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Old 07-15-2008, 01:49 PM   #276
DH
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Well forgive me for saying Dan but how about a little vid? Ya know the infamous You Tube or a privately produced DVDR showing how to integrate Aiki into Aikido.

Heck Mark Murry did it a tad and look at the great discussion it generated...

And sorry Dan but again with all due respect you chose to wear the crown... so you have no choice but to act like a King and find a "skillful means" to impart your experience upon your subjects.

The best of the Aikiweb is about sharing the knowledge my friend and with all due respect Bud you have been talking and talking and talking....

At least folks like Abe Sensei are on film.

Respectfully

William Hazen
Well I'll pass the crown off to my betters, no thanks.
Come on William, Heck, I don't even call myself a teacher, I'm just checking stuff out like yourself. I've barely just begun. I'll see you in twenty more years. I still don't think I'll let anyone call me sensei though-I'll still be practicing.
a) Talking is fun but won't get it done
b) Video is useless and wont get it done either.
c) Training is the best, and unfortunately for many-still doesn't get it done.Why? It take too much effort for most peoples constitution and resolve.
I'll take c. one on one training, as I think its the best.
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Old 07-15-2008, 03:00 PM   #277
Dunken Francis
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

My feeling - to be shamefully brief amongst all this in-epth discussion, is that we should be looking at "Aiki-waza" (techniques, movement,kata and 'physicality') and Aiki-do (O Sensei's vision of a unified universe - however you will interpret that) as separate from a study perspective but ultimately integral to our art as a whole, and one of the key factors that distinguish it from other 'internal' arts.

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Old 07-15-2008, 11:49 PM   #278
Erick Mead
 
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
And sorry Dan but again with all due respect you chose to wear the crown... so you have no choice but to act like a King and ...
"I thought we were an autonomous collective ..?"

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 07-15-2008, 11:56 PM   #279
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Actually, I **think** the cold water bathing is tied in to some of the holding mental intensions work in the internal training. Have others noticed the incredible amount of heat you can generate working at the standing postures and movements? What about affects on the "suit" that Mike S. speaks of? How might breathing, controlling your body temp under cold water, holding the mental intentions all play together to develop lines of power, control, suit, etc.
Or .. that autonomic shivering ALSO evokes resonance radiating from the core muscles to the extremities... Tekubi furi and furitama, done right will also seriously warm you up. (at least I can see a potential physical training point to it, consistent with my views on aiki -- beyond bragging rights on who got hit on the noggin with the biggest chunk of icefloe coming over the falls...)

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-16-2008, 10:06 AM   #280
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Maybe it should be followed by "Here is a way to remain on your feet and neutralize everything I am about to do to you. Now let's try another." And so on and so on…till you made a martial artist that is potent on either side of the food chain.
Dan--

Your quote above is a good thumbnail summary of at least part of the aiki.....do method under discussion in this thread, taken from another currently active thread.

Truth be told, it breaks the unstated norm in virtually every aikido school in the United States.

A relatively senior student can do it in his or her own dojo or as guest instructor in another. (as Rob Liberti has discussed)

With virtually any other hierarchical or organizational dynamic in play, the result is social friction. That's not speculation, that's observation, at the level of individual students. My guess is that Rob will eventually find that the same thing is true at an inter-dojo or intra-organization level.

In the short-term, the normative attempt to marginalize the non-normative. Social norms typically outweigh functional norms in group contexts absent some arguably objective checking mechanism. There is no such mechanism in contemporary aikido practice.

In the long-term, the norm will either change or be revealed as an evolutionary dead-end, both functionally and socially. If I were a betting man, I'd bet on door # 2.

Now I'll just go clear off my desk so I can go on vacation, reboot my brain, and reset my attitude for the next year.

Best,

Fred
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Old 07-16-2008, 10:32 AM   #281
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

I believe Fred's summation to be accurate. Fascinating thought. Is the way Dan teaches (independantly and privately) the only way to learn some of these things? Can it be taught and learned under the constraints of your typical organizational structure? Interesting questions.
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Old 07-16-2008, 01:14 PM   #282
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Well, so far I think it can.

The people I train aikido with tend to have very good attitudes about new methods. Everyone seems to like it if I do Filipino Knife Combat after a little tanto dori. The new people like not being told to take ukemi but rather just get their resistance blown through. The senior folks like copying what I am practicing before and after normal class. I'm not teaching anything about it directly and I'm already seeing the way they hold their bodies changing while they do their aikido waza as nage and uke.

