Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-18-2008, 11:13 AM   #301
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 906
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
And he brought in a lot of revenue.

FL
And he kept his "new" training methods separate from the Aikido classes he was teaching (in the kenkyukai). If I'm not mistaken, his new training methods were also one of the sources of friction that led to the split...

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
TNBBC Blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2008, 11:19 AM   #302
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

So the 10th dan business seems to indicate a faith in the potential to do aikido to the 10th degree - and the rest seems to indicate certain decisions that I'm not sure I would make myself...
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2008, 11:20 AM   #303
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 530
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
If (as Kisshomaru proposed in "Spirit of Aikido") OSensei's genius was not only his new vision/understanding of "AiKi" but also his new *teaching methodolgoy/paradigm*, if we intentionally change that paradigm (one of the defining attributes of OSensei's Aikido according to his son) is it safe to say we have indeed stepped away from Aikido™?

Discuss...
Hi Chris,

I suspect that Prof. Goldsbury will probably answer this question and others in his upcoming columns.

As for me, I think it is interesting that many, if not all, of the students that trained exclusively (the vast majority of their instruction and hands-on experience coming from O-sensei) or extensively with O-sensei, some how do a "different Aikido" than the "new *teaching methodolgoy/paradigm*" attributed to O-sensei by his son. How could that be?

It can be argued that Kisshomaru was also an extensive student of his father. But I suspect that Peter is going to show that Kisshomaru modified things, and then justified them in various ways, rather than attempting to "walk in his father's footsteps" as it were.

If this is true, then the cat's already out of the bag as far as stepping away from Aikido . . . maybe. For example there is lots of video on You Tube available now showing O-sensei doing lots of weapons work right up into the 60's . . . but that wasn't emphasized in Tokyo. In fact there are stories of O-sensei blowing his top (again) because folks there were trying to engage in weapons practice without instruction. Of course we know that that chastisement didn't stop folks from adopting, adapting, and/or creating their own weapons work.

Anyway, my question is: If O-sensei is doing weapons work and others are doing no weapons work or other weapons work, are the others following O-sensei's "new *teaching methodolgoy/paradigm*?"

Then there is the practical approach . . . Chris and I and many others I suspect have been told, "That's not Aikido!" Which raises the question, "What is Aikido?" And the (often unspoken) answer is almost always, "The Aikido I'm doing (of course)!" And I'm guessing this isn't going to change any time soon!

~ Allen Beebe
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2008, 11:37 AM   #304
Fred Little
Dojo: NJIT Budokai
Location: State Line NJ/NY
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 613
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
And he kept his "new" training methods separate from the Aikido classes he was teaching (in the kenkyukai). If I'm not mistaken, his new training methods were also one of the sources of friction that led to the split...
Christian,

If my understanding of the timeline is correct, he did not initially separate his "new" training methods, however, once the friction had arisen, he agreed to do so in an (ultimately unsuccessful) attempt to smooth things out.

If my understanding of the circumstances is correct, while great public emphasis is placed on differences in philosophical and methodological approach, we are talking about a family business, and it would be remarkable if rather more private familial issues didn't also played a role.

After all, Ueshiba K. and Tohei K. were married to sisters.

This makes the current heads of Aikikai Hombu and Ki no Kenkyukai first cousins, if I'm not mistaken.

Best,

FL
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2008, 11:51 AM   #305
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 906
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
I suspect that Prof. Goldsbury will probably answer this question and others in his upcoming columns.
I'm hoping the same thing. I look forward to each one.

My own opinion is that Aikido™ is not OSensei's Aikido. Further, I think the closest thing to that would probably be Shin'ei Taido. But for all the talk about OSensei's vision, or his Aikido, I don't really think it exists, maybe never did except for him.

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Then there is the practical approach . . . Chris and I and many others I suspect have been told, "That's not Aikido!" Which raises the question, "What is Aikido?" And the (often unspoken) answer is almost always, "The Aikido I'm doing (of course)!" And I'm guessing this isn't going to change any time soon!
That's why I find it so freeing to respond with, "You're right, it's not, so do you wanna learn what I'm doing or not?"

