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Old 06-30-2008, 08:31 PM   #201
Counsel
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

I am just starting Aikido having spent some time with ju-jitsu. This topic of "it" has interested me, but I want to make sure I understand some of the topics better. So, I ask for some clarification:

John Matsushima wrote:
Does this mean the one of the most basic of Aikido basics, tenkan, is not Aiki?

Robert John wrote:
Basically, yes, if it's done only copying the rote form.
Tenkan done "inside" the body would be a different thing.

If the movement is the same (and I mean exactly the same), what is the difference? Is it different physically? Or is it mental? Is it implied that the movement done "inside" provides more power or is more effective? Or is it that the person doing it "inside" is more ...... (something)?

Thanks, and I'll wait for an answer
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Old 06-30-2008, 08:32 PM   #202
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
How? It would be interesting to hear where you find similarites in your training, Jenn?
I think the quote of the day covers it pretty good, as it happens.

But I sure wish you'd come to my dojo and teach some eager students in the future,please.

Perhaps then you can watch me teach, feel what it feels to be near me ,and then you can know what I mean and I can do the same. It is my experience in this forum and others that words sometimes don't cut it.I could try, I spose, and then it will go . But I'll give it some contemplation and see what arises.

For me it's like music, I can tell you all about it, send you some reviews, but you gotta see it/hear it/ feel it to know what it feels/sounds like. And then, it's a band for you or not. Either way, I love to share.

My invitation is sincere and I hope you find yourself in this area where I will gladly put you up. Especially because you have been so courteous.
Thanks,
Jen

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 06-30-2008 at 08:35 PM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 06-30-2008, 08:41 PM   #203
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Kevin and William, et al.

Sorry for being unclear. (I'm fully engaged with a 4 year old and I can only spare a few moments at a time to post - so it's not as well thought out as when I might be killing time listening to someone blather on - on a work phone conference. Anyhoo...)

I DO believe that undertsanding angle of attack is a good thing to work. It's just that it is not a good thing to work PRIOR to working the internal structure stuff. Once you got that down, I certainly see the advantage of adding that (which was my point about adding those kind of finesse movements on top of the internal "power" and aiki training). I've gone down the road of depending on this angle of attack movement before developing the power and given both options, I would only recommend that way to someone I really disliked.

Rob
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Old 06-30-2008, 08:49 PM   #204
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Understand Rob...I agree, moving out of the way, IMO really requires not much skill. It is the reason, I believe why I studied aikido for years...you know the whole move off the line, irimi, tenkan, and THEN do something...and FAILED against a grappler.

I missed the whole point of the engagement.

It looks cool and all that...but is not really much skill.

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Old 06-30-2008, 08:54 PM   #205
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Rob:

Thanks for clearing that up! I feel enlightened now

Jennifer;

I like your use of "music," and I think I will use it as well.

Dan:

Can one feel "it" only at times? There are techniques I can perform and see the music.

However, there are times when, especially when learning something new, where the music is not present even though I know the notes.

Make any sense?
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Old 06-30-2008, 09:01 PM   #206
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
James Taylor wrote: View Post
John Matsushima wrote:
Does this mean the one of the most basic of Aikido basics, tenkan, is not Aiki?

Robert John wrote:
Basically, yes, if it's done only copying the rote form.
Tenkan done "inside" the body would be a different thing.

If the movement is the same (and I mean exactly the same), what is the difference? Is it different physically? Or is it mental? Is it implied that the movement done "inside" provides more power or is more effective? Or is it that the person doing it "inside" is more ...... (something)?
It's not the same... no... yes... partly... not necessarily... yeah, something.

Although I don't know Rob, never met him, I do get (surprise, surprise) what he means by "tenkan inside the body". Firstly, it's not the same thing as the basic aikido tenkan. Where aikido tenkan (an external movement) involves pivoting on your lead foot and drawing the other one back in an arc, a tenkan done *inside* the body is just that - INSIDE the body.

Without giving too much away... your spine is the central axis upon which your upper body is slung over the arch of your inside legs. Imagine your spine as a vertical axle that can turn (left and right) on its axis. In fact it can and does. So, any force acting upon your upper body can be deflected tangentially by your vertical axis turning inside your body - WITHOUT moving your feet or upper body - more precisely, without pivoting your foot, or twisting your hips, or turning your chest/shoulders.

