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Old 09-30-2008, 12:51 PM   #101
Mark Gibbons
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Yes
Can they stop their teachers in their tracks.
Are encouraged to do so.
Are being specifically and in great detail taught how to stop the teacher in their tracks.
And they -the students- have skills that are increasingly challenging the teachers to stay ahead in their own pursuits or have the student shoot past.
And without knowing rank, you can sort them by skills
.
Thanks for the list Dan.

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Even hands on I think you have to be very good yourself in order to tell the subtle differences between very good, great mastery and something you wanted to believe in.
Regards,
Mark
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I don't think that's true at all. On one level you are going to get handled regardless of your efforts-you'll know straight away you are far outmatched.
On another level you should be also dealing with power far beyond your abilities. And that power should be unusual and obvious.
And so far I haven't mentioned waza or subtleties in anyway.

Subtleties in waza? ....
I wasn't talking about waza at all. I was failing to make the point that even hands on it is difficult to tell how good someone is.Its easy to tell they are a lot better than me. But, from my level of suckiness, its almost impossible to tell the difference between the good and very good, much last great masters. In most fields I'm familiar with the distinctions between the the highly skilled are subtle distinctions.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 09-30-2008, 03:41 PM   #102
rob_liberti
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

I agree with this to a degree. I kind of think about this issue in terms of 2 dumbbells look identical (same size no markings, etc.) with different density. One is a thousand pounds. The other is a million pounds. If someone asks me which one is heavier, I say I have no idea because I can't lift either.

With aiki skills I think there are some ways to tell a bit. The push on the chest in natural stance avoids a lot of external skills tricking you. Mike's instructor test where you push someone without physically moving (maybe I'm not describing it that well) for another example.

Rob
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Old 09-30-2008, 03:45 PM   #103
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Hello Mark,
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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
1. Push test. Ueshiba had people push on him often and with everything they could muster. That is not arguable. It happened. Ueshiba's students said it in interviews, Ueshiba is interviewed talking about it, Ueshiba demonstrates on video, and As Takahashi stated it on a Youtube video. No one could push him over. No one with any kind of jujutsu or judo or sumo or kendo could push him over. Theoretically, that says that there is something different that Ueshiba did that the others, who had these backgrounds, could not.
And yet nobody suggested that Ueshiba should enter the sumo world and compete --- they all seemed to accept that he and his art did not have to "prove" themselves in that arena. What do you make of that?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
The push test here is indicative of some specific skill. Does that specific skill relate to #1 above? Theoretically, I believe it does. But, more research was needed.
And what of Ueshiba's (or Sagawa's or Kodo's or Takeda's) other skills? They were all more than "guys who could pass the push test".

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
3. Dan has a teaching methodology that creates strong (budo strong) students in 3-5 years and it just progresses from there. The skills he has can be taught and in a short (relatively in the martial world *and* with the student putting in the solo and paired work) time.
Please describe this methodology. In the past, Dan seemed to suggest that he would develop a unique training program for each person who came to him to study.

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
1B. Someone else who trained under Ueshiba stated that what Dan was doing was what Ueshiba did.
Who? How long did he or she "train under Ueshiba"? When? When did he or she see Dan and make this pronouncement? If you can't (or won't) answer these questions, please don't bother to cite this as support. Argument from anonymous authority is worthless --- and you may quote me on that.

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
It's hard to argue with 4th degrees to 6th degrees about what constitutes aikido.
Oh, come on --- we do it all the time! That's one of the charms of the internet!

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
20 plus years of training. Yet, the greats never trained that long to be strong. What was it that was missed?
Just for starters, the "greats": 1) trained obsessively, maniacally, to the exclusion of normal relationships with others; 2) lived far more physically challenging lives than the average post-war, Western aikidoka; and 3) practiced frequently with kohai, sempai and sensei who were quite skilled themselves.

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3B. If you do the research, you can find where Dan trained, who he trained with, and what school. I'll give you a hint -- DR.
With most of us, there is no need for someone to "do the research". Instead, (with apologies to Dan) a simple, straightforward exchange is sufficient: "Hi, my name is ___. I practice ____. I started training with ____ in 19 (or 20)__." But that would be so ordinary...

