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Old 07-08-2008, 03:40 PM   #1
mathewjgano
 
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Survey on creating and using suki 空き

From aikiwiki:
Quote:
An opening or gap where one is vulnerable to attack or application of a technique, or where one's technique is otherwise flawed. suki may be either physical or psychological. One goal of training is to be sensitive to suki within one's own movement or position, as well as to detect suki in the movement or position of one's partner. Ideally, a master of aikido will have developed his/her skill to such an extent that he/she no longer has any true suki.
Hi all,
I was curious about different folks' perspectives on creating and exploiting suki, or on its nature in general. I'm particularly interested in how different folks might describe their own approach toward creating it.
I think of leading and feinting as being ways to generate suki: but both seem to require aite to over-commit. These can be pretty successful, but I don't trust them very much I suppose. It's a silly example perhaps, but I remember on the soccer field the individuals that relied heavily upon feints typically lost the ball more often, particularly against seasoned defenders. Similarly, someone who knows how to track movement or who isn't afraid of getting hit could be real difficult to psych out...they could just be focusing more on what they're going to do to you.
Anyhow, there's my two bits to try and get this thread off and rolling. Any thoughts?
Much appreciation,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-08-2008, 09:23 PM   #2
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

hi Mike,

I see this thread as going in a variety of places. I am a firm believer in using extended energy to create openings (mental blocks and physical angles and zones) way before you range at mai i. Telekenesis, ifyou will as studied by SRI at Standord (Puthoff, Targ), and the Pear Institute at Princeton (Jahn).

At mai i, I use postural manipulations and a very developed understanding of range. Sympathetic movement is also very powerful at this range. It creates a form of mild hypnosis.

Once we are in grips, I mainly use mechanical advantage to force instability/ kuzushi and thus openings.

In essence, in all cases, one person's center must blow the other's center away.
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Old 07-08-2008, 11:06 PM   #3
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
hi Mike,

I see this thread as going in a variety of places. I am a firm believer in using extended energy to create openings (mental blocks and physical angles and zones) way before you range at mai i. Telekenesis, ifyou will as studied by SRI at Standord (Puthoff, Targ), and the Pear Institute at Princeton (Jahn).

At mai i, I use postural manipulations and a very developed understanding of range. Sympathetic movement is also very powerful at this range. It creates a form of mild hypnosis.

Once we are in grips, I mainly use mechanical advantage to force instability/ kuzushi and thus openings.

In essence, in all cases, one person's center must blow the other's center away.
Thanks Chris, please feel free to take the thread to any variety of places you can think of. I'm just trying to do my best imitation of a sponge while tossing out whatever anecdotes come to my mind. I know it's a pretty wide open topic, but I'm open to whatever folks care to offer...if anything.
I'll have to check out those studies. I like what you said about sympathetic movement. It's the kind of thing that seems to help me sense suki and rhythm...and I've found that having a sense of it is pretty useful in a variety of situations.

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Old 07-09-2008, 02:23 AM   #4
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

Creating openings and exploiting them is what Aikido is about. Then what happens is, the guy who does it does not know how he did what he did so labels it ki. Then, no one has a clue.

Creating an opening in Aikido, for me, is not simply getting them to raise their arms so you can hit them, say in the ribs. It is taking their balance - mentally, physically, both, so you can make technique - irimi-nage, ikkyo, etc. (which could include hitting them in the ribs, if you want to do that). If you haven't taken their balance in some way, you are not in control, and that raised arm might be a lure, a trap, and even if you did, say, hit them in the ribs - they would be tensed up and ready for it so - no effect. Worse, they might now have you in their control.

But you don't create/spot an opening and then decide to do a spurious technique, say, irimi-nage. Rather, the opening you see is an irimi-nage shape, or other, presenting itself to you - an opportunity that is taken instantly. Then, you have them.

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 07-09-2008 at 02:31 AM.

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Old 07-09-2008, 03:18 AM   #5
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

Oh - I almost forgot. If there is a big opening and you can hit them in the ribs, then do so, but not too hard as they may do likewise in return. One, you win; two, they win because they learn.

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Old 07-09-2008, 10:23 AM   #6
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Thanks Chris, please feel free to take the thread to any variety of places you can think of. I'm just trying to do my best imitation of a sponge while tossing out whatever anecdotes come to my mind. I know it's a pretty wide open topic, but I'm open to whatever folks care to offer...if anything.
I'll have to check out those studies. I like what you said about sympathetic movement. It's the kind of thing that seems to help me sense suki and rhythm...and I've found that having a sense of it is pretty useful in a variety of situations.
Telekinesis and PSI

H.E. Puthoff used psychic Ingo Swann in his first trials for determining if mental intent can affect a machine. He used a magnotometer that was shielded from any and all outside interference. ingo affected the machine with ease. He ultimately found that Ingo did not even have to be in close proximity to the machine. There was a non-local effect.