Let's use suwari waza ikkyo as an example... it's the classic idea of the circle in the square... so without moving your knees or arm, and just manipulating uke's press against your extended tegatana... how would you "turn" on the inside to get them to roll off to the side into ikkyo?

Last edited by eyrie : 06-30-2008 at 09:04 PM.

Ignatius
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Old 06-30-2008, 09:10 PM   #207
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
James Taylor wrote: View Post
<snip>
Can one feel "it" only at times? There are techniques I can perform and see the music.

However, there are times when, especially when learning something new, where the music is not present even though I know the notes.
Err James, don't take it quite so literal.
We're talking about a trained and conditioned skill. You should be able to manifest it at all times. So long as some part of your body is touching the ground, you should be able to do "it"

My advice, go and see some people reputed to be skillful in these things and go feel for yourself. You'll leave the others that are waiting for these skills to come to them, in the dust.

On an off hand note, I find the increasing interest in internal skills entertaining, in a good way. Over here in Japan, it's almost impossible to find Japanese students that are willing to learn this stuff, even after they get their asses handed to them. Most of them, either mope after they get tooled, or just can't hack the exercises (physically and mentally) and just fade away. They realize the amount of work that needs to be done and just...give up.
The ones that haven't tried are content to wait on the sidelines, seeing if xxxx teacher will really get popular enough to certify their "ability."
Funny thing is, I think the outcome out of all this is that in 10 years time or so, we may see a larger spread of these skills in the foreign community as opposed to within the Japanese.
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Old 06-30-2008, 11:58 PM   #208
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
I do get (surprise, surprise) what he means by "tenkan inside the body". Firstly, it's not the same thing as the basic aikido tenkan.... a tenkan done *inside* the body is just that - INSIDE the body. ... So, any force acting upon your upper body can be deflected tangentially by your vertical axis turning inside your body - WITHOUT moving your feet or upper body - more precisely, without pivoting your foot, or twisting your hips, or turning your chest/shoulders.
Spiral winding juji (90 degrees) shear stress in simultaneous tension/compression This forms a standing torsion wave (Horizontal vice vertical, but you get the idea):
Click image for larger version

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The intercostal internus with the ribs and transversus follow these bias shear ply lines taking those crossing spiral lines around the the body.

These allow a spiral moment (tendency to rotate/standing wave) or a spiral movement (a dynamic spiral wave). Limbs just follow in the same manner (asagao). Tension can be potentiated in either of the spirals by -- surprise -- breath control. Structure and dynamic are the same.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 07-01-2008 at 12:01 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-01-2008, 12:12 AM   #209
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
It's not the same... no... yes... partly... not necessarily... yeah, something.

Without giving too much away... your spine is the central axis upon which your upper body is slung over the arch of your inside legs. Imagine your spine as a vertical axle that can turn (left and right) on its axis. In fact it can and does. So, any force acting upon your upper body can be deflected tangentially by your vertical axis turning inside your body - WITHOUT moving your feet or upper body - more precisely, without pivoting your foot, or twisting your hips, or turning your chest/shoulders.
I have a science background, so I understand some of what we call body mechanics. The movement of muscles on the inside generally moves muscles/tissue visible on the outside--even if only in small amounts/distances. I can understand tightening different muscle groups to shift your ability to react. However, this, to me, is still a physical act. If this is what you describe, then describing which muscles you tighten/use is something we should be able to do as teachers and practice as students. I would have thought, unless everyone is teaching tenkan wrong, that I, as a student, am learning tenkan correctly. If I am or not (or most of us are not), then, imho, aikido needs to review what it is teaching because unlearning a "wrong" after years of practice is .. not efficient for the student, the teacher, or the art.

So, does this "internal" action shift my center of gravity, tighten specific muscles inside by body (affecting my ability to react to a push), or something you could better describe with another example...?

However, if you mean by "internal" what many have called "by the power of Ki..."
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Old 07-01-2008, 12:14 AM   #210
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Spiral winding juji (90 degrees) shear stress in simultaneous tension/compression This forms a standing torsion wave (Horizontal vice vertical, but you get the idea):
Attachment 505

The intercostal internus with the ribs and transversus follow these bias shear ply lines taking those crossing spiral lines around the the body.