See you on the mat eventually ---

Jim
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Old 09-30-2008, 04:03 PM   #104
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

As far as anonymous authority is concerned, well the source is good enough for me. YMMV. It's kind of like publicly describing his training methodology. The first rule of Dan's barn is you don't talk about Dan's barn. It's like fight club you just have to accept that or not, and get what info you can around that reality.

Rob
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Old 09-30-2008, 04:24 PM   #105
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

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Hello Mark, And yet nobody suggested that Ueshiba should enter the sumo world and compete --- they all seemed to accept that he and his art did not have to "prove" themselves in that arena. What do you make of that?
Hi Jim,
Nice to see some other ideas floating out there. As for Ueshiba, he was tested time and time again. I don't think he had to go elsewhere because quite often, people came to him. But, he was tested. And asked to prove himself in those tests. Only after successfully overcoming the tests did people accept him and his art.

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And what of Ueshiba's (or Sagawa's or Kodo's or Takeda's) other skills? They were all more than "guys who could pass the push test".
Yes, they had other skills. I've written some exploits about them in other threads. Ueshiba could pin someone with a finger and he could stop/freeze a man standing. Weird, huh? But, it's kind of hard to find more examples of this happening. I do run across them here and there and post them when I find them. And I have found some bits here and there where Takeda asked people to push on him or take his hand and try to do something. It kind of creates a picture of what the greats could do in Daito ryu.

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Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Please describe this methodology. In the past, Dan seemed to suggest that he would develop a unique training program for each person who came to him to study.
I guess you could say that. Everyone is different and has different areas that they have trouble with. For example, I have a hard time getting my hips and lower back to relax properly. And my pecs to relax/not fire. And to not lean. And to keep my hips forward. My shoulders down. Not to look upwards. Etc, etc, etc.

But, overall, there are things that are worked on as a group. I've mentioned (I think I have, at least) about contradictory forces going in the hands, spine, and legs. Then there's exercises for working on intent. Shiko. The wall exercise. Quite a bit of these things have been posted about already. The exercises Mike, Dan, and Rob do sometimes are very similar.

I guess I'd have to say that there are general group exercises with specific fine tunings for each individual because everyone has different areas that are trouble spots.

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Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Who? How long did he or she "train under Ueshiba"? When? When did he or she see Dan and make this pronouncement? If you can't (or won't) answer these questions, please don't bother to cite this as support. Argument from anonymous authority is worthless --- and you may quote me on that.
I can't say. We eventually found out who the 6th dan was, so maybe one of these days, the above info will come out. Otherwise, just as I did, people will have to do their own research. I'm putting the information out there. People can choose to believe it or not. Allow it to support or detract from my ideas.

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Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Oh, come on --- we do it all the time! That's one of the charms of the internet!
LOL, okay, you have me there.

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Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Just for starters, the "greats": 1) trained obsessively, maniacally, to the exclusion of normal relationships with others; 2) lived far more physically challenging lives than the average post-war, Western aikidoka; and 3) practiced frequently with kohai, sempai and sensei who were quite skilled themselves.
Ah, there we are. Fresh ideas. I don't have answers or ideas yet. It will be interesting to see if someone can dig up information on how obsessively they trained, what the environment was like, and who they practiced with. That could be very interesting. I haven't had the time yet to go into any of these, but they are certainly worth looking at.

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Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
With most of us, there is no need for someone to "do the research". Instead, (with apologies to Dan) a simple, straightforward exchange is sufficient: "Hi, my name is ___. I practice ____. I started training with ____ in 19 (or 20)__." But that would be so ordinary...

See you on the mat eventually ---

Jim
Well, I've heard it said that Budo People are weird. I know I am.
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Old 09-30-2008, 04:53 PM   #106
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

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With aiki skills I think there are some ways to tell a bit. The push on the chest in natural stance avoids a lot of external skills tricking you. Mike's instructor test where you push someone without physically moving (maybe I'm not describing it that well) for another example
It is how it is described -- but your instinct of a problem is right. f = ma ; a = dv/dt ; v = dx/dt

Without a change of position of some mass in a period of time there is no force. No physical movement means no acceleration means no force.

But I know what YOU mean -- the person moves in the zone of stability defined without changing the base of support. In many earlier discussions "not physically moving" was obstinately undefined by some who insisted on using that description. The nature of "base of support" should be also specified in a given case to remove that source of needless ambiguity (which you do in general terms).

