignatius
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:26 PM   #118
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Allen,
Where did you get/hear that story about Takeda Sokaku "getting tooled" by the karate-ka? That's an interesting account -- would like to find out more.

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Kinda like John Candy introducing himself in "Spaceballs, The Movie".

"Hi, I'm Mog. Half-man,half-dog. I'm my own best friend."

Best Wishes,
Jen
"May the Schwartz be with you!"

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 07-16-2008 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:43 PM   #119
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

I am off in the am traveling cross country so I want to keep this relatively short... I totally understand what the folks are saying about "tanking" and the detriment to any martial efficacy. I don't think there is any question about that.

I think this is the point at which we start to have the discussion whether Aikido is meant to be a functional martial or rather a system of personal development which uses a martial paradigm.

I guess I do not think it is any mistake that one sees technique which is less practically oriented coming from older Senseis. Certainly that was true of the Founder. I suspect that they simply aren't interested in fighting any more... been there, done that, so to speak.

In my own Aikido I have chosen to move into a period in which I am not terribly concerned with practical application. I spent most of my younger days focusing on such things and, I too, find that my interests have taken me elsewhere. What is interesting is that this "letting go" of the need to fight, to worry about winning etc also has corresponded with the period of greatest positive change in my art. I am certain that, where I to require my waza for practical defense purposes, it would be stronger and more effective than it ever was.

I do not encourage my students to "amplify" what they feel in their ukemi. But I also do not train them to do anything with their body structure which doesn't make sense martially. Tension is the enemy of speed and power. Too many people think that being martial means using their muscular strength to resist technique. This almost never makes sense practically. But "tanking" as a way of doing ukemi makes equally little sense. I teach my students not to go if the nage's power goes into their structure. With good posture and grounding, muscling technique will not work, especially if one is relaxed.

On the other hand if the nage gets the technique then it isn't good practice to hold on. Resisting past the point of no return indicates that ones mind is caught in the past and is not in the present. One is stuck in the past when one should be doing something entirely new. Virtually always this represents a dangerous "opening". Kaeshiwaza is the martial application of aiki principle. I think, if I understand what he is saying, that Dan recommends this type of practice. I have found that I am much closer to being able to do that having changed the manner in which I practice. But we do not practice this way all the time. I think it would take Aikido in a different direction than was intended if practice was mostly a pseudo battle in which one or the other practitioner won.

Sometimes it's just fine to take the ukemi. It's a different practice and not how I would prepare folks for battle... but the dojo isn't a battle ground, at least not with ones partners. I have decided that it isn't useful for me to look at one way of practice or another as right or wrong... They are different and accomplish different things. Certainly, the different approaches to training allow people of vastly different dispositions to train. Perhaps some re-naming needs to take place as some approaches are so different from others that they might as well be different arts. Or perhaps we just come to terms with the fact that each person's Aikido reflects his own strengths and weaknesses and will change or not as he changes or doesn't.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 07-16-2008, 09:16 PM   #120
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Re: Do air cookies provide a minimum daily requirement of nourishment?

Quote:
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There is anyone out there in Nord America who practice with this guy?



seminars coming out?

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Old 07-16-2008, 09:37 PM   #121
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

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Don't know that movie. All I know is that watching that Takeda demo at the ALL JAPAN AIKIDO DEMONSTRATION made me sick to the stomach.The only highlight was the audience beginning to laugh at the 2 min period, but why they clapped at the end I have no idea. The more of that garbage I see, and it is not only there but found in too many other places, the more distant or pushed out I become from Aikido. People are rapidly losing the plot.

Think I'll go listen to some ACDC / ZZ Top.
Spaceballs is Jewjitsu.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 07-16-2008 at 09:43 PM.

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Old 07-16-2008, 09:45 PM   #122
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Re: Do air cookies provide a minimum daily requirement of nourishment?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post


There is anyone out there in Nord America who practice with this guy?



seminars coming out?
Even by my quite flexible and inclusive standards, this is too far gone for me... Those ukes are trying like crazy to do what they "are supposed to do". This is like a badly synced kung fu film. I have seen some amazing energy work done but this is not it. Sorry...

George S. Ledyard
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Old 07-16-2008, 09:52 PM   #123
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Do air cookies provide a minimum daily requirement of nourishment?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Even by my quite flexible and inclusive standards, this is too far gone for me... Those ukes are trying like crazy to do what they "are supposed to do". This is like a badly synced kung fu film. I have seen some amazing energy work done but this is not it. Sorry...
Hahahahahahahahah!

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-16-2008, 10:15 PM   #124
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Allen,
Where did you get/hear that story about Takeda Sokaku "getting tooled" by the karate-ka? That's an interesting account -- would like to find out more.

"May the Schwartz be with you!"
Cady,

I read it somewhere, I'm sorry but I don't remember where. Maybe somebody here can help out my memory. It wasn't any place obscure. I also heard a version of the story last year where Takeda was knocked out. That version came from Ark Aizawa.

Allen

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Old 07-16-2008, 10:34 PM   #125
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Cady,

I read it somewhere, I'm sorry but I don't remember where. Maybe somebody here can help out my memory. It wasn't any place obscure. I also heard a version of the story last year where Takeda was knocked out. That version came from Ark Aizawa.

Allen
I heard it went something like this.
Takeda held the Okinawan's wrists down, and told him "now, try anything!"
So the Okinawan, in typical Okinawan fashion, ignored the wrists, jumped up and kicked Takeda in the face (Takeda wasn't that tall so it's pretty easy to imagine), knocking him out.

Another story running around was about Takeda's students begging him to show his skill at throwing shuriken.
Takeda eventually obliged, throwing three shuriken in a row at some wooden beam.
Everyone does the whole "wow you're so awesome" speal,
but from the corner some old geezer spouted "Any ass with half their wits could throw something pointy into a piece of wood!"
Takeda gets pissed and challenges the old man,
who promptly threw 3 coins into the beam of wood, forming a neat triangle
Takeda shut up, face went purple, and supposedly shuriken were never to be mentioned in his presence ever again

True or not?
Dunno, makes for a good story though.
Just means that there's always someone more skilled at this stuff.
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