These allow a spiral moment (tendency to rotate/standing wave) or a spiral movement (a dynamic spiral wave). Limbs just follow in the same manner (asagao). Tension can be potentiated in either of the spirals by -- surprise -- breath control. Structure and dynamic are the same.
I can barely wrap my head around this but I'll bet I have expressed tenkan this way.

Thanks Eric ( I think? LOL )

William Hazen
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Old 07-01-2008, 12:38 AM   #211
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
James Taylor wrote: View Post
I have a science background, so I understand some of what we call body mechanics. <snip> I can understand tightening different muscle groups to shift your ability to react. However, this, to me, is still a physical act.
<snip> it is teaching because unlearning a "wrong" after years of practice is .. not efficient for the student, the teacher, or the art.
So now you're getting to the heart of the matter

Here's a quick sum-up of the skills being discussed:
http://www.unleashingfong.com/martia...ernal_Strength

Knowing "which" muscles to move, is about as useful as myself trying to teach a 5 year old how to ride a bike by telling him exactly which muscles to use.

It's a learned skill, plus it takes a certain conditioning of the body in order to pull off, as mentioned in the link I posted. The skills get deeper and more complex the more you condition the body.
Ever see the kokyu-ho demo that Ueshiba does with single fingers?
That's child's play once you've been working on these things for about 2 years. (Assuming your demo dummy isn't as skilled as you are )
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Old 07-01-2008, 01:27 AM   #212
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
James Taylor wrote:
I can understand tightening different muscle groups to shift your ability to react....So, does this "internal" action shift my center of gravity, tighten specific muscles inside by body (affecting my ability to react to a push), or something you could better describe with another example...?
I wouldn't say "tightening"...perhaps "tension" might be a better word, in the sense of a bow/guitar string, rather than "tensing" which is what "tightening" seems to connotate.

But I'm no science major and what Erick said just went over the top of my head...

Sure there is *some* muscle involved, but not in the way you're thinking... and the aikido tenkan you're talking about is purely an "external" form...

Maybe this might be a better way to approach it. OK, assuming you can do an external tenkan movement... which most people should be able to. Now, what if, you are stuck in thick mud up to your shoulders and you cannot move? How would you tenkan? What "moves"? Assume your feet are still in contact with the floor...

Where would you initiate the turning from? Where does it get conveyed to? How would you translate a directional force into a tangential force?

Ignatius
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Old 07-01-2008, 06:55 AM   #213
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

William,

I cannot answer for Dan, but from my own perspective a lot of the movement you described is going to get re-worked. You just don't half-step tenkan in the same way (by moving hips) at least initially.

But your training passion will certainly prepare you for the hard work of making big changes to train smarter. Also, some of the time you had put in to other MMA will probably need to take a back seat for small window while you change over a bit, and then I would say you'll be able to get more bang for your buck when you do ground fighting or other types of MMA skills that may interest you.

In my opinion, the main thing to prepare for new body movements is getting rid of tightness as much as possible. Do yoga, get some deep tissue massages, do some fasting, whatever it takes so that when you learn new things with your body it's not any more difficult than it has to be.

Rob
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Old 07-01-2008, 08:15 AM   #214
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
James Taylor wrote: View Post
I have a science background, so I understand some of what we call body mechanics. The movement of muscles on the inside generally moves muscles/tissue visible on the outside--even if only in small amounts/distances. I can understand tightening different muscle groups to shift your ability to react. However, this, to me, is still a physical act. If this is what you describe, then describing which muscles you tighten/use is something we should be able to do as teachers and practice as students.
The skill set involves physical action in a different mode from conventional muscle recruitment. Now the problem with trying to sharply define a certain set of muscles to activate and then saying to a student, "ok now do it with those muscles", is that the student would quite naturally use conventional muscle recruitment to activate the specified muscle sets and get nowhere in their training.

The early part of training involves certain visualizations to "trick" your own body into forgetting its original conventional muscular mode of movement, and using instead the new patterns of coordination that you are trying to burn in.
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Old 07-01-2008, 08:21 AM   #215
Timothy WK
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
1. Our Hanmi has both feet pointed forward in a manner similar to Kendo or some Koryu Waza. Our toes remain pointed/centered on Uke and we are light on our feet moving through our body.