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-30-2008, 05:14 PM   #107
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

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It is how it is described -- but your instinct of a problem is right. f = ma ; a = dv/dt ; v = dx/dt

Without a change of position of some mass in a period of time there is no force. No physical movement means no acceleration means no force.

But I know what YOU mean -- the person moves in the zone of stability defined without changing the base of support. In many earlier discussions "not physically moving" was obstinately undefined by some who insisted on using that description. The nature of "base of support" should be also specified in a given case to remove that source of needless ambiguity (which you do in general terms).
Just to be clear, the infamous "Teacher Test" was not a completely 'no movement' test. What I asked was that someone claiming to be a teacher (hence "teacher test") of "internal martial arts" put his hand on my and hit me as hard as he could *without pulling back his hand or his shoulder*. Of course someone who uses his dantien/hara for power instead of his shoulder, etc., as a bona fide teacher should, would have no real problem with this simple demonstration.

Ultimately, at higher levels, the ability to generate a lot of force with only a small motion is conforming to the old sayings about "motion approaches stillness", and so on. Although the equation of F=ma is always valid, I'd suggest that the variations of that equation which have to do with Impulse and momentum are worth thinking about, also.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 09-30-2008 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 09-30-2008, 08:32 PM   #108
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

_That_ and I just did that weird intention bubble expansion thing which somehow pushed the person pushing on my hands back. I assume some kind of fascia / anatomy trains type thing is going on underneath the skin, but as far as I'm concerned no movement muscles are activated, and that is awesome but also a very weird and almost creepy feeling.

Rob
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:20 PM   #109
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

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It is how it is described -- but your instinct of a problem is right. f = ma ; a = dv/dt ; v = dx/dt

Without a change of position of some mass in a period of time there is no force. No physical movement means no acceleration means no force.
A screwjack is used to lift up a car, so the screwjack exerts a force greater than the weight of the car. What is the mass associated with the force from the screwjack?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-30-2008, 11:16 PM   #110
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

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A screwjack is used to lift up a car, so the screwjack exerts a force greater than the weight of the car. What is the mass associated with the force from the screwjack?
In that example, the mass of the operator accelerates in a reciprocating cycle to displace a crank, turning a screw in shear. That external force (torque, actually) is applied to the screwjack, which causes a spiral extension (or retraction). A screw exerts no force, it merely holds an extension, The cranked screw provides a mechanical advantage exceeding the proportional difference in mass. The mechanical advantage of the screw is complex but (disregarding friction and angle of attack) is very roughly a function of the proportional difference in the crank length and the radius and spacing of the threads. Very large effective lever arm -- but it all works by shear.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-30-2008, 11:50 PM   #111
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

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Just to be clear, the infamous "Teacher Test" was not a completely 'no movement' test. What I asked was that someone claiming to be a teacher (hence "teacher test") of "internal martial arts" put his hand on my and hit me as hard as he could *without pulling back his hand or his shoulder*. Of course someone who uses his dantien/hara for power instead of his shoulder, etc., as a bona fide teacher should, would have no real problem with this simple demonstration.
Of course.

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Ultimately, at higher levels, the ability to generate a lot of force with only a small motion is conforming to the old sayings about "motion approaches stillness", and so on. Although the equation of F=ma is always valid, I'd suggest that the variations of that equation which have to do with Impulse and momentum are worth thinking about, also.
Large mass starts connected mass chain moving. Large mass brakes it s motion against the smaller mass of the chain out of phase (doubling the momentum input (yin+yang)). The momentum cycles to the end of the chain, reducing in radius, and mass, increasing in velocity and therefore impulse, applied to a small target area. Large radial, large mass, cyclic acceleration input -- low radius, low mass, "accelerating" acceleration (impulse) output. Conservation works.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-01-2008, 05:51 AM   #112
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Screwjack humm... I knew there was something screwy going on.
Torque okay whatever is fine... The important point is how to get that stuff happening, and no amount of modeling has produced any appreciable results. As far as "in what manner" is concerned, physics models are unproven in this domain. If such models exist to satisfy people that what we are doing is not "magic", then fine. But I took that as a given.

