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Old 06-25-2008, 11:05 AM   #126
DH
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Come on Rob. I saw right off you were going to be testy and difficult so I hypnotized you before every class.

I can't explain all the other people who have come, and who have trained and tested my regulars and found what they could do. Maybe all my regulars are magicians and have been hypnotizing me

I also don't know how I faked out the various MMA, BJJ and Judo guys over the years. Maybe I am as charming as my Mom thought
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:22 AM   #127
Howard Popkin
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Freaky! Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Dan,

Why do you think the beer is so important?

I'm not really throwing anyone, they are falling because I get them drunk

Howie

PS I guess I entered the discussion on my own this time
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:25 AM   #128
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Now Dan, you are a charming SOXXX aren't you?

Dude, this stuff is a waste of time. The folks that understand, understand completely. The ones of those who understand and do the work will get it. The rest will flounder. I'm trying to move from floundering to getting it. So are others. Post the thread again in 5 years...then we'll see. Or not. It doesn't matter. The levels you are talking about are only for the 5% anyway.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:30 AM   #129
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Howard

Well the Florida guys told me there was always something "fishy" about you.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:32 AM   #130
Howard Popkin
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Touche
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:38 AM   #131
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Well, seriously, there is a group hypnosis effect that happens in aikido a bit. We do it to ourselves. The sensei bows in, and the entire class bows back (generally) giving up a lot of their personal power to that teacher.

Dan showing me (a doubting thomas by nature) something usually goes like this:

(1) I am the uke - and he does something seemingly impossible.
I think, is what is happening what he is saying is happening or is there some alternative explanation. Am I being suckered into not really pushing as hard or as focused where I am trying to push (for instance)? I experiment the entire time looking to challenge what is being shown. (I even managed to disturb what I thought was _really_ going on once and then I found out that Dan was just experimenting with me. An instant admiration was born.)

(2) Then - he switches roles, helps me correct my structure if needed (yeah that's still needed a LOT but it used to take a few hours, now it takes several long minutes - I'll get to instantly - it's just a matter of time ) When I am corrected, it works with Dan pushing on me.

(3) Then he lets me try it with one of his regulars. Sometimes I fall apart - and I sincerely wondered is Dan just taking ukemi in that way because he convinced himself that this is what is supposed to happen - and are the regulars a bit more honest? But I wondered the same about Gleason sensei many times, and I have years of experience to know to look critically while keeping my mind open.

(4) Dan comes back, fixes my structure/intentions and everything goes a little better.

I noticed over a year or so that some of the new regulars could also do things to me that Dan can (and they couldn't when I first met them). That was a big selling point to me.

I also noticed that what he was showing me was jiving with what I'd previously been too dense to understand about what Gleason sensei has been telling me and showing me for a long time. That was also very convincing.

Now, sometimes I get to work with the regulars a bit more often, and I can feel the power canges when he corrects them (as I am their uke). That is also very convincing.

I suppose until I can do these things myself (with no correction) on another doubting thomas I'll remain a bit skeptical - simply because that is my nature.

As an aside, if someone else came on the scene and just demolished Dan with their abilities and showed him how THEY were training, Dan would be totally open to trying it (and so would I). And we'd both probably approach it the same way - optimistically with skepticism... But we'd approach it...

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 06-25-2008 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:38 AM   #132
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

To summarize and help get back on topic:

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This thread is not about me. It is about two things
a) The people in aikido who have felt these skills from Rob, Ark, Mike or me or in some cases combinations thereof and how it has impacted either there overall view of Aiki, view of aiki in aikido, and how the pursuit of it is impacting their aikido and how they train it within or without.
b) How the various reports here have impacted the community and a chance for that community to address those in aikido who have felt these skills
c) To NOT discuss the validity or doubts of these skills with the typical people. There are many threads available for that.
Dan posted two sets of questions in later posts:

For those that went:
1. Why did you go?
2. What did it feel like?
3. How do you see it impacting the art.
4. What happens next in your training or school?
5. How to remain doing Aikido™ while trying to finally learn Aiki...do. Or to separate the training.
6. Doing Aikido™ on opposite nights from getting together to practice Aiki...do. Or do you train it everyday on your own? With a group from within the dojo?

For those that haven't gone:
1. Who are all these people?
2. Who have these people felt and trained under?
3. Have they been all over like me?
4. Did they think like me?
5. Why are they now on the other side of the equation and all training this way after some of them only feeling it once or twice?
6. What could have caused so many to change their direction or views?
7. Am I missing something in the direction I am heading in?
8. Should I consider the witness of these experienced men and be searching in that direction?

I think some of us have asked and/or answered many of those questions. I reread the thread and there are some very good posts in there. But, the people participating are still a small subset of the larger aikido community. Where is everyone else?