2.Most movement are done "half step" IOW the footwork is smaller in circumferance... more circular... and helps to keep your back straight centered in your hips and relaxed.
I don't really have answers, but here are some thoughts:

1. While there are certainly reasons and ways to move in a "square" fashion, I'm skeptical of what you suggest. Many (kenjutsu) koryu members bemoan the influence of kendo on modern movement. Colin Watkins, of Kage-ryu & Niten Ichi-ryu & whatever else fame, has said that he sees kendo's square footwork bleeding into, and (by implication) corrupting, otherwise traditional sword forms (look up his posts over at E-Budo).

(BTW, without getting too off-track, which koryu actually suggest square footwork? I'm just curious, 'cause it's not that way in Itto-ryu, one of kendo's biggest influences.)

It is my argument that (efficient) diagonal and sideways movement (hito-e-mi) is predicated on manipulating the pelvic girdle/crease. So at the very least, this type of movement---common among koryu kenjutsu---serves certain internal training needs... And I know Dan wants to jump in, so I'll cut him off now: Yes(!), if this type of movement is executed as an external form only, without internal connection, it can actually weaken your balance. But if done with cross-body connection the way it's suppose to be, it's just as strong as anything.

2. I don't see how circular steps do anything that can't be done with straight steps. So it's probably just different, not better or worse... And there is potential that it's "worse". Sometimes twisting/turning/circular movement is actually a sign that you're bleeding internal connection... But without seeing what exactly you're doing, I would guess that your movement is simply "different". It all depends on what you're doing exactly.

--Timothy Kleinert

Aikido & Wujifa qigongs
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Old 07-01-2008, 11:11 AM   #216
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Power in motion- tenkan and Irimi

It bears repeating that all of these discussions were had, and then those who would came and met those who were arguing a different way to move, and then went...”Oh. Never mind.”
In context of the thread, I had asked where peoples current understanding was after feeling some of these things and training it. I think some people have a ways to go in grasping its full potential. They are still thinking in external terms.

There is a way to maintain a central balance with the body turning on the inside that will affect you in unexpected ways, in grappling on the ground, or standing, in getting hit with it etc. You can move without giving ground and wreak havoc on the structure of someone engaging you. It can be done in motion, in vectoring, or moving forward through them or in retreat. Its still the same body connection regardless. No…it is NOT having to stand still.
An explanation I gave a long time ago
Imagine there is a thick pole in the ground rising vertically, with a peg stuck through it at chest height.
Imagine I told you to hold on to the arms of the peg.
Imagine the pole is a drive shaft stuck into an engine below the floor you couldn't have seen.
Imagine me turning it on
Imagine you in the hospital with two broken arms and a concussion from where you landed on your head.
Imagine me asking you to do it again
Imagine the peg now has two arms welded to it with boxing gloves.
Imagine the drive shaft through the floor is now a 300 horsepower washing machine agitator
Imagine me turning it on
Imagine you in the hospital with a broken -everything.
Since the agitator destroyed your bones with power, do you think it lost its balance and had to take Ukemi? Do you think it lost a degree of force delivery and bounced back?
People are usually a “mess in motion,” loose sacks of grain that in various ways bleed out energy all over the place. With so much slack, or worse so much tension in movement that they loose or dissipate the greater portion of their power before it is delivered.
Add to that most of them missing the center. I cannot tell you how many DR and Aikido guys I have asked to take my center and they haven’t a freakin clue how to find it. Center on touch was an embarrassing joke in their hands.
Now
Imagine a door with a pivot in the middle
If you push on the left you get slammed from the right as you fell into the negative "hole" from the door freely spinning.
Imagine pushing very hard and fast.
Imagine getting out of the hospital and me asking you to do it again
This time the door has a big silver ball bearing in the middle supported at a 45 degree angle off the floor from the back
Imagine pushing on any part of the freewheeling door and getting slammed from the others corner or side.

Imagine getting out of the hospital and me asking you to do it again
Now
Imagine the door...with a free will and mind of its own, vectoring and moving with you and coming after you.

The only thing left to do is ask whether or not you know someone who knows a way to make your body capable of absorbing and delivering power in that manner.
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Old 07-01-2008, 11:18 AM   #217
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
William,

I cannot answer for Dan, but from my own perspective a lot of the movement you described is going to get re-worked. You just don't half-step tenkan in the same way (by moving hips) at least initially.

