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Old 07-08-2008, 03:37 PM   #26
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Internal Power - maintaining the 6 (some say 8) harmonies of intentions (which is easiest to do with good structure).
Not a quibble but a clarification of your terms of art. I know what I mean when I use "harmony" in a physical sense (and it has more than one physical meaning, though for related things).

What does it mean when you use it ?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-08-2008, 03:59 PM   #27
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
If somone wants to make a compelling argument on why leverage is just as important as structure then I'm still waiting for it. It's just so basic. You need good structure to apply leverage...
, Well, it definitely ain't leverage, if it makes you feel better . The effective effort arm of the elbow joint for example in a curl is about 1" and the resistance arm is about 10" making 100 pounds of effort necessary to lift, by levering the joint, 10 pounds placed in the hand.

I just don't see a tactical percentage there. Obviously, most people can curl ten pounds, and have at least hundred pounds of elbow actuation available. The question then turn to mechnisms by which tha tsame joint system may be actuated to deliver its full 100 pound payload ...? Not as a lever ... Heavy weightlifters don't lever -- they snatch ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-08-2008, 04:01 PM   #28
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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I PM'd Rob on this but did not get a response.
It's because your mailbox is overstuffed and bouncing.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 07-08-2008, 05:58 PM   #29
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
, Well, it definitely ain't leverage, if it makes you feel better . The effective effort arm of the elbow joint for example in a curl is about 1" and the resistance arm is about 10" making 100 pounds of effort necessary to lift, by levering the joint, 10 pounds placed in the hand.

I just don't see a tactical percentage there. Obviously, most people can curl ten pounds, and have at least hundred pounds of elbow actuation available. The question then turn to mechnisms by which tha tsame joint system may be actuated to deliver its full 100 pound payload ...? Not as a lever ... Heavy weightlifters don't lever -- they snatch ...
hi Eric,

My pm to rob john was two months ago.
say I am a 4 year old when it comes to engineering. But my idea of the lever is like a crane more exactke. My erect posture has a counter weight that I lost perhaps 40,000 years ago. But my fat arse makes up for the lost tail anyways.

T-Rex would be my idea of a good crane. Big legs, small arms that do their work close to the center of gravity and a great counterweight.

So, I gave up one of my big secrets. Begin with simple machines (inclined plane, lever, fulcrum, etc) and transform them into complex ones (block and tackle; two stroke engine). Thesis: efficient mechanics can overcome someone who has better structure but lacks mechanical advantage.
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Old 07-08-2008, 07:23 PM   #30
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Re: Daito Ryu's Aiki, Structure, and Leverage

Perhaps Rob L was quoting Archimedes, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but there is more than 1 class of levers....

Ignatius
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Old 07-08-2008, 08:44 PM   #31
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Re: Daito Ryu's Aiki, Structure, and Leverage

I don't have a lot of time here.
1 - I do not mean to imprecisely cite anyone - but well it's the best I can do with the situation I have and well feel free to correct anything you feel is misrepresented.

2 - okay, try using a lever that has no structure -> well. actually too many people in aikido are already trying this. good luck with that The point here is that structure still freaken comes first.

I'll respond more as time allows.

Rob
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Old 07-08-2008, 10:42 PM   #32
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Daito Ryu's Aiki, Structure, and Leverage

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I don't have a lot of time here.
1 - I do not mean to imprecisely cite anyone - but well it's the best I can do with the situation I have and well feel free to correct anything you feel is misrepresented.

2 - okay, try using a lever that has no structure -> well. actually too many people in aikido are already trying this. good luck with that The point here is that structure still freaken comes first.

I'll respond more as time allows.

Rob
I am not sure if you saw my explanation of how wind and water (both structureless) defeated structure by creating a "coupling" on the masts/sails and the keel/ballast of the Spanish Armada, but the implications are still directly related to KG. In essence, we create a coupling by allowing friction and weight to keep uke's foot from moving while we use slight torsion of the arm to connect to the center of gravity and create instability with direction force. In the case of the Armada, wind and water created the coupling.

I would like to challenge you once more. You say that structure trumps leverage. Can anything trump structure? I have heard from my first day in the martial arts that the main tool in my quiver is my mind.... not my structure.

You have heard of the old joke about the two boxers. One kept beating the other even though he was weaker and slower. When the loser asked him why he kept winning, the victor simply said, "You box because you want to, I box because I have to."

Well, my buddy HAL von Luebbert had no choice in the matter. He was inducted into the original group of Special Forces (at age 16) back in the mid 1950's and then sheep dipped into the CIA as a field operative.