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
TNBBC Blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2008, 12:12 PM   #306
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 530
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I'm hoping the same thing. I look forward to each one.
Me too. You rock Peter!

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
But for all the talk about OSensei's vision, or his Aikido, I don't really think it exists, maybe never did except for him.
Careful there Pal . . . that's coming dangerously close to sounding Buddhist n sh**.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
That's why I find it so freeing to respond with, "You're right, it's not, so do you wanna learn what I'm doing or not?"
What? But I thought it was you who told me that wearing no "support" was "freeing" and Rob told me it wouldn't matter as long as I had "good connection" and "proper structure" . . . and isn't it all about contradictory forces? "Pulling-up" while "hanging down," etc.?

~ Allen Beebe
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2008, 12:47 PM   #307
Eric Joyce
Dojo: Budoshingikan
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 179
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Rob wrote:

I find it interesting that in most pedagogies we start people out with core curriculum say as an Undergraduate before moving on to a masters and PhD.

However in aikido we seem to feel that it is okay to skip all that stuff and allow people to move on to PhD level development from day one.

I say this after spending 10 plus years in aikido only to go back to BJJ and now Judo to develop a sound base. The last 5 years have been a huge epiphany to me that I think I had it all wrong. I only imagine where I'd be if I'd started out 15 years ago in BJJ or Judo and the last 5 years in aikido!
Hi Kevin or Rob,

I had the same thoughts several years ago as well. I have done Yoshinkan aikido for almost 5 years. After I moved, I found a jujitsu dojo close by that I joined. During that time, I had a few questions that were answered that I had on my mine from my previous training.

Here is a question I have for you...would it make sense for people to start in jujitsu before aikido to get a strong base? I am not saying this to cause controversy, but I was curious. I can say this, the training I did receive from my Yoshinkan days served me very well when doing jujutsu. I had a pretty decent base already, but some things opened my eyes. Now I am doing both Yoshinkan and jujitsu and loving it.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2008, 12:58 PM   #308
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 906
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
What? But I thought it was you who told me that wearing no "support" was "freeing" and Rob told me it wouldn't matter as long as I had "good connection" and "proper structure" . . . and isn't it all about contradictory forces? "Pulling-up" while "hanging down," etc.?
Now I'm confused, are we still talking about Aikido™ or Utilikilts?

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
TNBBC Blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2008, 01:04 PM   #309
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

In all honestly, the only thing that you can rely on is to find a good teacher that meets your needs in ANYTHING and start with that. If you have all good teachers, then it depends on your mindset. You will become the mind you train. So:

I think starting with a good aikido teacher --> meaning who has aiki skills and can deliver is the best way to start aikido.

I think starting with a good MMA teacher --> meaning who has aiki skills and can deliver is the best way to start MMA.

I think starting and staying with with good teachers in general --> meaning who have aiki skills and can deliver them to both aikido and MMA and knife fighting, etc, and in doing misogi training and learning about the spiritual principles that they are physically and mentally manifesting is the best of all. And my feelings wont be hurt if no one agrees. And my mind probably won't change much either. I'll call that aikido and you'll have to be a total bad-ass to convince me otherwise.

Rob
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2008, 01:26 PM   #310
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 530
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Now I'm confused, are we still talking about Aikido™ or Utilikilts?
Our local Highland Games is tomorrow . . . Caber-nage anyone?

Highland Games question of the day: If Cabers had a minds, would they be subject to no-touch throws?

~ Allen Beebe
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2008, 01:54 PM   #311
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

One thing for sure Allen, I ain't touchin' that caber...

I'm not wearing a kilt either. A kanzu, or kikoi, but not a kilt...


Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 07-18-2008 at 01:56 PM.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2008, 02:55 PM   #312
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 530
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?




~ Allen Beebe
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2008, 06:55 PM   #313
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Eric Joyce wrote:

Quote:
Hi Kevin or Rob,

I had the same thoughts several years ago as well. I have done Yoshinkan aikido for almost 5 years. After I moved, I found a jujitsu dojo close by that I joined. During that time, I had a few questions that were answered that I had on my mine from my previous training.