I continue to get advice from people that what I'm talking about sounds almost like a cult. I thought about it this morning a bit. I would like to point out that I've been going for about 2 years now (7 months more intensively) and have not paid anything - which is not like most cults I know. Whereas in aikido, I've been pressured to go to what can only be called "extortion seminars". Something to think about...

Rob
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Old 10-01-2008, 09:09 AM   #113
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

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In that example, the mass of the operator accelerates in a reciprocating cycle to displace a crank, turning a screw in shear. That external force (torque, actually) is applied to the screwjack, which causes a spiral extension (or retraction). A screw exerts no force, it merely holds an extension, The cranked screw provides a mechanical advantage exceeding the proportional difference in mass. The mechanical advantage of the screw is complex but (disregarding friction and angle of attack) is very roughly a function of the proportional difference in the crank length and the radius and spacing of the threads. Very large effective lever arm -- but it all works by shear.
How about the mass the screwjack is sitting on, though? I.e., in the transfer of forces to the car, the solid connection to the earth plays a role in the mass x acceleration component of the force equation. The mass of the earth is considerable. If you are "straightening out" a force that derives its support from the earth, let's say a punch for example, it affects the whole perspective of F = ma and brings into play some applicable thoughts about Impulse and momentum.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:06 PM   #114
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

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FYI in case you didn't see the On Closing Threads thread, Mr. Mead should be on everyone's ignore list if these threads are to have a reasonable chance of continuing.
Putting fingers in one's ears is not very persuasive as a reasoned argument.

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rob_liberti wrote:
As far as "in what manner" is concerned, physics models are unproven in this domain. If such models exist to satisfy people that what we are doing is not "magic", then fine. But I took that as a given.
Physics models are so far mostly unapplied in this domain. Physics models have to be developed through the interaction of experience and principled theory of action. The models themselves are well-accepted and require no proof, only the applicability of a given model to a given action needs to be shown.

"Magic" is perceived for one of two reasons 1) the observer failed to perceive the actual action that occurred, or 2) the observer perceives the action, but does not understand the nature of the action he is witnessing. (OK. Three reasons. 3) the observer understands both one and two but has a delusional belief that it is not so, all appearances to the contrary notwithstanding. We can dismiss item 3) for our purposes.)

So far, the arguments levelled against a "physical model" point of view assume the first -- whereas I am simply investigating the second without making unstated assumptions. So I try to ask that assumptions be stated, mine, yours, Mike's, everyone's.

That is why there is this disconnect in every discussion. We (you and I) are addressing the latter point in divergent terms (not in itself a problem). You and I, (and it seems, perhaps now, Mike S.) are at least acknowledging the existence of valid but divergent terms of reference without making unnecessary assumptions as to the validity of the perception or experience.

Others feel that because they perform the action that they therefore necessarily understand its physical nature. That is an one of those unstated and unwarranted assumptions. It is, quite simply, a non sequitur fallacy and it underlies much of the recurrent dispute. A non sequitur is not an accusation or personal aside. It is just a illogical leap that does not follow from the premise of an argument. The conclusion reached may be right or wrong as a conclusion, but it is not a rational conclusion. Some of those further assume that any point of view that addresses its nature in terms they do not share or wish to be troubled to grasp, necessarily does not grasp the essential performance of the action.

People sailed boats centuries before they understood the nature of the action involved. Most of those in the discussion admit they do not understand the nature of the action, regardless of their performance. Some like Mike S. have alien (China not CE3K) systems of reference which are rigorous in their own right. Some don't disclose their methods, making it impossible to adequately assess in these or any other terms. Others satisfy themselves with speculation on the workings of a "black-box" input-output function. That is completely appropriate for practical sailing. But the difference of sixty years in applied physical models has gotten more areas of knowledge further than it has not.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:58 PM   #115
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