This experiment had a major influence on the CIA and military's "remote viewing" operations that were developed to counter similar Soviet projects.

R. G. Jahn, (PEAR Intitute, Princeton), took this work farther with his random event machines. He proved that time was not an issue either. The machine could be affected in both past and future aspects as long as certain simple protocols were used.

Living creatures are even more sensitive to not only like kinds but other living entities. Puthoff also used a lie deterctor machine to measure the galvanic response to see if plants have emotion in the form of electronic signalling. When he burned a leaf, there was a galvanic reaction. But more interestingly, there was also a galvanic reaction in nearby plants as well. Empathy perhaps experienced from a distance.

So, how about inciting fear and trepidation in an opponent before you even go on the battlefield? How about from 100 yeards?

Many years ago, a Marine Intel officer who was also a Hwarang-do/Hapkido artist from Montana, hung out at our San Diego dojo.

He was very good at using his intentionality to shut down a competitor a split second before they sparred. We went through various drills isolating parts of the skill and building the overall skill set.

We could affect each other through the dressing room wall (positively or negatively). we got pretty good at distance. We never tried to use it through time.

Today, I use it as a security professional a bunch. I "communicate" with a potential bad guy from 100 yards, telling him that we are on to him and to go elsewhere. I also subtley shut folks down at the Maai range right before I use go-no-sin type entries.

When using sin-no-sin strategy or when in the grapple (standing or ground), I often relax and use PSI simultaneously to "slice" through resistance.

Interestingly, I am part of a private "prayer/meditation" group that gets together on the internet nowdays. We often "visit each other" in the "zero-point-field" as the Quantum mechanics guys might say.

But I try to keep that stuff purely full of love and positive energies. No brujo stuff.

Intentionality can be measured. See William Tiller's website. He was professor emeritus of Mechanical Sciences at Stanford. Morphic resonance (Biologist Rupert Sheldrake) is pretty real. Thought is simply a wave length. You can tune out the white noise and focus on a wavelength of choice. Once resonating, you can meet in the zero-point-field.
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Old 07-09-2008, 12:54 PM   #7
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
But you don't create/spot an opening and then decide to do a spurious technique, say, irimi-nage. Rather, the opening you see is an irimi-nage shape, or other, presenting itself to you - an opportunity that is taken instantly. Then, you have them.
Hi Rupert,
Thanks for posting! This makes me think of the idea of sympathetic behavior I believe Chris was talking about. Assuming I'm understanding his take on it, I think an appropriate Japanese term/concept would be musubi. In my own limited experience I've developed a sense of connecting my movements to the people around me (large-team glassblowers can appreciate this). The feeling I get from what seems like successful aiki is of falling into the movement, which is why it always feels like I'm finding suki more than making it.
I keep thinking lately about a session training with a young lad who kept skipping the katatetori suppression in order to count coup with a strike (I had asked him to try and hit me with his free hand in order to get him to activate both sides of his body and he was just having fun with it). He would make contact, but instead of suppressing my center, he went for the strike. I "helped" him out by entering through his grabbing hand and then doing the technique anyway. Certainly I created a particular shape to the technique, but would that be a case of creating the opening?

Last edited by mathewjgano : 07-09-2008 at 12:56 PM.

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Old 07-09-2008, 01:21 PM   #8
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Intentionality can be measured. See William Tiller's website. He was professor emeritus of Mechanical Sciences at Stanford. Morphic resonance (Biologist Rupert Sheldrake) is pretty real. Thought is simply a wave length. You can tune out the white noise and focus on a wavelength of choice. Once resonating, you can meet in the zero-point-field.
Considering what little I've learned of quantum level physics, the phasing of thought patterns doesn't seem quite so outlandish. However, that thought is also an electro-chemical function causes some doubt to my mind. Would you be interested in starting a new thread or PM-ing me with some anecdotes from your meditations?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-09-2008, 07:26 PM   #9
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

I used to think a lot about my partner's "weak points," in order to exploit them. However, since then my mind has shifted away from that study. Now I'm thinking about meeting uke at his/her greatest point of strength. It seems to me that use of "aiki" would ultimately lead away from seeking out what uke lacks, and instead should lead to joining with the primary content of uke's action.

Hitting people in the ribs during kokyunage or shihonage seems kind of pointless. Can aikido's aim really be to hit a person who has been rendered defenseless? However, using atemi to get uke to "flinch" or force a defense is clearly a viable, on the mat, martial tactic.

Right now I think the opening is right where uke intended to be closed.