Here is a question I have for you...would it make sense for people to start in jujitsu before aikido to get a strong base? I am not saying this to cause controversy, but I was curious. I can say this, the training I did receive from my Yoshinkan days served me very well when doing jujutsu. I had a pretty decent base already, but some things opened my eyes. Now I am doing both Yoshinkan and jujitsu and loving it.
I don't believe there is any one definitive answer out there. Frankly I only have an opinion based on my limited experiences and I am by no means a master even remotely of jiujitsu or aikido with any depth at all...so please consider that in what I offer in opinion.

Like you my aikido skills did provide me a decent foundation to learn jiujitsu and vice versa. I am now getting involved in Judo as well which is opening up doors to things and methods as well.

My thoughts these days are pretty much in line with Rob Liberti. That is, get a good teacher.

I am not even remotely criticizing my teachers, who btw read aikiweb and post, so I want to point that out. (they know this, fwiw)

Good teachers can be in aikido and in jiujitsu, judo etc. I have been very fortunate to have found good teachers over the years.

Anyway, back to methodology.

Today if I could do it correctly/ideally.... I think Chris Moses is on the right track. I'd spend time doing basic development skills 15 or 20 minutes at the beginning of class, a big suck fest really and then tell people if you don't like suck...go home and do these on your own and it will suck less for you.

I'd also spend time on basic judo and jiujistu skills and get students up to a blue belt level in the first year or so. I'd also encourage competition and KI testing (if I knew how to do that...I don't).

From there I think I'd then "graduate" them to advance training to start working on aiki stuff maybe....however aiki along the lines of what Ark, Mike, and Dan do...not so much the shihogage, nikkyo, kaitenage technique focused aiki...but core stuff. KI testing would become emphasized more and more. Also continue to encourage competition in judo, jiujitsu, and grappling tournaments....maybe even push hands...who knows!

Once a good base was developed, then maybe we could start looking past all that competition and really start focusing on the whole philosophical, teaching, and transmission thing as students would now have a very broad base to have opinions and ideas.

(BTW...I am looking for a teacher or school that does all this...haven't found one) Ark comes the closest, alas he is in Japan!

The problem I have with the sole focus on internal training and exercises is that it is sort of like learning to use a hammer very efficiently for many years by pounding nails into a board over and over with no actual application. After you have this skill perfected, you THEN start trying to build a house, only to find out that you don't know how to use other tools or how to actually build the house! you are very good at a using a hammer though...one of the best in the world.

I think if you are looking at the Martial Aspects of Internal training, you have to do some stuff concurrently.

Yes, there are always trade offs...I will atest to that as a jack of many trades and a master of none! Heck there are only so many hours in the day!

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2008, 07:37 PM   #314
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
If it was my dojo to do with as I please, I'd just scrap the whole concept of "aiki" for a while and focus on basic bodywork (Aunkai basics) and basic jujutsu (with a big focus on kuzushi skills and awareness). After that foundation was in place, we could start looking at aiki.
Yep. Basically what I'm doing.

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
As for me, I think it is interesting that many, if not all, of the students that trained exclusively (the vast majority of their instruction and hands-on experience coming from O-sensei) or extensively with O-sensei, some how do a "different Aikido" than the "new *teaching methodolgoy/paradigm*" attributed to O-sensei by his son. How could that be?
That's an easy answer. They learned Daito ryu. They sure didn't call it "Aikido" until that name was designated later. And they all did different things, just like the Daito ryu students who came from Takeda.

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Then there is the practical approach . . . Chris and I and many others I suspect have been told, "That's not Aikido!" Which raises the question, "What is Aikido?" And the (often unspoken) answer is almost always, "The Aikido I'm doing (of course)!" And I'm guessing this isn't going to change any time soon!
Yeah, but anymore if someone says "That's not Aikido", I tend to take it as a compliment.