Mark
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:48 AM   #133
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
How many of the Aikidoka seminar attendees, or those who have gone beyond to regularly train internal skills- now possibly numbering somewhere in the low hundreds- have reconsidered their view of what aiki is and what they used to think it was in their aikido ™ V Aiki…do?
As background, my initial Aikido training was during the mid seventies with a Ki Society group in Guam. Our primary teachers were David H, Kalama and Koretoshi Maruyama, who was the Chief Instructor of the Ki Society at that time. As early Ki Society, Ki and Aiki were primary topics and both these instructors had "IT" and taught "IT"

Upon returning to the states, I drifted in an out of Aikido, but I was always looking for teachers who could give me the same feeling and instruction I got from these teachers in Guam - unfortunately, that just was not readily available. There are a handful of high ranking instructors (Saotome, Ikeda, Gleason, Bill Witt, Sato) I had the opportunity to feel "IT" from - however, they may have had "IT" but they certainly were not teaching "IT" -- except Gleason is the only high ranking gaijin instructor (outside of the Ki Society of course) I have heard that will actually talk about Ki in his seminars.

Subsequently, I ended up with a small independent group whose main focus is the exploration of internal energies and how they are manifested in external techniques; mostly mainstream aikido techniques with a handful of Daito-ryu stuff thrown in on occasion.

I have not trained with Dan, Mike, or the Anukai, but our small group recently had the opportunity to train with Howard Popkin of the Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai. As mentioned elsewhere, Howard certainly has "IT" and Howard will teach "IT" Therefore, our group has joined the Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai, New York Shibu, and are currently applying for Study Group status. I know every one wants to know how all this stuff works, but I am afraid I cannot answer that for two reasons: 1) we just started and are really not sure ourselves, and 2) Howard threatened to hunt us down and kill us if he saw any of his stuff up on the web; of course that statement was made tongue-in-cheek, but I felt a modicum of truth in it :-)

So to answer one of Dan's questions, I do not think we are a group of aikido folks that have made a shift due to our exposure to internal energies - I think we are a group of Aiki folks that just found a better source for the knowledge we were already looking for.

Greg Steckel
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:57 AM   #134
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Where is everyone else?
I'm sorry Mark, but I am really beginning to think it doesn't matter!

You are where you are...after all.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:05 PM   #135
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
So to answer one of Dan's questions, I do not think we are a group of aikido folks that have made a shift due to our exposure to internal energies - I think we are a group of Aiki folks that just found a better source for the knowledge we were already looking for.

Greg Steckel
Jumping Joehoseaphat!!! This sums it up perfectly for me too.

Which is the reason I am still "looking for it."

William Hazen
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:06 PM   #136
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
So to answer one of Dan's questions, I do not think we are a group of aikido folks that have made a shift due to our exposure to internal energies - I think we are a group of Aiki folks that just found a better source for the knowledge we were already looking for.

Greg Steckel
Greg
Daito ryu is where I found it and trained it. Howard may tell you privately, that there are just as many in DR who don't have "it" either. Then he may threaten to kill you if you say that in public. Or maybe not. Howard?
He can't kill me...Cause I don't drink his beer.

I do love dragging him into these little discussions of ours and getting him all cranked up though.
You found a good man.
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:21 PM   #137
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Greg
Daito ryu is where I found it and trained it. Howard may tell you privately, that there are just as many in DR who don't have "it" either. Then he may threaten to kill you if you say that in public. Or maybe not. Howard?
He can't kill me...Cause I don't drink his beer.

I do love dragging him into these little discussions of ours and getting him all cranked up though.
You found a good man.
Well, I have been around a lot of mats and I know a good man when I feel one ! damn, did I just say that in an international forum http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/images/smilies/freaks.gif
well, you guys all know what I mean, right?
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/images...es/biggrin.gif

Greg
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:35 PM   #138
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Hi Ron
Actually when Ellis finally shamed me into opening my door-you were one of the first ones allowed in. His sentiments were simple but profound (I hate that about him)
"Instead of criticizing and pointing out their failings- how about making a difference and helping. You just may find another you; sincere, hard working, and doggedly determined to get it."
I decided, if was going to do it, I would at least do it as best as I can manage with my life as it is.
So even though you are right that maybe only 5% will get it in the end, There are obviously many who are looking.
Just a few short years ago, here on this board, few believed we knew something that could be taught "outside' of aikido that was, all along, the power at the very heart of making aiki exist. Further that it could be gotten much faster than, doing kata for twenty years hoping to get there.
So, and here's where I nail you...don't bail on me now. I opened the door and decided to help. There is now and going to be more in the near future more in aikido who want to work on aiki. They need to hear from you, then may want to train with you. There are (pretend I'm Ellis, I can neither talk or write like him) "more sincere, hard working, and doggedly determined...Ron Tisdales out trying to get it."
I remember a certain guy asking me to come train and being turned away something like a dozen times over ten years. until Ellis got me drunk and started all this trouble.
When the time comes-give back.

