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Old 06-18-2008, 02:15 AM   #1
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
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knockouts

You are in the dojo and someone gets knocked out.

The best thing to do is of course:
a) forge their name on the insurance waiver
b) carry their unconscious body to a different martial arts school and wake them up there at the door - to convince them they had better stick to your school in the future because THAT place is dangerous.

But seriously, what is the best thing to do for the person knocked out - or if a person is well on their way and you catch it in time just before lights out? I have some ideas, but I'm not medically trained. I would love to know what the recommended techniques are or if anyone has any resources about such things to share.

Thanks,
Rob
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Old 06-18-2008, 03:28 AM   #2
eyrie
 
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Re: knockouts

D
R
A
B
C

Ignatius
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:54 AM   #3
AsimHanif
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Re: knockouts

Hey Rob,
normally its not the punch, kick, or initial impact that is the danger. Its what happens next...the head hitting the floor or other object, the neck possibly twisting or snapping back, the knees folding back or twisting, etc. So try to watch out for those things and be careful how you handle the person. If its just a simple ko, just sit the person up where ever he/she is and ask them simple questions to ensure its not a serious concussion. They should be monitored carefully over night or for the next few hours.
Of course, seeking medical attention is always safe.

Asim
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Old 06-18-2008, 08:26 AM   #4
Mark Mueller
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Re: knockouts

1) Check to see if they are breathing
2) Check for a pulse
3) stabilize the head/neck/spine until they regain consciousness and then clear them for any spinal injuries (check for any back/neck pain, movement and feeling in fingers/toes) if something doesn't seem right keep them still and make the appropriate calls.
4) if everything is clear with the neck/spine have someone drive them to get checked for a concussion.
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Old 06-18-2008, 09:21 AM   #5
rob_liberti
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Re: knockouts

Thanks all. Those are all helpful.

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
D
R
A
B
C
I searched for the mnemonic DR ABC and found:

D Danger Ensuring that there are no immediate environmental dangers which may potentially injure the patient or treatment team. This may involve stopping play.
R Response Is the patient conscious? Can he/she talk?

A Airway - with cervical spine control Ensuring a clear and unobstructed airway. Remove a mouthguard (which should be present) if appropriate.
B Breathing Ensure the patient is breathing adequately.
C Circulation Ensure an adequate circulation.

So if the person is not conscious, how do you ensure adequate circulation?

Rob
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Old 06-18-2008, 09:27 AM   #6
bkedelen
 
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Re: knockouts

The first step is obviously to cease whatever kubi shime technique you were applying.

Also if you are studying Dillman Karate, try to remember what you did so you can use it on any news reporters that come by.

Last edited by bkedelen : 06-18-2008 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 06-18-2008, 09:46 AM   #7
Mark Gibbons
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Re: knockouts

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Thanks all. Those are all helpful.
....
C Circulation Ensure an adequate circulation.

So if the person is not conscious, how do you ensure adequate circulation?

Rob
Take their pulse or see if they are breathing. If they are obviously breathing then they have a pulse. Call your local 911 equivalent and start CPR if they don't have a pulse. You do have current CPR training and an auto difib unit available right?

Mark
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Old 06-18-2008, 10:12 AM   #8
rob_liberti
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Re: knockouts

I was lifegaurd what seems like a lfetime ago.
I'm pretty good with electronics, maybe I can macgyver something on the spot. What makes a good make-shift capacitor for a difibulator. We should have an anarchist's cookbook for aikido.

Rob
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Old 06-18-2008, 10:55 AM   #9
bkedelen
 
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Re: knockouts

Disposable camera's with a flash usually contain a ~600microfarad capacitor and charging apparatus. That is probably more than capable of sparking up someone's ticker
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Old 06-18-2008, 01:01 PM   #10
Janet Rosen
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Re: knockouts

If you suspect a broken neck, keeping the airway open and/or CPR is done with certain postural precautions that are taught as part of CPR training.
ANY loss of consciousness, even brief, should receive prompt medical follow up to evaluate for concussion. There can be cranial nerve damage, memory or mood changes, etc associated with a concussion, and there is always a small chance that a blow to the head might actually cause a slow bleed that won't cause symtpoms for a while.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:57 PM   #11
Angela Dunn
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Re: knockouts

*Digs out first aid notes.*

Once you done the DR ABC routine do not move the person till professional help arrives, unless that person is immediate danger. If Moved make sure to support them adequately.

If they gain consciousness then do not let them back on that mat that session, go get them checked out for any hidden injuries.

Yeah actually I think others have described it better...
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Old 06-18-2008, 05:58 PM   #12
eyrie
 
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Re: knockouts

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
So if the person is not conscious, how do you ensure adequate circulation?
You should do a first-aiders course (for legal reasons), and keep your CPR cert current each year.

If you've done your DRABC, and established they are unresponsive or unconscious, but they are breathing and they've still got a pulse... just keep them warm and call 911 (000 in Oz). If they're not breathing, apply mouth to nose/mouth resuscitation. If they've got no pulse, call for help immediately and commence CPR - 2 breaths every 5 compressions, check for breathing and pulse every 2min. This may be different depending on which first aid course you take.

In any case, first-aid is same as for shock. You don't need to worry about the other stuff - your role as first-aider is to simply render "first-aid". Let the paramedics deal with the situation when they arrive - all you have to do is render first-aid and emergency first-aid until they do.