But your training passion will certainly prepare you for the hard work of making big changes to train smarter. Also, some of the time you had put in to other MMA will probably need to take a back seat for small window while you change over a bit, and then I would say you'll be able to get more bang for your buck when you do ground fighting or other types of MMA skills that may interest you.

In my opinion, the main thing to prepare for new body movements is getting rid of tightness as much as possible. Do yoga, get some deep tissue massages, do some fasting, whatever it takes so that when you learn new things with your body it's not any more difficult than it has to be.

Rob
Thanks for the kind reply Rob...I practice Bikram Yoga a few times a week and Kundilini Yoga the rest of the time. that and Surfing along with years of Judo have blessed me with a good 'beginner" center hopefully basic enough to begin to understand Dan's and your curriculum. We are are excitied about the future prospect of learning real internal technique to improve our Aikido.

William Hazen
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Old 07-01-2008, 11:22 AM   #218
DH
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Tim
Much of my critique in same-side motion has to do with where the weight is. Any time the weight gets transfered to one side it is vulnerable. What receives / feeds. Absorption and delivery needs to be all crossline. It is the best way to resist throws, it is the best way to deliver strikes and kicks. Guys who would attempt to throw you would be standing there wondering "what the.....?" when they cannot take your weight or center, and you dumped them on their ass, or sent a power delivery right through them. It also greatly enhances center on contact in free movement as the wieght is much harder to capture.
I'll wait till we meet and feel each others weight to decide if we are talking about the same thing..
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Old 07-01-2008, 11:24 AM   #219
John Ruhl
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post

Here's a quick sum-up of the skills being discussed:
http://www.unleashingfong.com/martia...ernal_Strength
Robert -

Thanks very much for putting together that wiki and posting the link to it. I have been wishing for something like that for a while, and it's great to know about it. Much appreciated.

-John
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Old 07-01-2008, 11:49 AM   #220
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Hi Dan,
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
[u]
Imagine there is a thick pole in the ground rising vertically, with a peg stuck through it at chest height.
Imagine I told you to hold on to the arms of the peg.
Imagine the pole is a drive shaft stuck into an engine below the floor you couldn't have seen.
Imagine me turning it on
Imagine you in the hospital with two broken arms and a concussion from where you landed on your head.
Imagine me asking you to do it again
Imagine the peg now has two arms welded to it with boxing gloves.
Imagine the drive shaft through the floor is now a 300 horsepower washing machine agitator
Imagine me turning it on
Imagine you in the hospital with a broken -everything.
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

. . . with a broken everything.

-ck
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Old 07-01-2008, 11:52 AM   #221
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I tend to look at Aikido movement like Iai movement. The opening of the hips and chest and turning from the hips just bleeds away power and stability. Even when they draw with the hips its weakness not a strength.
Hi Dan, can you say a bit more about "opening of the hips and chest"? The image that comes to my mind is of someone who in hamni pushes their belly button forward, making space in front but compressing the back. But you might mean something completely different?

kvaak
Pauliina
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Old 07-01-2008, 11:55 AM   #222
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
I don't really have answers, but here are some thoughts:

1. While there are certainly reasons and ways to move in a "square" fashion, I'm skeptical of what you suggest. Many (kenjutsu) koryu members bemoan the influence of kendo on modern movement. Colin Watkins, of Kage-ryu & Niten Ichi-ryu & whatever else fame, has said that he sees kendo's square footwork bleeding into, and (by implication) corrupting, otherwise traditional sword forms (look up his posts over at E-Budo).

(BTW, without getting too off-track, which koryu actually suggest square footwork? I'm just curious, 'cause it's not that way in Itto-ryu, one of kendo's biggest influences.)

It is my argument that (efficient) diagonal and sideways movement (hito-e-mi) is predicated on manipulating the pelvic girdle/crease. So at the very least, this type of movement---common among koryu kenjutsu---serves certain internal training needs... And I know Dan wants to jump in, so I'll cut him off now: Yes(!), if this type of movement is executed as an external form only, without internal connection, it can actually weaken your balance. But if done with cross-body connection the way it's suppose to be, it's just as strong as anything.

2. I don't see how circular steps do anything that can't be done with straight steps. So it's probably just different, not better or worse... And there is potential that it's "worse". Sometimes twisting/turning/circular movement is actually a sign that you're bleeding internal connection... But without seeing what exactly you're doing, I would guess that your movement is simply "different". It all depends on what you're doing exactly.
Hi Tim,

Thanks for the post. Hopefully by answering your question I'll clear up a few things.