As someone told me, there's Budo Wallpaper and there's those that stand out from it. I guess I'd rather take a step outward, fall flat on my face time and time again than lean, or be stuck against the wall. I'm just stubborn like that. It's the Scottish blood in me, I think.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2008, 09:35 PM   #315
Lee Salzman
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 405
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
The problem I have with the sole focus on internal training and exercises is that it is sort of like learning to use a hammer very efficiently for many years by pounding nails into a board over and over with no actual application. After you have this skill perfected, you THEN start trying to build a house, only to find out that you don't know how to use other tools or how to actually build the house! you are very good at a using a hammer though...one of the best in the world.

I think if you are looking at the Martial Aspects of Internal training, you have to do some stuff concurrently.!
How good is your hammer if it can't build a house? Who let it past quality assurance?

"Internal" training benefits from progressive resistance to continually push your boundaries. How can you be continually progressive without eventually getting to the point of testing against escalating martial, or at least athletic, situations (Xeno's paradox maybe)?

This was a real problem for me with aikido. I was never lucky in finding sufficient resistance to really challenge the "internal" aspect of my training, except for maybe the occasional brute who comes into the aikido dojo once in a while (but then he is quickly ruined when sensei tells him he must "relax" and not use "strength"). I found the situation more favorable in BJJ and judo clubs, where there is enough honest resistance given to me to challenge me (though usually too much at the moment). I can take those defects home with me and spend time fixing them, so that when I come back they're at least lessened, if not gone, or better than ever. Ain't that the point of it? The one feeds the other and vice versa.

And without those resistance challenges, you're just following someone else's map to being the "grand ultimate aiki master of everything". People's subtle defects and strengths are individual, so why shouldn't the training be, according to observation and testing?

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 07-18-2008 at 09:40 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 07:20 AM   #316
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

You know, we've been talking about how some of us are dealing with learning internal structure and how that is affecting our aikido. Budd and Itten dojo kind of have a different setup than most. Ron is training in a Yoshinkan dojo. I've temporarily stopped aikido training. Etc, etc, etc.

But, none of us have asked the question of what did Mike or Dan or Akuzawa do when they started learning this stuff. Rob John is kind of an exception because he's learning at a place that teaches body structure. But, what happened to the other three when they started getting some structure?

Rob? (I don't think Akuzawa reads Aikiweb. But, I could be wrong.)
Mike?
Dan?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 09:14 AM   #317
Gernot Hassenpflug
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 319
Japan
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Rob will probably give more details, but the gist of it is, that 99.99% of all of us reading this would a) not have lasted one lesson, and b) would not have had the brains to figure out what was needed. Akuzawa apparently had a chance to feel his teacher once, and then had to figure out what to do to get such a skill.... basically he knew he had to just stand but had no instruction on how and what to do. His teacher just used to ask him, "what do you feel" but not give any hints or answers. So we consider ourselves lucky beyond the point of belief. [Abe sensei, from an older generation, is similarly reticent and similarly almost no-one gets anything from him that is really "something"].
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 09:29 AM   #318
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote: View Post
Rob will probably give more details, but the gist of it is, that 99.99% of all of us reading this would a) not have lasted one lesson, and b) would not have had the brains to figure out what was needed. Akuzawa apparently had a chance to feel his teacher once, and then had to figure out what to do to get such a skill.... basically he knew he had to just stand but had no instruction on how and what to do. His teacher just used to ask him, "what do you feel" but not give any hints or answers. So we consider ourselves lucky beyond the point of belief. [Abe sensei, from an older generation, is similarly reticent and similarly almost no-one gets anything from him that is really "something"].
Hi Gernot,

No disrespect to Akuzawa's learning abilities. But, I was wondering more along the lines of what happened *once* these three actually started getting some structure. Sort of like where some of us are at now. We are currently working a different training path to build a structure and at the same time we're training in an organizational martial art.

I don't have to have Rob's skill to know that if he joined an aikido class, not many could throw him or get him off balanced. So, then, he either has to purposefully let his balance be taken or be seen as a problem. At some point in their training, Akuzawa, Mike, and Dan had to have come across something like that. What did they do?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 09:55 AM   #319
HL1978
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: Fairfax, VA
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 424
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Mark,

From my experiences in kendo, if an instructor is demonstrating something, I will let myself be unbalanced etc. If it is regular practice I don't let it happen as much as possible. There have been no complaints.