Then again, perhaps these statements I've made reveal my own suki.
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Old 07-09-2008, 08:52 PM   #10
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Hi Rupert,
Thanks for posting! This makes me think of the idea of sympathetic behavior I believe Chris was talking about. Assuming I'm understanding his take on it, I think an appropriate Japanese term/concept would be musubi. In my own limited experience I've developed a sense of connecting my movements to the people around me (large-team glassblowers can appreciate this). The feeling I get from what seems like successful aiki is of falling into the movement, which is why it always feels like I'm finding suki more than making it.
Sympathetic Movement.

If you have ever been spear fishing you quickly learn how sensitive a school of fish are to any movement in the water that disturbs their own sense of the tide and its vibrational pulses. You learn not to introduce any movement that would scare the fish away.

One thing you also notice is not to fight the tide by trying to stay fixed with both feet on the sandy bottom. You let your weight shift with the tide and thus become camouflaged by its movement.

When we use gravity and erect postures on land at Maai range, the same is true. You will most always

(1) introduce new and intrusive forces into the blending motion and ((2) be too slow in reaction to the attack

if you begin with both feet equally weighted

Let me explain and discuss how this applies to sympathetic motion.

Intent
When an attacker forms intent, he then sets the intent in motion with a shift of his hips and shoulder. If you have not already anticipated and begun to blend at this stage, your movement is behind his rhythm and is not really going with his tide.

But, if you are 90% weighted on one foot, when he moves his hips, you simply bend your knee (same as leading your hip) and place your unweighted leg into position for your next weight shift.

If you begin with 50/50 weighting or 60/40 weighting in your feet, you essentially have to shift to the rear foot in order to move the front one. Thus, you are behind the tide.

Angle
Now, as the attacker adopts a specific line of attack, he is essentially committed to it. You will need to find a complimentary angle of movement.

So you have placed your foot on that complimentary angle and are shifting your weight to the front foot as uke is attacking you. You are right on time.

As the attacker shifts his weight, you are now shifting your's at the same pace. IMO, the only way to keep an exact pace is to use what I call "front wheel drive". In CMA, we call it Tai Chi stepping. Once your lead foot is placed on the floor, your pull with your front knee rather than push with your back foot. Front wheel drive can determine how fast you weight shift and keeps your center of gravity low to the ground.

Pushing with the back foot causes the center to rise (if just slightly) and thus gravity determines the speed of the weight shift as your foot falls to the ground. You just cannot blend if your weight shift is not under "speed control".

Turning 180 degrees

The best method of doing this is not to raise your center as you pivot on your toes around a point like a dancer. Instead, keep 100% of your weight on one foot and place the other in a pigeon toed position. You should be sitting one your weighted leg. Now shift your weight by sitting on your other leg. By being pigeon toed, your have shifted 180 degrees around a specific point in space. You have also controlled the speed like in "front wheel drive" stepping mentioned earlier. This motion is very popular in Baqua because it rounds corners very subtly. If you have attached to the opponent, it also allows you to drop weight on the point of contact and direct the "heaviness" on a specific line thus taking advantage of the opening you gained by pivoting.
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Old 07-09-2008, 11:04 PM   #11
John Matsushima
 
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

Quote:
Lyle Bogin wrote: View Post
I used to think a lot about my partner's "weak points," in order to exploit them. However, since then my mind has shifted away from that study. Now I'm thinking about meeting uke at his/her greatest point of strength. It seems to me that use of "aiki" would ultimately lead away from seeking out what uke lacks, and instead should lead to joining with the primary content of uke's action.
I also agree that it is better to meet uke at their greatest point of strength. In my practice, I have had to change my mindset to see uke differently from looking at where his weakness were so that I could disable him, to instead looking at where his strength lies. Since I consider the attack to be the opening, to create an opening would thus mean to create, or as I like to think of, draw out an attack by being open and defensless. One either adds to the attack, redirects, leads, dissipates, jams, etc., to facilitate the technique.

-John Matsushima

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http://onecorneroftheplanetinjapan.blogspot.jp/
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Old 07-09-2008, 11:29 PM   #12
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

Quote:
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Considering what little I've learned of quantum level physics, the phasing of thought patterns doesn't seem quite so outlandish. However, that thought is also an electro-chemical function causes some doubt to my mind. Would you be interested in starting a new thread or PM-ing me with some anecdotes from your meditations?
perhaps a nonlocal electro-chemical function: meaning the process of cognition and memory are in all parts of the brain and perhaps in the zero point field as well via vibratory "hologramic" record that is not bound by time.

If so, this is the morphic resonance source, a bunch of undetermined electrons that act as a conduit for intrapersonal communication. And everything is recorded in it.

We can reach out from a distance, at close range or from behind the dojo's dressing room wall. The influence is subtle. Try testing it with the traditional "muscle integrity test".