Shoji Nishio's Aikido was heavily influanced by his practice in Nihon Zendoku Iaido, Shintō Musō-ryū jōjutsu, Hōzōin-ryū sōjutsu along with Karate Shindō jinen-ryū and Judo Kodokan Judo... He held middle to high Dan ranks in each.

So perhaps my description of our Hanmi is a bit off because we really don't not have a stance in the sense that Nishio believed that having a stance was too agressive and not Aikido. So we stand centered on Uke and (using Rob's great description) use finesse and small natural movements. Nishio felt the old Iwama and Hombu Hanmi were too dangerous because as you imply and I grasp you're not centered on Uke's center and you're bleeding half your power away by focusing your back foot away "from the center circle of Uke"

Our basic foot work is

Tai No Tenkan- Applied at 45 and 90 degrees towards Uke's Center
in both Ai Hanmi and Gyaku Hanmi

Irimi Tenkan- Entering joining with Uke using...

Suri Ashi- A single half or full slide in towards Ukes front Center or Rear with or without Tai No Tenkan and/or Irimi Tenkan.

At all times our Aikido works best when Nage is relaxed and centered using the "half step" description I have given. The same with our Atemi.

The footwork and handwork of our Aikido is all weapons related in the sense that we remain relaxed "bait" or allow Uke to enter then join with Uke and cut...The hand work in our Aikido is also quite different in most cases.

I am hoping that our relaxed martial approach to Aikido will provide a good base for buliding on the Internal aspects that Dan promotes...

Hopefully Tim this post gives you a better set of facts and clears up any misconceptions I may have conveyed.

William Hazen
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Old 07-01-2008, 11:57 AM   #223
DH
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Chhi'mčd Künzang wrote: View Post
Hi Dan,

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

. . . with a broken everything.

-ck
Ah..but there needn't be damage-just control.
Even though Osensei stated everything begins with atemi and that his atemi had the power to kill.
The type of movement quality is very controlling-even fun. Waddya think we wreck each other and throw away the pieces.
I'll be willing to betcha over which methods offers the greater potential for control over another humans violent actions without causing harm.
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Old 07-01-2008, 12:02 PM   #224
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Thanks Dan Tim and Rob for taking the time to break things down. I am now understanding "it" a bit better.

William Hazen
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Old 07-01-2008, 12:33 PM   #225
DH
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote: View Post
Hi Dan, can you say a bit more about "opening of the hips and chest"? The image that comes to my mind is of someone who in hamni pushes their belly button forward, making space in front but compressing the back. But you might mean something completely different?

kvaak
Pauliina
Hi Paulina
Hanmi offers most the opportunity to bleed energy-usually at a about a 30 to 45 deg angle in the direction of whichever hip is the rear hip. Left leg back bleed left, right-bleed right. Push on them and they you feel it almost immediately. If you let go suddenly, they spring-up in whatever direction they are commpensating for.

The belly, back and chest thing
A common Aikido form is to see the deep hanmi with the foot forward in line with the rear sometimes with a space,
sometimes almost directly in line,like the Yoshin kan stances with their bellly deep and forward and the back just loving the feel of the Koshiita. Various pressurizing on them often sees the chest open and rise with the resultant shoulder loading up or scapular separation. There is no way to sink energy effectively like that, or disperse through the back and frame.
Again with weapons in many Koryu you will not see the body move that way. As I noted in Iai- in many of the tapes you can see them cut left, the hips go left, cut right, the hips go right. Worse as they draw the sword and do sayabiki the chest opens wide. There is a way to do sayabiki in the body without opening the chest.
but the hip stuff makes slack and gaps in motion, if you consider bujutsu movement and the very practical need to be mobile and stepping forward -then that way of moving is obviously not the way to go. Yet cutting -with the cut powered by the waist-with the hips in-line is not something often seen in Iai or Aikido. Actually I have never seen it, even with certain schools with Kashima influence.

It's hard to describe movement. There is plenty of old and newer video to watch. I have had people say "we do that too" but I haven't met one yet, not one, from Iai, or Aikido who actually could demonstrate power that way. even when they er...artificially tried to convince me they were.and always had been. The body method takes practice and can be tested, and bodies generally speak volumes and reveal much about what their "occupant" really knows.
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