Last edited by DH : 06-25-2008 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:45 PM   #139
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I remember a certain guy asking me to come train and being turned away something like a dozen times over ten years. until Ellis got me drunk and started all this trouble.
So there is hope for me yet???
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:48 PM   #140
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
until Ellis got me drunk and started all this trouble.
When the time comes-give back.
So, um, you're trying to tell us to get Ellis drunk and start trouble? So, is that trouble with Ellis or against Ellis? There's a big difference there.
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:53 PM   #141
Howard Popkin
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Dan,

You are welcome to my beer anytime.

As for Greg...Good answer

Dan tells you that the information is available , but the answer is still training.

From all accounts, Dan is a training animal. That is the true secret.

But if you are training like an animal in the wrong direction, then you will become very good at something else, not Aiki.

Be well,

Shark tournament this weekend. Wish me luck !

Howard
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Old 06-25-2008, 01:17 PM   #142
gregstec
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Dan,

You are welcome to my beer anytime.

As for Greg...Good answer

Dan tells you that the information is available , but the answer is still training.

From all accounts, Dan is a training animal. That is the true secret.

But if you are training like an animal in the wrong direction, then you will become very good at something else, not Aiki.

Be well,

Shark tournament this weekend. Wish me luck !

Howard
Howard,

As you get older you realize there truly are no shortcuts and there is no substitute for training. However, I believe in training smarter and not just harder - I think we just got a whole lot smarter when we turned out attention to Roppokai for Aiki...

I understand you are a 'fishing' animal - therefore, I believe the sharks are the ones who need the luck

Talk to you later and we will see you in August.

Best

Greg
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Old 06-25-2008, 01:28 PM   #143
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
When the time comes-give back.
IF the time comes, don't worry, I will! I've got too many good examples. It's just the hard work between now and then that's kicking me in the butt!
Best Always,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-25-2008, 01:31 PM   #144
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post

From all accounts, Dan is a training animal. That is the true secret.
But if you are training like an animal in the wrong direction, then you will become very good at something else, not Aiki.

Howard
A very good point, Howard!
My favorite Expression. "Hi, how often did you train this week?"

So, there's another question for all those who are now training this way.
"How often did you train this week?"
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Old 06-25-2008, 01:33 PM   #145
Budd
 
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
To summarize and help get back on topic:

For those that went:
1. Why did you go?
2. What did it feel like?
3. How do you see it impacting the art.
4. What happens next in your training or school?
5. How to remain doing Aikido™ while trying to finally learn Aiki...do. Or to separate the training.
6. Doing Aikido™ on opposite nights from getting together to practice Aiki...do. Or do you train it everyday on your own? With a group from within the dojo?

I reread the thread and there are some very good posts in there. But, the people participating are still a small subset of the larger aikido community. Where is everyone else?

Mark
1. I was invited and it looked interesting. I invited someone else and he came to visit. I'd been hearing things from reasonable sources, both online and offline, and it looked like something I should investigate for myself.

2. Based on exposure to more than one person -- It felt "different". It was something I couldn't easily replicate and wasn't based on any "technique" that I had known or learned, rather it was a way of holding yourself and moving to receive and generate forces. It wasn't magic, but you could see that it would require training and conditioning in order to achieve it. It was also explained in such a way that you could see that there was a logical progression to what you should be able to demonstrate and repeat. Training your own body to do that is then up to you and is by no means an easy thing.

3. It's like anything else - how do you define "the art"? Will it impact my practice? It already has - it's not like a technique, you can't just do it a little bit, then do something else - it's about completely changing the way you move - conditioning the body to feel connections and paths inside you, thereby allowing you to receive and generate forces in a manner which is much less visible to the eye, while also enabling you to "listen" to what someone else is doing with a lot more sensitivity. Again, it's a skill that requires training, not magic (though some of the things people with a modicum of skill can do with it might *seem* magical), but, yeah - if you have any genuine curiosity about it - you really need to go feel someone that's doing it.

4. I practice. We practice. I don't really talk much specifics about what we do at our dojo anyway, these days, at least not online. People that really want to know eventually turn up here, one way or another . Of course, what they get out of it, at that point, is up to them.

5. Practice by making sure that your Aikido tm is driven by Aiki . . do.

6. I make everything part of training (opening and closing doors is a biggie) to change the way my body moves. Lifting a coffee cup, standing up from a chair, on a break pushing a rolling chair around around the room, doing suburi, jo and spear exercises, pushing against a wall, hitting a punching bag. So, yeah, when I'm officially in Aikido tm class, that's also part of training Aiki . . .do. I train everyday on my own and some days with the group at Itten Dojo.