Extend your arm to the side and look the other way. Let a 3rd party lightly push down to sense if normal strength and integrity is present in the deltoid. Have nage think and transmit "muscle shut down" intentionality. Them have nage transmit strength and integrity vibes.. Let the 3rd party determine the changes in deltoid strength/integrity.
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Old 07-10-2008, 01:18 PM   #13
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

I was thinking today, and after the usual blinding pain subsided a question came to me...
How would the "internal" folks describe the relationship between suki and aiki?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-10-2008, 01:27 PM   #14
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

I would define the relationship as collapsing space then aligning with new creation.A little kotodama meets Einstein; however you do it.

have fun

I'm thinking Ron should be along any second......

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 07-10-2008 at 01:31 PM.

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Old 07-10-2008, 01:36 PM   #15
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

Nah. I really don't have anything to say on this topic. Still too much in the learning stage.

B,
R (thanks for thinking of me, though)

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Old 07-10-2008, 01:39 PM   #16
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

wink,wink......

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Old 07-10-2008, 01:45 PM   #17
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I was thinking today, and after the usual blinding pain subsided a question came to me...
How would the "internal" folks describe the relationship between suki and aiki?
Uh, I forget is that the raw fish or the potent alcohol? Combining the former with aiki is messy. With the latter, well, it can be messy too. LOL!

Or is suki a hybrid creation of a drunk fish? And it has a relationship with love and harmony? Whoa, that's some major drugs, I think.

(Couldn't resist)

Last edited by MM : 07-10-2008 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 07-10-2008, 01:55 PM   #18
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I was thinking today, and after the usual blinding pain subsided a question came to me...
How would the "internal" folks describe the relationship between suki and aiki?
I'm with Ron on this one. But, just because I'm an idiot and don't mind being wrong.

When I work on getting a good internal structure, it's a tough process both mentally and physically. So, when I work with a peer and we are both trying to use internal structure, the one whose mental intent slips is usually the one who creates a suki in his body. (Note: Taking advantage of that is a whole different thing.) Usually the mind gives before the body. But where the mind goes, so goes the body.

Mark
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Old 07-10-2008, 01:59 PM   #19
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

I don't mind being incorrect either.( Don't be tempted here,ha-ha).

Good thoughts above and in the mean time I happened on this, inspired again by the doka of the day:

"Aiki is the power of harmony between all things
Polish it ceaselessly
You people of the Way
The great and honored God
Taught us the way to govern the world
By creating the 75 sounds (of the Kotodama).
In these teachings listen most
To the rhythm of the strike and thrust
To train in the basics (omote)
Is to practice the very secrets of the art.
Through the 75 movements of compassion
The events of this world
Evermore do flourish
Oh great and honored Deity!
With "Eiiii" cut him down!
That enemy that lurks within
Instruct him with "Yah"
Guide him with "Toh".
Blend the ki within the self (ki-musubi)
Stand erect in the very centre
Polish the spirit/mind (kokoro)"

Now my mind is in town so my body is alittle late.
Best,
Jen

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Old 07-10-2008, 02:42 PM   #20
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

<rant>
umm,

THERE IS NO UKE!
</rant>

...thank you

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-10-2008, 02:59 PM   #21
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
<rant>
umm,

THERE IS NO UKE!
</rant>

...thank you

.
Thank you.
That was the quickest rant I've ever seen.
...and of course you're most welcome.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-10-2008, 03:07 PM   #22
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Uh, I forget is that the raw fish or the potent alcohol? Combining the former with aiki is messy. With the latter, well, it can be messy too. LOL!

Or is suki a hybrid creation of a drunk fish? And it has a relationship with love and harmony? Whoa, that's some major drugs, I think.

(Couldn't resist)
"awwww J'YEAH! Suki suki y'all!"

Messy is mixing the raw fish with too much of the potent alcohol!

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-10-2008, 09:51 PM   #23
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki 空き

Quote:
Oh great and honored Deity!
With "Eiiii" cut him down!
That enemy that lurks within
Instruct him with "Yah"
Guide him with "Toh".
Blend the ki within the self (ki-musubi)
Stand erect in the very centre
Polish the spirit/mind (kokoro)"
Yes!!!!

Quantum Kotodama.
The mind (my mind) certainly leads the body, mine and uke's. At least when I am doing the work of aiki correctly. I either exploit existing suki or create suke on contact.
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Old 07-10-2008, 09:59 PM   #24
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki ??

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
<rant>
umm,

THERE IS NO UKE!
</rant>

...thank you

.
"Red Pill". You're welcome.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:46 AM   #25
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Re: Survey on creating and using suki ??

Quote:
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"Red Pill".
Sometimes the "Blue Pill" is so much easier.
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