After surviving ops in Eastern Europe and Cuba, he left on bad terms. They pursued him lethally but he survived every attack. He has fought because he had to. His experience (1,000 orgnized bouts), along with his cunning and dedicated study of strategy, tactics and techniques, makes him very dangerous.

So, if a guy has structure but has the mental framework of fighting because he wants to rather than fighting because he had to, I would not put my money on him if his opponent was skilled at fighting for his life because he had to.
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Old 07-09-2008, 04:25 AM   #33
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Re: Daito Ryu's Aiki, Structure, and Leverage

Chris,

Well sure, mental intention trumps structure. Dan can hold his lines in all sorts of _seemingly_ structurally weak positions. But those mental intentions just end up resulting in an internal physical structure that is more difficult to see.

And I'm certain that if you want to use the leverage of a crane to move Dan you can -- but the crane has a huge structural base.

If you want to discuss the "size of the fight in the dog" compared to the "size of dog in the fight" type thing - fine but for my analysis. you have someone like Hal who won fights who most likely has better structure and leverage than the people he beat up.

If you want to use your own body to leverage me (viciously or not), I'll bet you have a remarkably harder time with that then your typical experience. Try it with Dan or I suspect Mike and you'll start to get the impression that if I had to focus my training effort on something "structure" or "leverage" you'll come up with "structure" an your answer.

Rob
(I'll get back to the others as time permits.)
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Old 07-09-2008, 04:34 AM   #34
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Those are pretty cheap dues.

But I get where you're coming from and I genuinely wonder what your next opinion will be.

Thanks
Sorry - been meaning to get back to this too.
I'm confused. How many decades of life energy do you have to dedicate to your art before the dues are no longer cheap?

My opinion will change when someone (and I'm not afraid to travel and meet people - even the "scary" people LOL) shows me anything beyond what I know and/or can do. I'm open to the idea of people telling me a friend can do something beyond. I'll just want to meet their friend.

So far most of the "other" things I was considering eventually learning in more detail like "soft tissue targeting" and "ground fighting" are now only interesting if they are powered by internal skills.

Having read your posts for some time, it is pretty clear to me that you also love aikido so I'm pretty confident that we'll eventually meet and I think you'll be quickly be very interested in my direction. Because frankly, I've tried so many of the others and nothing is generating the results that direct internal skills development does.

Rob
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Old 07-09-2008, 05:18 AM   #35
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Daito Ryu's Aiki, Structure, and Leverage

rob,

I have no doubt that Dan, Mike and Rob John are highly prficient martial artists. And I am sure structure is key to their success.

I simply suggest that there is a whole spectrum of training that should be studied to maintain balance. I am sure Dan would agree.

Mental toughness
evasion, distance, angles and zone
striking points
speed strength
general strength and aerobic/anarobic conditioning
technical efficiency
strategy and tactics
timing
structural integrity
internal power
mental extension
mechanical advantage

As I grow older, my fight style has changed out of necessity.i play to my strengths and fight accordingly. To handle 30 year olds requires shrewdness.

I will give you an example. I think I can use pain compliance to destroy structure. But I had to go out of the box to find a successful method. Broken bones, nerve point striking, etc, may or may not destroy structure.
instead, i grab uke's upper lip. Now, it is pretty much impossible to "rip someone's lips off. Ears can rip off but i have never heard a lip ripping off. Now my grip ( thumb and forefinger) can slip off so I better train grip strength. Now train your throws from the lip grip.

It is a bit like leading a cow by a nose ring. You can push on a cow's stru ture all day long but you do not need much effort when pulling on the ring. With the lip grip, you can either crumble a guy or throw him. Strength and nerve point trumped structure.
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Old 07-09-2008, 05:33 AM   #36
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Re: Daito Ryu's Aiki, Structure, and Leverage

Chhi'mèd,

Listen bud. I don't have any interest in having a silly one up manship battle of words with you. I tried to qualify my statement with "completely" overpower - which you seem to have misquoted. It is abundantly clear you got my meaning - many times over. I have neither the time nor the inclination to get into perfecting my wording to your satisfaction. Frankly, I'd rather spend any time not with my kid on training solo exercises. I can say this, if you are wondering why Dan hasn't gotten back to you, I suspect he feels similarly.

The deal in that thead and in this one is that internal power and aiki skills provide enough power differential to make the silly and pretty much absurd "aikido techniques" actaully work in real life. That power differential is like the one between an adult and a small child.