Look, I understand that nobody wants to be told that what they're doing is wrong. Everyone wants to feel validated in offering their own "take" and to some degree . . .yeah, we're all people with valid viewpoints . . .but taken in the context of measureable performance, there's just no question in my mind that training this way is critical in one's martial development. Believe me - there's still people that now feel part of "the club" that say they are working on these things that I'm reasonably sure are just spinning their wheels and doing more talking than training (and will have the results, or lack of, to show for it).

So to that end, getting exposed to it is ony part of it, which is why only a percentage are ever going to get anywhere with it. You have to put in the work, effort and time to understand it, make it part of you - or you may not get anywhere further than anyone else in the "Me, too" or "If I just do this everyday, someday I will understand" clubs.

To that end, I'll be just as curious as anyone to see how this gets passed or spread more evidently back into the mainstream aikido world.
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Old 06-25-2008, 01:49 PM   #146
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
[snip]I remember a certain guy asking me to come train and being turned away something like a dozen times over ten years. until Ellis got me drunk and started all this trouble.
When the time comes-give back.
Gentlemen:

I have it on good information that the Ki to unlocking Mr. Harden's treasure chest of training tips is a strong, tasty mojito--several, in fact.
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Old 06-25-2008, 02:18 PM   #147
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Rob MacPherson wrote: View Post
from discovering some of the body paths etc via Aunkai and Roppokai training, that I had only the vaguest idea of what the misogi were supposed to be burning in....so it was of very little benefit to me at the time despite doing thousands of reps. Approaching the same movements now, even with my limited understanding makes them seem much richer in terms of internal training.
This is inline with my intuition, and has become my plan as well. -Rob
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Old 06-25-2008, 02:42 PM   #148
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Open is good, just taste that fresh air!

We need your perspectives, same as all the others. Please join more often!
Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-25-2008, 04:29 PM   #149
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Erik
Over the years your arguments ...
... have developed as I find better ways to articulate a fundamental thought. For who is this not true? The thought and the thing it refers to have not changed -- it is too big to adequately get in a linear pass to describing it thoroughly. I note that you have not tried to articulate it in physical terms -- which I don't fault. So don't be knocking on those of us who are -- until you have more to offer on THAT front, regardless the value of your goods on other fronts.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Asking everyone to doubt the witness of yudansha, up to 6th dan and many teachers in aikido and telling us to write their experiences off as charisma, charm and magicians arts.
YOU are asking people to doubt the same -- the other way. Read what I wrote, I don't doubt you, people speak well of you -- I just don't think people should be persuaded by that kind of argument, -- too many people are, and whatever you have of value, which I will freely concede you very well do -- I don't think YOU have the whole picture of what the situation is elsewhere -- and people should be more cautious signing onto the unknown when it may be no better for them, or get the anyplace sooner or better, depending on their goals, their needs and their situation. That is all.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Be that as it may, this is some of the input I was asking for. Being that it is so transparent- I thank you for putting it in writing.
You are welcome.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-25-2008, 04:48 PM   #150
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I am interested in what would persuade you Erick?
Short answer -- I don't persuade. I explore and come to my own conclusions. I don't discard anything that ahs been said or presented, but I don't just accept it either, unless it is simply irrational not to. On every thing else I keep an open and critical mind.

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
For me I have to go visit the person myself. One touch and I know whether I need to stay for the rest of the class and explore further. ..
If someone I find reasonably informed and has a credible background has been persuaded of something I'm willing to re-consider my views and open myself up to the possibilities.

I believe that was what Dan was looking to find out - have other people re-considered their ideas at all given the spread of "trust" / "witness" growing in this aikiweb community.
That was kind of my point in the criticism about the rhetorical questions. Trust is not the point, at least as I (skeptical bastard that I am) approach matters. Relying on trust in matters of adversarial conflict ( the presumed nature of the aiki community, not withstanding) is NOT my first choice -- even if I do not think that Dan is my adversary (and I don't). I have been in adversary work for my adult life in various guises. I try to remain professional even ( and especially) in adversarial settings, and there is truth that comes from being adversarial in itself. I am critical and seek to winnow down to objective statements, not just vouchers.

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
As an aside, that has been the majority of what Gleason sensei teaches. Never to get too comfortable with what you think yo know.
Sound advice. I try to follow that myself. As mistrusting and critical of my own perceptions as I have learned to be (try flying on instruments sometime) I am no more accepting with what other people think they know, either, just cause they say so, even if I believe what he reportedly does (and I do) that doesn't answer my question. And my question is not Dan's question, and probably not yours either ... though I hope you may understand it better form our discussion.-

Good discussion all around, however, so ...

Thanks, Dan.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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