However, if you're obliquely asking about katsu and kappo-ho - don't... for legal reasons, you shouldn't be doing those things in a first-aid situation.

Ignatius
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Old 06-18-2008, 08:32 PM   #13
rob_liberti
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Re: knockouts

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
However, if you're obliquely asking about katsu and kappo-ho - don't... for legal reasons, you shouldn't be doing those things in a first-aid situation.
I looked up the terms and found this link:
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2657

I didn't mean to obliquely ask. I was really looking for the best practices. If using those techniques is best, then I want to know more about them. If those techniques are dangerous and should be avoided then I want to know that too.

I think best practices is of course avoid being knocked out and avoid knocking someone out in class. However, I'm one of those people who likes to have a plan b. Also, I would like to know what to do if some day my son takes martial arts and gets knocked out by accident, or something.

By the way, what is the etimology of those terms?
katsu as in katsukoto = winning ???
kappo ? (a little known Marx brother?)

Thanks,
Rob
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Old 06-18-2008, 09:02 PM   #14
eyrie
 
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Re: knockouts

katsu = 活
kappo = 活法 a contraction of katsu (resuscitation) and ho (method)

Ignatius
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Old 06-18-2008, 09:51 PM   #15
Walter Martindale
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Re: knockouts

As noted by others DRABC.
Have a mop handy.
Most people empty their bladders when they're truly blacked out (that's what I've seen), and many toss their cookies when they're regaining consciousness. The "recovery position" is intended to keep the airway clear of vomit.
If they wake up, monitor and take to emerg with notes of what happened - you may have to write stuff down while waiting at the emerg.
If they don't wake up promptly and the ambulance hasn't been called - guess what..
To re-iterate:
D (make sure there's no danger)
R (check to see if they respond - last time I took CPR this involved pinching the trapezius muscle and yelling in their ear)
A (check that the airway is open - head back jaw forward, look inside to see that there's nothing jammed in the throat)
B (see if they're breathing - watch the chest to see if it's rising and falling, with your ear right in front of the mouth - the ear is really sensitive and you'll feel and hear (assuming not deaf) if they're breathing.)
C (check that there's a heart beat - carotid pulse - the neck roughly beside where the adams apple (male) is on the throat - do this on the same side of the person as you're sitting/kneeling so you don't reach across their throat.) Press only lightly - you don't want to stimulate the same reflex that judo people use to knock people out...
Somewhere around the R stage - if they're truly "out" - "YOU (name the person) and YOU - go phone for an ambulance. - tell them where we are and that we have an unconscious person. "

Those are the main steps I remember...

Even a cut carotid artery (if only one is cut) may not be fatal if you put pressure on it (top and bottom) right away - there are three other arteries (one on the other side plus the spinal arteries) supplying the brain - but you can faff about panicking.. (There was a pro NHL ice hockey player got nicked in the neck during a game this past season and was bleeding from his carotid - team-mate's skate - accidental all the way, but team staff managed to get the bleeding stopped and get him to the hospital to get sewn up)..
W
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Old 06-18-2008, 10:01 PM   #16
aikidoc
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Re: knockouts

If a pressure point knock out- katsu.

Otherwise, first aid, if regains consciousness check neurologicals: MMSE (mini-mental status exam), pupils, ability to track finger, etc.
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Old 06-18-2008, 10:02 PM   #17
eyrie
 
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Re: knockouts

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Have a mop handy.
That would be the least of your worries....

Quote:
R (check to see if they respond - last time I took CPR this involved pinching the trapezius muscle and yelling in their ear)
I was shown to press both thumbs into the brachial plexus.... which I think would be far more effective than pinching the trapezius to elicit a response.

Ignatius
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Old 06-19-2008, 05:20 AM   #18
Walter Martindale
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Re: knockouts

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
That would be the least of your worries....

I was shown to press both thumbs into the brachial plexus.... which I think would be far more effective than pinching the trapezius to elicit a response.
True - soaking up pee would be low on the priority list - anyone I've encountered unconscious woke up pretty quickly (friend, hurt knee, panicked, hyperventilated, passed out, woke up with wet pants; Opponent, knocked out from landing from ippon-seoi-nage - woke up when I put yoko-shiho-gatame on (referee called "waza-ari", I was already walking away the throw was so hard... but.. but... he's out.. Oh well..)

Guess you have to know where the brachial plexus runs. made up of a bunch of blends of nerves from the bottom half of the cervical spine - LONG time ago I could name all the branches but digging the thumbs in approximately... "behind the collarbone right next to the neck" might be a good description for people who don't know where to find the brachial plexus... If that's not close enough, I don't mind being corrected.
Cheers
W

Last edited by Walter Martindale : 06-19-2008 at 05:22 AM.
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Old 06-19-2008, 05:29 PM   #19
eyrie
 
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Re: knockouts

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
TGuess you have to know where the brachial plexus runs. made up of a bunch of blends of nerves from the bottom half of the cervical spine - LONG time ago I could name all the branches but digging the thumbs in approximately... "behind the collarbone right next to the neck" might be a good description for people who don't know where to find the brachial plexus... If that's not close enough, I don't mind being corrected.
There's always Grey's Anatomy...

The brachial plexus is a "general" area... the pressure point I'm referring to is above the middle of the clavicle in line with the nipples and mid-way between the top of the trapezius and clavicle.

Ignatius
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