You have 2 choices here. 1 - we can stay friendly, and you can HELP clarify and perfect my words to add value, and I'll continue to share my thoughts and knowledge with you as best as I can. 2 - you can end up on my ignore list which is currently is empty. Nothing personal, I am literally unable to put in the amount of time it would require to do things what seems like your way...

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 07-09-2008 at 05:42 AM.
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Old 07-09-2008, 05:38 AM   #37
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Re: Daito Ryu's Aiki, Structure, and Leverage

Chris,

No argument on the spectrum. I was arguing that there was something that was the most important. And I am genuine about being willing to share with you. Last night it only took 30 seconds or so for me to hit decent level of structure and stability. Dan showed me the 2 on 1 hold you were talking about. I have had people do that to me before when wrestling with some friends - I didn't know the name. Anyway, my point about KG is that pretty much any angle you like isn't going to take my center - whereas - being drawn into someone elses harmony regardless of the angle/leverage has a very good chance.

Erick,

I am still trying to get back to your post. If I ever miss anything from you please don't take it as an insult and please feel free to remind me in PM. It takes longer for me to think about how to respond to you and well I'm distractable these days. I don't actually know right now how to best describe what I mean by internal harmony. I will continue to think about how to descibe what I mean.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 07-09-2008 at 05:45 AM.
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Old 07-09-2008, 06:10 AM   #38
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Daito Ryu's Aiki, Structure, and Leverage

rob,
I would say you are lucky to be in Dan's backyard. While I have only had a couple of written correspondences with him, he seems to display professionalism, courtesy and devotion to hard and patient training.

I hope some day he and I can meet. I do suspect, we have some philosophical differences but that is what martial cosmopolitanism is about. If we were all the same, life would be pretty dull.

Structure as being most important?? Most of the time, yes. But pride cometh before the fall. Most of the great historic battles were won by weaker forces that had better strategy or some luck from a friendly god.

Remember the movie "The Patriot". Mel Gibson in the final battle said Cornwallis would take the militia for granted and would expect them to break and run. The continental army just had to wait and watch British ego self destruct their own superior structure Wow, strategy can trump structure too.
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Old 07-09-2008, 07:03 AM   #39
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Re: Daito Ryu's Aiki, Structure, and Leverage

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strategy can trump structure too.
Of course it CAN, sure. But I would recommend the strategy of putting your focus where it is most likely to help - which is training structure, and then leverage based on that structure.

Rob
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Old 07-09-2008, 07:37 AM   #40
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Daito Ryu's Aiki, Structure, and Leverage

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Of course it CAN, sure. But I would recommend the strategy of putting your focus where it is most likely to help - which is training structure, and then leverage based on that structure.

Rob
We all approach the big elephant from different directions. The one you mention is foundational and great.

Now, if you ended up with a bullet in your back with a partial injury to the spine, (This is Hal's challenge among others. as mentioned in his website so I am not speaking out of turn), structure may not be your best and most useful place to devote the majority of your time. Indeed, every man once engaged in a fight notices quite quickly how little grip strength he really has (That's Hal talking).

How many of us who train have some sort of "inconvenient truth" within our crickety bodies that screams, "I am your greatest teacher. You are going to have to work around me. If you do not listen, you will end up in a wheelchair because of me."

My discussion with Jen's nature spirits have taught me to say, "If it hurts when you go like that, don't go like that." Getting repetitive stress injury from not obeying one's physical infirmities is foolish. One size does not fit all in training.

Perhaps your "joy of throwing" morphs into strategies to drag someone down to a ground fight where your superior grips, relaxations and strength can be maximized.

Or, perhaps like "Tuturuhan" you allow "yang" structure to have its way and be like water (form to formlessness) and keep a blade hidden for the coup de grace.

No one is a superman. Irony has it that once we really get good at using internal arts, we are also probably beyond the age of competition. If this were not the case, there would be people openly declaring they are internal-style fighters and they would be cashing in on the MMA money and such.

Oh well, my 2 cents for this morning.
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Old 07-09-2008, 08:03 AM   #41
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Daito Ryu's Aiki, Structure, and Leverage

I highly recommend reading "neko no myojutsu"...translated by Karl Friday and others. It's in the Skoss' last book in their series, Keiko Shokon.

In my opinion, in essence, it highlights the issues with focusing on any one method to the exclusion of all others. And I think it is just good reading on top of that.