If only 1 other yondan (or higher) is interested in this approach that has their own dojo, then the second to the worst case scenario would be that I could join up with that person and form our own organization. Worst case scanario, I have seveal friends in other martial arts who are into this stuff too. I can join up with them if I want other people to train with. That's fine too. But, I don't think it will come to any of that. Quite the contrary, I think some people will learn it, and some will put a lot of effort into it. We'll see.

Rob
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Old 07-16-2008, 01:45 PM   #283
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Learning and adapting from other Martial Traditions is built in to our practice of Aikido.

No worries here.

William Hazen
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Old 07-16-2008, 02:15 PM   #284
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Learning and adapting from other Martial Traditions is built in to our practice of Aikido.

No worries here.

William Hazen
I love how Nishio Sensei begins his exposition on (seemingly) each technique in his video series, "This is how x-waza is done in 99% of Aikido. We have not done it this way in 30 years, this does not work..." All the time with that polite smile.

/that is all...

Chris Moses
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Old 07-16-2008, 02:25 PM   #285
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I love how Nishio Sensei begins his exposition on (seemingly) each technique in his video series, "This is how x-waza is done in 99% of Aikido. We have not done it this way in 30 years, this does not work..." All the time with that polite smile.

/that is all...
A little like Fujitani Sensei who uses slightly less veiled emotion and calls it Junkido.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-17-2008, 07:05 AM   #286
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

It can hardly be learned one on one.

stan
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Old 07-17-2008, 08:31 AM   #287
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
... new people like not being told to take ukemi but rather just get their resistance blown through.
It comes down to a pedagogical argument. "Resisting" ukes at the newbie level are doing things premised on a known encounter, and thus if that is not the encounter, they

1) can't resist the actual encounter;

2) if they practice to resist the way they do to a known encounter -- it will get them seriously hurt;

3) NO newbie I have known has the patience to do an hour and half of straight kokyu undo -- because they do not understand that that is where the art in the martial encounter really lives

All waza are opportunities for kokyu undo -- even if they are not understood or even taught that way initially. One can even look at breaking out of the set waza paradigm as part of the necessary shu-ha-ri. "Skip to the end" does not necessarily accomplish the same purpose.

Waza may be packaging, (road map -- pick your metaphor) but it takes a really adventurous, non-normative individual to ignore some really off-putting packaging (even if there is some sweet morsel inside).

I've figured it out -- Dan is a durian -- an aquired taste in fruit, to say the least -- and banned on the trains in Singapore.

And for those who have not done a WESTPAC in Singapore, Indonesia or Malaysia -- here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durian

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 07-17-2008, 09:00 AM   #288
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Well, this is an important aspect of aikdo and aiki...do - where are we at.

Bringing a new person into aikido is not easy. Lots of people who might have tried aikido these days grew up playing nintendo or whatever. Others are more interested in some form of "more power now" so they take Kempo or MMA or Krav, etc...

A good friend and I were discussing just the other day about numbers at large aikido seminars are on a downward trend. I see the first step towards not letting aikido die out more and more is to figure out how to keep a higher percentage of the people who do show up at the door.

When you get some new person in your aikido class, you can lose instant credibility if you have to teach someone how to react to your attempt to throw them. You can say grab here and don't let go, show them some simple aiki-game, or impress them with wristy-twisty for a while. But it is always more impressive to a new person who resists (all they will typically know - tight muscles = more stability and resistance) and you instantly blow through that - without hurting them or taking advantage of them, they think wow - I want that. The better you can do that from odd positions the more impressive. And I guess that's the point - make the best "first impression."

Rob
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Old 07-17-2008, 09:16 AM   #289
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I've figured it out -- Dan is a durian -- an aquired taste in fruit, to say the least -- and banned on the trains in Singapore.

And for those who have not done a WESTPAC in Singapore, Indonesia or Malaysia -- here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durian
Are you telling me that Dan stink and full of thorny spikes and banned from any enclosed public area?

Do you know that folks who grow duran usually walked around with steel helmet, because the ripe fruits have the tendency to slide off the stem and make surprise drop on you? Do you also know that the seeds, which is Internal to the fruit, when roasted and consumed would create massive ki production where you must stay in open area and away from open flame?

Now I wondered if I should consume more duran to help me with my aiki...do.
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Old 07-17-2008, 09:25 AM   #290
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
I see the first step towards not letting aikido die out more and more is to figure out how to keep a higher percentage of the people who do show up at the door.
Hi Rob, I'm thinking about this statement, and I think I disagree. I don't think aikido's "survival" depends on numbers at any more than a very superficial level (of course you need some amount of numbers to survive).