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How about the mass the screwjack is sitting on, though? I.e., in the transfer of forces to the car, the solid connection to the earth plays a role in the mass x acceleration component of the force equation. The mass of the earth is considerable. If you are "straightening out" a force that derives its support from the earth, let's say a punch for example, it affects the whole perspective of F = ma and brings into play some applicable thoughts about Impulse and momentum.
No one said it didn't. The mass the screwjack is sitting on (the earth) is moving, but so is everything else in this relative frame of reference. Relative momentum between the car, the earth, the jack and the driving motor or body is initially zero. The crank is turned by the oscillating driving of the inverted pendulum of the COM about its point of support on the ground. Even kneeling down by the tire wheel the torso has to oscillate as the arm turns the crank to turn the screw to raise the jack, ("which lay in the house that Jack built"). If the body oscillates as a resting reactive mass, the arm will wear out from fatigue because it is doing most of the work pushing on the body as much as it pushes on the crank -- if it oscillates as a tuned driving mass -- the arm muscles are not doing the bulk of the work, and the same impulse that is created in driving the crank, can drive the punch, and is seen in funetori undo, saya undo, ude furi, furitama, tekubifuri. The nature of this oscillating action is, as I comprehend the term, "KI."

The earth is large enough to be both a resting reactive mass (thrust base) and a passive driving mass (gravity), and thinking about those aspects in this way is entirely correct, but they are a special case of a more general principle. If I thrust at the earth to punch, and I miss -- I am launching my own mass off the ground (kuzushi). If I use an mechanically amplified oscillation, pivoting with gravity on that support and recovering with the earht's reactive mass rather than projecting thrust from it, I can more easily stop the action most anywhere at zero. The magnitude of the energy is derived from the difference in potential in separating the positive and negative phases of it. As long as keep them separated I create large magnitude action or potential action and as soon as I bring them together again they inherently restore a zero state. Sword work, working on precision in point, path and placement in strikes thrusts and nagashi in kumitachi, teaches this principle implicitly.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 10-01-2008, 02:28 PM   #116
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

In the case of the screwjack, in the F=ma formula the only m that is relevant is the car's mass (actually a fraction of it, because the screwjack isn't supposed to lift the whole car). Erick explained very clearly how the operator exerts his force through the screwjack's mechanism (itself standing on the ground, hence using the earth's reaction force) to move the car and affect its position. The operator's mass isn't relevant here, what matters is that he exerts force, one way or the other.

If we apply the same model to the teacher's test, the car is the tester, the teacher is both the operator (source of initial force) and the screwjack (whose purpose is to transform the existing forces = gravity, earth's reaction, operator's force).

I'm reading Tohei sensei's Book of Ki, and the way he describes hi famous 4 principles is actually about optimisation of the body's inner tensions (used to sustain the body's structure in static and dynamic situations) as well as the combination of forces that it cannot escape (gravity and the earth's reaction).

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Old 10-01-2008, 04:02 PM   #117
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Sort of sidetracked from the original topic ... Try to keep it on track, please.

IMO, the example of the car and screwjack is completely useless. I believe I've stated this before (maybe not, my mind might be playing tricks on me), but bare metal is a poor substitute for the human body.

No one (currently known, that is) on the planet Earth can detail in Physics how the human body goes from the walk to the run cycle. No one (currently known) can design robotics using human physics. It is, as yet, out of their grasp. So, I think it is kind of silly to see certain people trying to detail out in physics terms what is going on with internal exercises or skills. The best and brightest minds on this planet can't do it. And the best I've yet to see here, on Aikiweb, is basic, low-level, freshman physics equations that any joe schmoe on the street could fathom in one semester.

So, please, please, please, if you're going to talk about physics models, open a brand new thread and talk about it there. I personally think that not only is it less than useless, but it muddies the water for other people to wade through to get to the better posts.

Mark
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Old 10-01-2008, 04:17 PM   #118
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

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Sort of sidetracked from the original topic ... Try to keep it on track, please.

IMO, the example of the car and screwjack is completely useless. I believe I've stated this before (maybe not, my mind might be playing tricks on me), but bare metal is a poor substitute for the human body.
Oh well, fair enough, let's drop it. Although I tend to think that an expanding groundpath is quite a bit like an expanding screwjack, what do I know?

Best.

Mike
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Old 10-01-2008, 07:39 PM   #119
MM
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Oh well, fair enough, let's drop it. Although I tend to think that an expanding groundpath is quite a bit like an expanding screwjack, what do I know?

Best.

Mike
LOL! You already know that I don't know as much as you know. But, the illustration just isn't working for me. Course, you can try bashing it into my stubborn head in another thread.