BUT...I also think it is a mistaken impression that anyone speaking positively of Internal Arts or whatever is suggesting that that should be the sole focus of training. There are some that are delaying other training until they get their foot in the door on those skills. Not my choice, but perfectly understandable if someone wants to really focus **for a time** on just that aspect.

If someone has been training for as long as Rob has, I tend to assume they have run through quite a long list of different things to focus on at different times in their training. If they then choose to focus on what some would call a *basic* area of strength training in Asian Martial arts...that makes perfect sense to me. If there are basic skills that enliven the arts that I missed (at least in terms of being able to really and concretely perform with them)...then you better bet I'm working on that.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 07-09-2008 at 08:06 AM.

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Old 07-09-2008, 08:41 AM   #42
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Daito Ryu's Aiki, Structure, and Leverage

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I highly recommend reading "neko no myojutsu"...translated by Karl Friday and others. It's in the Skoss' last book in their series, Keiko Shokon.

In my opinion, in essence, it highlights the issues with focusing on any one method to the exclusion of all others. And I think it is just good reading on top of that.

BUT...I also think it is a mistaken impression that anyone speaking positively of Internal Arts or whatever is suggesting that that should be the sole focus of training. There are some that are delaying other training until they get their foot in the door on those skills. Not my choice, but perfectly understandable if someone wants to really focus **for a time** on just that aspect.

If someone has been training for as long as Rob has, I tend to assume they have run through quite a long list of different things to focus on at different times in their training. If they then choose to focus on what some would call a *basic* area of strength training in Asian Martial arts...that makes perfect sense to me. If there are basic skills that enliven the arts that I missed (at least in terms of being able to really and concretely perform with them)...then you better bet I'm working on that.

Best,
Ron
Boy, well said Ron. I also look forward to reading that book.

Almost 40 years ago, I asked this question of myself....

Would I spend 10 years looking for the right martial master to train me ?
or
Would I train for ten years while putting the intention of finding the perfect martial master out into the universe.

I suspect it has been a little of both and that perfect martial master was a compendium of several folks, all well heeled in their specific take on things.
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Old 07-09-2008, 12:19 PM   #43
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Re: Daito Ryu's Aiki, Structure, and Leverage

Structure is good, but there are other ways of using the body. Its just one of a number of tools.
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Old 07-09-2008, 07:30 PM   #44
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Re: Daito Ryu's Aiki, Structure, and Leverage

Thanks Ron.

Just curious, have you actually seen Karl Friday doing kashima?

Chris, I'm not saying if you can't find the best people to help you give up or anything. Just saying after having personally tried a LOT of methods - more than many - and having made some progress that eclictic approach - given all of that experience - I would like to strongly suggest that there is something very important about structure and encougare people not to delude themselves looking for better leverage.

I'm honestly not clear if you were serious about offering my center stage at your event to show you, but I am serious about being willing to share what I'm talking about personally with you when I have developed myself enough to make the point clearly. If not, no hard feelings.

Rob
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:06 PM   #45
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Re: Daito Ryu's Aiki, Structure, and Leverage

IMO, structure is everything.

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Old 07-09-2008, 09:49 PM   #46
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Daito Ryu's Aiki, Structure, and Leverage

rob,

I am sincere. And I can probably get a timeslot at the upcoming seminar. Andit doesn't have to be you giving the demo if you are not comfortable with it yet. Just understand, most of thexattendees will be wrestlers and jujitsu/judo guys.

We just need to clear it with Moe and Hal. I really donor see an issue there. I'll inquire tomorrow.
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Old 07-09-2008, 10:47 PM   #47
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Re: Daito Ryu's Aiki, Structure, and Leverage

Okay - but just to be clear you didn't miss the part about "when I have developed myself enough to make the point clearly." did you?

Are you having your event next year? I'll be a lot closer to ready to have something worth sharing...

Rob
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Old 07-10-2008, 04:25 AM   #48
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Daito Ryu's Aiki, Structure, and Leverage

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Okay - but just to be clear you didn't miss the part about "when I have developed myself enough to make the point clearly." did you?

Are you having your event next year? I'll be a lot closer to ready to have something worth sharing...

Rob
Moe will be sponsoring many events now his "new/improved" dojo is completed. This has been his vision all along. His Retirement from high school coaching has given him the time to go full boar into hosting seminars.

Come on out and get to know us...

I am sure he would love to have Dan come out as well.

As far as HAL, well you never know what a year may bring with him. He was talking about getting a sailboat and heading out to sea 12 months ago. This could be his last public seminar for all I know. People who are born hunters just do not like grazing on the same pasture day in and day out.
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