I *think* the nature of what we do has to change such that we actually teach kokyu undo, kokyu ho, aiki, whatever. To teach it, we must at least be on a path to being able to actually do it. Perhaps not in all situations, but certainly more often in unscripted situations. Less of the You Do This, I Do That, and You Fall Down.

Many people in today's world (and perhaps in any world) have little patience for the scripted nature of aikido...and it is *very* scripted. And yes, on those occasions where I can actually accomplish kokyu in a waza, and I'm training with a beginner (or sometimes almost anyone), I do have to be careful because the power can go from 0 to 100 in a really short time frame. The problem is the rarity of those moments, and the fact that I still depend WAY TOO MUCH on the scripted nature of the training to produce them.

If we could actually DO what we PORTRAY, Aikido would do just fine, don't you think? Even if there are 5 students per dojo, if each one of the 5 could actually DO, I don't think there would be any problem.

Best,
Ron

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Old 07-17-2008, 09:28 AM   #291
Richard Sanchez
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
rob_liberti wrote: View Post
Well, this is an important aspect of aikdo and aiki...do - where are we at.

Bringing a new person into aikido is not easy. Lots of people who might have tried aikido these days grew up playing nintendo or whatever. Others are more interested in some form of "more power now" so they take Kempo or MMA or Krav, etc...

A good friend and I were discussing just the other day about numbers at large aikido seminars are on a downward trend. I see the first step towards not letting aikido die out more and more is to figure out how to keep a higher percentage of the people who do show up at the door.

When you get some new person in your aikido class, you can lose instant credibility if you have to teach someone how to react to your attempt to throw them. You can say grab here and don't let go, show them some simple aiki-game, or impress them with wristy-twisty for a while. But it is always more impressive to a new person who resists (all they will typically know - tight muscles = more stability and resistance) and you instantly blow through that - without hurting them or taking advantage of them, they think wow - I want that. The better you can do that from odd positions the more impressive. And I guess that's the point - make the best "first impression."

Rob
Rob's last para reminded me of my first Aikido class. The instructor knew I had been contact karate fighter and said "Try to hit me". I did and they took him home in a cab. Was I embarrassed! I've remembered that for 35 years and have always tried to make sure that as a teacher I was as prepared as I could be to meet someone like the me I was then. I've been lucky so far.
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Old 07-17-2008, 09:59 AM   #292
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Rob wrote:

Quote:
When you get some new person in your aikido class, you can lose instant credibility if you have to teach someone how to react to your attempt to throw them. You can say grab here and don't let go, show them some simple aiki-game, or impress them with wristy-twisty for a while. But it is always more impressive to a new person who resists (all they will typically know - tight muscles = more stability and resistance) and you instantly blow through that - without hurting them or taking advantage of them, they think wow - I want that. The better you can do that from odd positions the more impressive. And I guess that's the point - make the best "first impression."
You could teach them the basics of jiujitsu to provide them a decent framework to build upon. They will also begin to develop the conditioning necessary to develop Aiki skills later on.

This does a couple of things. One, it allows them to pick up "gross" motorskills and learn the basics of martial movement, they learn how to respond externally to the core, and they learn some pretty good skills that are martially sound. On top of that, they are getting in shape and beginning to develop that nintendo body. Oh, you also grab their attention fast and they see and feel the value of the training that is not reliant on them standing a certain way as uke. They learn rapidily what is successful and what is not.

I find it interesting that in most pedagogies we start people out with core curriculum say as an Undergraduate before moving on to a masters and PhD.

However in aikido we seem to feel that it is okay to skip all that stuff and allow people to move on to PhD level development from day one.

I say this after spending 10 plus years in aikido only to go back to BJJ and now Judo to develop a sound base. The last 5 years have been a huge epiphany to me that I think I had it all wrong. I only imagine where I'd be if I'd started out 15 years ago in BJJ or Judo and the last 5 years in aikido!

One thing I like about Aunkai Bujutsu is that Ark seems to tie all this together in a pedagogy that actually makes alot of sense. There is good balance and structure there for those that accept the training and have the patience to sweat it out.

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Old 07-17-2008, 10:01 AM   #293
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Richard wrote:

Quote:
Rob's last para reminded me of my first Aikido class. The instructor knew I had been contact karate fighter and said "Try to hit me". I did and they took him home in a cab. Was I embarrassed! I've remembered that for 35 years and have always tried to make sure that as a teacher I was as prepared as I could be to meet someone like the me I was then. I've been lucky so far.
All I can say is watch this trailer:

http://www.thefootfistway.com/site_G.html

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Old 07-17-2008, 10:51 AM   #294
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

You know I think the point here is that we can start aproaching the Ri level or the PHD level a whole lot sooner.