Mark
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Old 10-01-2008, 07:59 PM   #120
Cady Goldfield
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Don't feel bad, Mark. I have no idea what a screw jack is.
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Old 10-01-2008, 08:03 PM   #121
Walker
 
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Don't feel bad, Mark. I have no idea what a screw jack is.
pornstar

-Doug Walker
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Old 10-01-2008, 08:07 PM   #122
Ron Tisdale
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Damn! Just fell out of my chair again!

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-01-2008, 08:16 PM   #123
Cady Goldfield
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Four times in one night, Ron? I thought three's the charm!
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Old 10-02-2008, 08:19 AM   #124
DH
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

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Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Hello Mark, And yet nobody suggested that Ueshiba should enter the sumo world and compete --- they all seemed to accept that he and his art did not have to "prove" themselves in that arena. What do you make of that?

And what of Ueshiba's (or Sagawa's or Kodo's or Takeda's) other skills?
They were all more than "guys who could pass the push test".

Just for starters, the "greats": 1) trained obsessively, maniacally, to the exclusion of normal relationships with others; 2) lived far more physically challenging lives than the average post-war, Western aikidoka; and 3) practiced frequently with kohai, sempai and sensei who were quite skilled themselves.

Jim
Jim
You spend a lot of time being seemingly contrary, and stressing either aikido and or simply skills over the power inherent in this type of training. Or at least that Aikido skills are equal to this training

You have met and trained with people who train this way as well. Your statements - when viewed as a whole in many posts - seem to express an opinion this training appears to be just another *thing* you need to do, just another *tool* in your tool box.that is marginally or partly useful in your Aikido. This would exaplin your notion of obesseeive training against multiple arts and kohei and sempai and many hours training in waza.

Am I correct then in reading you, that apparently you feel you can handle Ark or Mike with your Aikido? That what they do is fine, but really your aikido skills would take them apart? If not-why not?

I find this curious as I have seen a totally different response. Everyone I have met from 3rd Dan to 6th dan, has decided what I am doing....that the training I've shown and what they feel I am displaying- in use-is the essence of aikido. They have decided this almost immediately

So...why do you think there is such a different view between them and you?
You never seem to support the idea that these skills are also stand alone power in use, you don't state it, and only stress the obverse view -such as in your quote above- when the subject is brought up. All while only talking about a push test.
Is this how you currently see these skills-as push tests? That's fine if it's due to the fact that it's all you been shown at your current level is just push tests, so its all you are currently able to assess? However, if you have been shown more, why not talk about that-since you brough it up. In other words, if you have been shown more, are your comments, in reducing these skills only to push tests, designed to demean this type of training or marginalize it? Or genuinely how you feel? If your comments are genuine, and not political I guess it explains why you still see Ueshiba's power as waza training.

I find it curious as I'd bet that on any day I could take your entire Aikido skill set apart and stop you cold, while...only...using these skills without any defined waza at all. For some reason, I think I'd include both Ark and Mike in that bet as well.
Can you see how that can be the case? If not, why do you suppose you can't see that?
Being that I find your sentiments curious I'm wondering;
How do you see these skills- in light of or in comparison to-your aikido skill sets?

Last edited by DH : 10-02-2008 at 08:31 AM.
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Old 10-02-2008, 09:46 AM   #125
DH
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I find it curious as I'd bet that on any day I could take your entire Aikido skill set apart and stop you cold, while...only...using these skills without any defined waza at all. For some reason, I think I'd include both Ark and Mike in that bet as well.
Can you see how that can be the case? If not, why do you suppose you can't see that?
Being that I find your sentiments curious I'm wondering;
How do you see these skills- in light of or in comparison to-your aikido skill sets?
Wanted to be clear in what I meant. I think Mike , or Ark could utilize these skills, sans waza to neutralize Jim's aikido. It's not important that its Jim, I addressed Jim only in that he "seems" to discount it. I am attempting to stress that the body training is not being looked at, as its own skill set; it's own potential, to produce powerful effects in motion that inherently nuetralize and control incoming forces and waza attempts.
From there the skills to use a body trained this way-build, and you continue to refine your skills in any venue you choose to use them in, in what ever art. In that sense I don't seem them as an *other tool* in the box.
They are the box.

Last edited by DH : 10-02-2008 at 09:52 AM.
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