It probably helps though that most of the people I do kendo with have similiar rankings, don't care much about "budo hierachy," and know that I go to train with the Aunkai. On the other hand various students have asked me to bounce them around.

I plan on starting some BJJ shortly, so we will see what happens there.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 10:30 AM   #320
Gernot Hassenpflug
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 319
Japan
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hi Gernot,

No disrespect to Akuzawa's learning abilities. But, I was wondering more along the lines of what happened *once* these three actually started getting some structure. Sort of like where some of us are at now. We are currently working a different training path to build a structure and at the same time we're training in an organizational martial art.

I don't have to have Rob's skill to know that if he joined an aikido class, not many could throw him or get him off balanced. So, then, he either has to purposefully let his balance be taken or be seen as a problem. At some point in their training, Akuzawa, Mike, and Dan had to have come across something like that. What did they do?
Heh, not sure how much of this should be public, so I'll keep it respectful. Basically, Ark figured out quickly that most seniors at the DR place he was at couldn't throw him. One senior ask him harshly what the heel he was there for, so Ark whispered in his ear, "To learn ... if there's anything to be learnt here" LOL
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 10:48 AM   #321
Walker
 
Walker's Avatar
Dojo: 光道館・叢雲道場
Location: Pacific Wonderland
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 219
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
You know, we've been talking about how some of us are dealing with learning internal structure and how that is affecting our aikido. Budd and Itten dojo kind of have a different setup than most. Ron is training in a Yoshinkan dojo. I've temporarily stopped aikido training. Etc, etc, etc.

But, none of us have asked the question of what did Mike or Dan or Akuzawa do when they started learning this stuff. Rob John is kind of an exception because he's learning at a place that teaches body structure. But, what happened to the other three when they started getting some structure?

Rob? (I don't think Akuzawa reads Aikiweb. But, I could be wrong.)
Mike?
Dan?
I'm none of those three, but I do have a thought. I think that people who introduce "internals" from outside their tradition are going to run into another problem soon -- a technical syllabus that does not mesh with said internal dynamics. What ya gonna do then?

I think Toby Threadgill touches on this matter in his new interview on AJ, but if he doesn't it should be understood that the "nairiki" he discusses in the interview is tailored for the waza found in SYR and vice versa. In fact, the waza comes before the internal training not the other way around so the first introduction to proper body dynamics is from within the kata.

In the aikido I do. There is initial movement training ala Tomiki's and Shida's basic solo exercises and "internal" knowledge built off of that and with additional exercises, but again waza and internal training are mutually compatable and of a piece.

So what do you do if "transmission" ie. the tradition is broken or has been interrupted in your art? If you stick a supercharged engine in a bunch of waza that don't support it I am afraid you would have to dump the waza and go free form (ala Dan), incorporate a new set of waza (ala Itten dojo), or risk a car that still won't go because it has no transmission.

-Doug Walker
光道館・叢雲道場
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 12:07 PM   #322
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

I have found nothing principally that conflicts with the internal training from aunkai with Aikido, Judo, or BJJ. Integrating it is a challenge especially in BJJ and Judo, but that has to do with me, and not what is being taught from Aunkai.

Now that said, if you have instructors that are teaching unsound things, and you "discover" that what they are doing is jacked up...well to me that is a different issue, and if it becomes too much of a contention, then maybe the "aiki" that they are doing is not so "aiki" after all.

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 02:04 PM   #323
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Bully for you Mark-what an excellent question.
I don't have time to answer today, but I would very much like to maybe later tonight or tomm-specifically how it relates to what happened to me in Aikido, then Daito ryu, then eventually leaving Aikido, only to later start to admire Ueshiba's ideals all over again.

Doug
I read the article. Its all a view, In various areas I agree- in others I disagree, with Toby.
I think you have heard it pretty clearly from Ark, Rob, Mike and myself, and I have heard it from a Chinese master level teacher who taught in Japan for over a decade and taught some of Sagawa's guys and he knew DR waza that if you truly understand internal-the vehicle is of far lessor importance. Waza becomes incidental. To think that certain things only work in your waza. or need to be trained-in your waza only- to get internal power expresses a certain level of realization that speaks for itself. It will not stand any testing of others who gained power but it in a different manner. I think you have to reach a certain level in your own training, then get out to meet real powerhouses in internals to understand both what it means and what it can do in order to see just how it's universal applicability can be true.