In fact, I believe we can set the bar a lot higher.

Rob
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Old 07-17-2008, 11:06 AM   #295
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I love how Nishio Sensei begins his exposition on (seemingly) each technique in his video series, "This is how x-waza is done in 99% of Aikido. We have not done it this way in 30 years, this does not work..." All the time with that polite smile.

/that is all...
He he he.

Funny thing about those vids is.... Thats how he thought about those techniques in the early 90's Some of them have changed a few times since then to better adapt to other arts

So folks who buy the DVD's should realize that some of those techniques are no longer valid though they are still a good basic expression of what he did 15 or 20 years ago.

And don't get me started about his Senior Students who have taken the ball and run with it big time...Just like he dreamed they would.

Nope I am not worried about Aikido the Martial Art at all.

William Hazen
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Old 07-17-2008, 08:37 PM   #296
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Rob,

Absolutely, I think we can set the bar higher, and you can get to that PhD level alot sooner. Provided that we provide a very good martial structure, and people understand what proper and appropriate martial responses are.

I think this is one of the greatest challenges we face when bring people off the street with no martial background at all. They spend years doing stuff cluelessly or incorrectly because they never developed "basic skills".

I know that Dan, Mike, and Ark, and Rob might differ with me on this. That is having people spend time developing "basic internal skills" and framework is important. Actually I agree with this, provided that it either is distinctly clear that it is developmental and NOT martial, (which all these guys have CLEARLY stated), and in the case of Ark (probably Dan too), it is accompanied by good solid martial training.

I think many times we confuse these issues and kinda half ass do developmental framework, structural training, and martial training...and then call it "aikido", and/or "martial art".

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Old 07-18-2008, 09:03 AM   #297
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I think this is one of the greatest challenges we face when bring people off the street with no martial background at all. They spend years doing stuff cluelessly or incorrectly because they never developed "basic skills".
I'm actually facing a different problem. I recently began teaching "aikido" one day a week at a local Aikido school. So far, I don't have any complete beginners coming to my class, rather I have a mix of people with backgrounds varying from about a year to close to 10 years of training. Across the board I'm having to re-build how people do things. In some ways it would actually be easier to have complete newbies because you wouldn't need to spend so much time re-wiring how things work. I have similar issues with one of my Battou students who did kendo for quite a while, lots of habits to get rid of before we can really start conditioning his movements to be "Shinto Ryu." My task is complicated by the facts that I only have about an hour a week and I need to tailor my class such that you can squint your eyes, clap your hands, say you believe and still call it Aikido... If it was my dojo to do with as I please, I'd just scrap the whole concept of "aiki" for a while and focus on basic bodywork (Aunkai basics) and basic jujutsu (with a big focus on kuzushi skills and awareness). After that foundation was in place, we could start looking at aiki.

So along those lines, and in direct relation to the topic of this thread, here's a question:

If (as Kisshomaru proposed in "Spirit of Aikido") OSensei's genius was not only his new vision/understanding of "AiKi" but also his new *teaching methodolgoy/paradigm*, if we intentionally change that paradigm (one of the defining attributes of OSensei's Aikido according to his son) is it safe to say we have indeed stepped away from Aikido™?

Discuss...

Last edited by ChrisMoses : 07-18-2008 at 09:06 AM.

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Old 07-18-2008, 09:51 AM   #298
Walker
 
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
If (as Kisshomaru proposed in "Spirit of Aikido") OSensei's genius was not only his new vision/understanding of "AiKi" but also his new *teaching methodolgoy/paradigm*, if we intentionally change that paradigm (one of the defining attributes of OSensei's Aikido according to his son) is it safe to say we have indeed stepped away from Aikido™?

Discuss...
[Willard, bound, discusses the state of teaching with Kurtz sensei]
"They told me that you had gone totally insane, and that your methods were unsound."
"Are my methods 'unsound'?"
"I don't see a 'method' at all, sir."

As you can probably guess, I think your attempt to be systematic with the material will produce results, but "once a week" will be tough -- especially if your students are engaged in other classes.

Last edited by Walker : 07-18-2008 at 09:57 AM.

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Old 07-18-2008, 09:55 AM   #299
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Tohei went to external sources and then got promoted to 10th dan.

Rob
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Old 07-18-2008, 09:59 AM   #300
Fred Little
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Tohei went to external sources and then got promoted to 10th dan.

Rob
And he brought in a lot of revenue.

FL
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Cognard Shihan 8th Dan - Cognard Andre Shihan 8th Dan (Hanshi, DNBK) in VA, CA, AZ (June 2014)



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