Aiki in Aikido is a great example. The Aiki in Daito ryu is the Aiki of aikido. Just expressed in a different manner for a proscribed (and I would bet, thoroughly planned-out) difference in outcome by Ueshiba for his AIkido vision. Something which I continue to admire. No I am not referring to Kissomarus aikido.

I continue to hope that those in Aikido™ who are now training this way, eventually make an indelible and undeniable stamp on the martial arts by reintroducing Aiki into their art and make it a power house.

One last thing
Man the net is interesting
Reading and corresponding with people is fascinating if you save their letters as the years go by. I have letters where men were arguing on E-budo against aiki-That Aiki was waza with "fine motor skills" that would not stand up to a pressured environment. In one, a certain fella was telling me I was kidding myself. That aiki was of marginal use in any serious encounter. Ten to twelve years later they now somehow magically agree and "knew it all along." Although it hasn't escaped my attention that the same people are still touting the only way to get there is through kata-usually their own.

Many martial artists are a "circle the wagon," closed group type of people. For many men in Budo, they cannot even begin to imagine how anyone could learn aiki power outside of their own boxes. They couldn't- how could you?

Last edited by DH : 08-01-2008 at 02:14 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 02:25 PM   #324
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 530
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Kevin,

I'm guessing that Doug doesn't disagree with you. He is making a slightly different point.

Using the engine metaphor, if one has an engine they can use it to make any number of things (motor vehicle, train, airplane, etc.). Basically an engine is a mechanism that facilitates the release of energy to create a specific type of mechanical force (if I'm not mistaken). Doug's point is that some engines and some engine driven mechanisms are specifically designed for each other. The potential benefit of this mutual pre-design is easy of use and possibly enhanced efficiency. So a particular Ferrari engine can work in a plane or a bumper car but it will probably work easiest and best in the Ferrari car for which it was designed. Of course the release of energy from the combustion of gasoline is relatively universal.

At least this is how I make sense out of what Doug presented.

Now if all I had was a engine using mechanism with no engine I'd be happy to get either an engine or the technology to create an engine. Then I could either convert the engine, or the mechanism, or make my own engine. Either way, maybe this is Doug's point as well, I'm retro engineering. Probably I won't come up with exactly the same thing as the original design, but maybe I'll come up with something even better! Who could tell? Certainly not I since I wouldn't know what the original was in the first place.

So you see, it all comes back to "What is Aikido, or Daito Ryu, or truth? Or, "What is Aiki and is that the force what holds a certain Aikido Action Star's hair piece on during those violet action scenes?

Allen

~ Allen Beebe
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 03:12 PM   #325
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Yet most many of the arts being discussed rely on sticking, stickyness, weight transfer, balance, mobility and taking center, absorbing ans redirecting, as well as atemi and ate waza, and locks, throws and chokes, it is not so different as a Ferrari powering a train though a chevy drive train. It's much simpler than that.

Another case in point -which I guess is experiencial- is just how many teachers have said. I can use that, I can see that in use in what we do...over and over.

Toby's points that are well made is that certain waza were probably created around certain internal applications being prequisit . And then were used as a mechanism to teach it. I think that's a point he made to me elsewhere as well, and its a good one. But it is singular to an art. I has asked him to consider the fact that there are more than likely many of "those singular things" everywhere, and many/ most would be just as relevent in the practiced fluidity of any art. Further that the results from one of those may be trained in solo or other paired forms-maybe with better results.
He can be and is more open in P.M. about some rather interesting things they do in that regard than on the net. He still has an obligation- as to be expected.
Overall, I think its easier to discuss body arts than weapon arts. There is far too much in common with two bodies contesting in a grappling format than with anaologies of engines and different drive trains that are all over the map.

Last edited by DH : 08-01-2008 at 03:15 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Handmade Aikido Gifts - Handmade functional ceramic art with aikido themes



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:07 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate