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Old 06-08-2008, 10:17 AM   #1
rob_liberti
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Re: High level power abuse

I read a silly comment in this thread that "Women are not any weaker than men." The strongest women are 1.6335 times weaker than the strongest men. Here is a link: http://www.columbusweightlifting.org...MULA_FINAL.pdf

Unless that was discussing emotional strength. Then fine, but I wouldn't go with "any weaker"....

As far as this zombie thread goes, I am with what Jim said. If someone is doing something bullshit in your dojo, speak up. (And if someone is writing BS on aikiweb challenge them there too.)

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 06-08-2008 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 06-09-2008, 05:57 AM   #2
natasha cebek
 
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Re: High level power abuse

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I read a silly comment in this thread that "Women are not any weaker than men." The strongest women are 1.6335 times weaker than the strongest men. Here is a link: http://www.columbusweightlifting.org...MULA_FINAL.pdf

Unless that was discussing emotional strength. Then fine, but I wouldn't go with "any weaker"....

As far as this zombie thread goes, I am with what Jim said. If someone is doing something bullshit in your dojo, speak up. (And if someone is writing BS on aikiweb challenge them there too.)

Rob
There is NOTHING silly about that comment. If we're talking about pure physical strength - Sure, men are generally much stronger than women, so what. I suppose if Ueshiba was a woman, this would be a moot point.
A woman (by virtue of her gender) can (with relative ease), unbalance a man with just look. A highly skilled female martial artist can be a formidable (if not dangerous) opponent, to even the strongest male in the world.

I think the statement that "Women are not any weaker than men.", was meant in a broad sense.

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Old 06-09-2008, 08:30 AM   #3
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Re: High level power abuse

Quote:
Natasha Cebek wrote: View Post
A woman (by virtue of her gender) can (with relative ease), unbalance a man with just look. A highly skilled female martial artist can be a formidable (if not dangerous) opponent, to even the strongest male in the world.

I think the statement that "Women are not any weaker than men.", was meant in a broad sense.
Well said Natasha.
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Old 06-09-2008, 10:36 AM   #4
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: High level power abuse

[quote=I think the statement that "Women are not any weaker than men.", was meant in a broad sense.[/QUOTE]

Or, perhaps "in a 'brood' sense".

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 06-09-2008, 10:51 AM   #5
DH
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Re: High level power abuse

Well women are strong and able in so many apects it doesn't need to be discussed. I mean come on, women can be incredible.
Women equalling or being better than men in MA in an all out fight? I won't buy into that nonsense. I'm all for women in the MA...all for it. But equal to men? Never gonna happen.
a) A women well trained against and untrained male Ok Maybe.
b) Pound for pound and equally trained? Not a chance.
I don't think you'll ever see a women compete and succeed against equally trained men in any open venue, they would need some sort of rules to compensate, or they'll get their heads handed to them.
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Old 06-09-2008, 01:33 PM   #6
natasha cebek
 
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Re: High level power abuse

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well women are strong and able in so many apects it doesn't need to be discussed. I mean come on, women can be incredible.
Women equalling or being better than men in MA in an all out fight? I won't buy into that nonsense. I'm all for women in the MA...all for it. But equal to men? Never gonna happen.
a) A women well trained against and untrained male Ok Maybe.
b) Pound for pound and equally trained? Not a chance.
I don't think you'll ever see a women compete and succeed against equally trained men in any open venue, they would need some sort of rules to compensate, or they'll get their heads handed to them.
Amusing response, to say the least - suggesting a very limited understanding of the Martial Arts. Do you think Ueshiba (all 4 feet of him), if alive would agree with you?

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Old 06-09-2008, 02:19 PM   #7
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Re: High level power abuse

Quote:
Amusing response, to say the least - suggesting a very limited understanding of the Martial Arts. Do you think Ueshiba (all 4 feet of him), if alive would agree with you?
Yes.

Actually, I agree that one of us has a limited view of the martial arts and their real potentials and limits. That would be you. That aside, I was talking about fighting and actual results. Not martial arts. I made a clear and distinct differentiation in my response. There is a dramatic difference between the two. I think your statement- A highly skilled female martial artist can be a formidable (if not dangerous) opponent, to even the strongest male in the world. is very hopeful, but has never statistically panned out in any serious open and tested martial venue, or even a sport venue.

As for amusing responses, actually I found this statement to be sexist, presumptuous and humorous, A woman (by virtue of her gender) can (with relative ease), unbalance a man with just look.
I'm not interested in going into details but I have not found this to be true even with more open and overt behaviors. I'd suggest you think too much of your gender and too little of men.
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Old 06-09-2008, 02:26 PM   #8
Ron Tisdale
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Re: High level power abuse

Quote:
a very limited understanding of the Martial Arts.
Uh, sorry, but I know Dan, and that statement does not describe him at all.

Glad you were amused though...not enough amusement in the world, in my opinion...

Best,
Ron

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Old 06-09-2008, 02:52 PM   #9
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Re: High level power abuse

Hi Ron
I think we are discussing two different things. I took it the extra step because it is a fairly common misconception of just how far women can go in physical competition with men. It has been given more steam over the years. I think stretching the truth in teaching- is no truth at all. In fact, failing to admit and teach the almost insurmountable power differences makes it a weakness in approach, as the mindset will be more susceptible to being broken through shock.

I also didn't appreciate the sexist comment (funny how it's always OK in reverse huh?) that men can be so easily led by the merest look/whim/ dalliances of a girl. Please. What arrogance!! Oh the stories I could tell. Remind me to tell you of the time I made a girl who was hitting on me -a married man- cry in utter embarrasment.

Last edited by DH : 06-09-2008 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 06-09-2008, 02:54 PM   #10
Ron Tisdale
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Re: High level power abuse

Sounds like a good one over a beer after 6 hours of walking mabu...

I know more than one woman whose body skills are better than mine, and quite a few whose technique is better than mine. And they are all smaller than I am. But that doesn't necessarily translate to who would win in a fight. Three entirely different things...

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Ron

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Old 06-09-2008, 04:17 PM   #11
natasha cebek
 
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Re: High level power abuse

"Tomoe Gozen captured the city of Kyoto in Japan in 1584 after winning the Battle of Kurikawa. She was described as being a strong archer and excellent swordswoman.Her last act, on the verge of Yoshinaka's defeat, is the subject of many plays and poems. To buy time for her husband to commit seppuku, she rode into the enemy forces and, flinging herself on their strongest warrior, unhorsed, pinned, and decapitated him.
(source Famous Women of Japanese History.)"

I suppose that the "strongest warrior" probably let Gozen decapitate him, so that Gozen could become famous someday.

You are correct when talk about pound for pound..strength vs strength...so what, I agree men are stronger, but that doesn't mean anything. However lets use our imagination for a minute. Two opponents - a man and a woman. They are equally skilled. What determines the winner?
Strength?
Speed?
Timing?
Physics?

Furthermore, it was because of your sexist views that initiated this particular discussion.

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Old 06-09-2008, 04:25 PM   #12
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

Quote:
I agree men are stronger, but that doesn't mean anything.
Oh common...sure it does. It means that men are stronger...nothing less, and nothing more. If it's a gunfight, and the woman has better aim and draws a bead faster, she wins. Doesn't matter in that instance that the man is stronger, he still loses. Do you really think we don't get that???

Likewise, there are times when it does matter. Acknowledging that doesn't make someone sexist. Got any more labels to toss around?

Sheesh...

Oh, I forgot to mention above that they are all smarter than I am too...

Best,
Ron

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Old 06-09-2008, 05:19 PM   #13
DH
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

Hmm..Sexist?
I said
Men are stronger than women. Equally trained men will win in a physical confrontation over women. It is a reality that you think is a sexist comment. Now you change the discussion to tactical leadership and …and… agree with my earlier comments, thus making yourself? Sexist.
You on the other hand claimed all men are susceptible to being "unbalanced" by a women merely "looking at them in a certain way"
I think that is one of the most sexist and ludicrous things I have ever heard. Again, it is also arrogant, presumptuous, and speaks volumes about what you think of men.

Oh well. Nothing I offered was demeaning to a women's character was it? Please continue though, I'll lend you a shovel so you can dig deeper.
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Old 06-09-2008, 06:23 PM   #14
Keith Larman
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

An old statistics prof of mine (who was a female, fwiw) used to comment to us that the average human being has slightly less than one testicle and slightly less than one ovary... True but of limited value as information goes...

The mean value of something is a generalization across a large number. And while it gives us some guidance and understanding of the nature of the general population it is decreasingly useful the smaller the sample. When we get down to samples of one (you, me, someone else, whomever) the average tells us nothing. Except maybe how far someone deviates from it...

So... the average strength of a woman vs. the average strength of a man is interesting in a general sense. And is probably not all that relevant to two people standing in a ring faced off against each other. Especially if one is a 1970's era female Russian athlete and the other Gilbert Gottfried...

Come to think of it I'd pay to see that one...

So anyway the point is that it is silly to argue about the truth of the statement in general. It is well documented that "on the average" men are stronger than women. That said, each individual needs to deal with their own size, strength, way of using that strength, strategies for dealing with a deficit, etc. depending on where they are on the scale compared to the "other person" they're facing.

So on the average women who are attacked will likely be attacked by someone stronger than them. But of course the same is true of anyone who happens to be weaker than the average "bad guy" regardless of gender. The bigger question is whether you want to develop more raw strength or learn to use what you have at your disposal already better.... Me, I'd like to be able to take advantage of both superior strength and superior form. Or at least get as good as I can while keeping fit and strong... Seems like a reasonable goal for an individual...

But all that said most women will not be able to compete at the highest levels *if* strenght is a relevant factor. The reason being that if the top people of both genders are competing in an area where strength can be a determining factor then the scales are most certainly tipped. That *does not* mean that there cannot be very strong women who can get in the and hold their own. But the odds of them being at the very top of the pile when both genders compete is very low.

The weighting of the strenght factor in the activity is what determines that sort of advantage. If we add in other things like stealth, strategies for dealing with bad guys on the street, having the right attitude, or all the other confounding factors found in real life vs. life in a ring fight then the advantages start to balance out more. But *in the fight itself* when strength can make a difference then it is relevant. To the extent that strength matters. Which seems self-evident to me.

Last edited by Keith Larman : 06-09-2008 at 06:36 PM. Reason: Serious need for clarification...

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Old 06-09-2008, 06:35 PM   #15
Keith Larman
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

And another comment since I spent 17 years working in skills testing... I remember someone telling me that it is wrong to discriminate between two people based on a non-relevant criterion. However, the whole point of a test is to discriminate between two people. I.e., to tell them apart, to separate them. The question of validity of a measure is based on whether the criterion or criteria chosen are relevant to the task.

Strength is certainly a relevant criterion for succeeding in a "fight". Now the question becomes how you define a fight, how you define combat, and how you define success. Each of those decisions in how you define those things greatly affects the "weight" strength might have in determining outcome. So when folk bring up things like stealth, experience, etc. those mitigate the effects of strength as a factor. Of course. The bigger question is how you define things and how much you have to be better at all the other stuff to overcome the differential in strength.

I have no problem thinking many of the female sensei I've known could handle themselves against an average Joe. It is tougher when we start talking about two people of equal ability but of unequal strength. Strength can matter a great deal. To dismiss it is silly.

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Old 06-09-2008, 09:02 PM   #16
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

I can't say I disagree with your arguments, but take a look at Kyra Gracie, pound for pound she smokes the crap out of at one guy on this video. I think it is safe to say that even though I am much bigger and stronger than her, I think she'd probably chew me up and spit me out in a short order.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_MLu0FJLzE0&feature=related

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Old 06-09-2008, 09:07 PM   #17
Mike Sigman
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Re: High level power abuse

Quote:
Natasha Cebek wrote: View Post
Amusing response, to say the least - suggesting a very limited understanding of the Martial Arts. Do you think Ueshiba (all 4 feet of him), if alive would agree with you?
Er, I think you must mean "all 5 feet of him", because Ueshiba was not 4-feet tall. At his peak power, Ueshiba weighed 180 pounds. His feats of strength were famous. The implication that Ueshiba was small and slight are tremendously off-base.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-09-2008, 09:15 PM   #18
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I can't say I disagree with your arguments, but take a look at Kyra Gracie, pound for pound she smokes the crap out of at one guy on this video. I think it is safe to say that even though I am much bigger and stronger than her, I think she'd probably chew me up and spit me out in a short order.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_MLu0FJLzE0&feature=related
The problem with a lot of these male/female discussions is that a lot of the arguments for women are just examples of trying to create a rule out of the exceptions. Sure there are exceptionally capable women fighters... but statistically they're almost non-existent, even though the dream of powerful women kicking butt is an oft-seen fantasy.

Most people know the real truth that women aren't statistically going to equal men in most sports, even though there has been this recent (historically) social trend to pretend that there is no real difference between men and women. The interesting part, IMO, is to watch how many people will try to argue that what is obvious in this sort of matchup is simply not true.

The women who apply themselves, like the men, should be applauded. If someone excels, that should be applauded. But why pretend something is true when it's obviously not?

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-09-2008, 09:50 PM   #19
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

It's pretty much no argument that the average woman does not have the muscle mass or bone density of the average male. Size, bone density and muscle mass are secondary sex characteristics that can be altered by taking the hormones of the opposite sex, so these characteristics are not black-and-white in nature. Women are wired to seek out resources that will allow them to survive and raise their young.

The purpose for the difference? Male humans are wired to compete with each other for turf and females; their larger size is not for "protecting" women from wild animals and the like, but for beating out other male competitors and keeping away from his wimmin so his genes will be favored for replication.

Female humans are built for "internal strength" -- meaning they are designed biologically to withstand the rigors of pregnancy and childbirth, both of which put enormous stresses on the body. Larger muscles and heavier bones are not necessary and in fact may be detrimental to that purpose, and represent wasted energy and resources that could be put into tissues and processes necessary for reproduction.

By nature, human societies - like many other primate societies -- do best in matrifocal "communities" (i.e. "harems" of sisters, aunts, cousins and other related females) where women help one another in childrearing while one male brings home the food and other resources, and keeps other males from bothering them.

By golly, primate evolutionary ecology grad courses were fun!
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Old 06-09-2008, 10:20 PM   #20
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
It's pretty much no argument that the average woman does not have the muscle mass or bone density of the average male. Size, bone density and muscle mass are secondary sex characteristics that can be altered by taking the hormones of the opposite sex, so these characteristics are not black-and-white in nature. Women are wired to seek out resources that will allow them to survive and raise their young.

The purpose for the difference? Male humans are wired to compete with each other for turf and females; their larger size is not for "protecting" women from wild animals and the like, but for beating out other male competitors and keeping away from his wimmin so his genes will be favored for replication.

Female humans are built for "internal strength" -- meaning they are designed biologically to withstand the rigors of pregnancy and childbirth, both of which put enormous stresses on the body. Larger muscles and heavier bones are not necessary and in fact may be detrimental to that purpose, and represent wasted energy and resources that could be put into tissues and processes necessary for reproduction.

By nature, human societies - like many other primate societies -- do best in matrifocal "communities" (i.e. "harems" of sisters, aunts, cousins and other related females) where women help one another in childrearing while one male brings home the food and other resources, and keeps other males from bothering them.

By golly, primate evolutionary ecology grad courses were fun!
You forgot to talk about the latest studies which indicated that the "women of the harem" choose the alpha male. They decide how far he moves up the hierarchy. They also remove him when he can no longer present or perform. In fact, in some societies they will "kill" him.

best,
Joseph t. Oliva Arriola

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Old 06-09-2008, 10:40 PM   #21
Mike Sigman
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
It's pretty much no argument that the average woman does not have the muscle mass or bone density of the average male. Size, bone density and muscle mass are secondary sex characteristics that can be altered by taking the hormones of the opposite sex, so these characteristics are not black-and-white in nature. Women are wired to seek out resources that will allow them to survive and raise their young.

The purpose for the difference? Male humans are wired to compete with each other for turf and females; their larger size is not for "protecting" women from wild animals and the like, but for beating out other male competitors and keeping away from his wimmin so his genes will be favored for replication.

Female humans are built for "internal strength" -- meaning they are designed biologically to withstand the rigors of pregnancy and childbirth, both of which put enormous stresses on the body. Larger muscles and heavier bones are not necessary and in fact may be detrimental to that purpose, and represent wasted energy and resources that could be put into tissues and processes necessary for reproduction.

By nature, human societies - like many other primate societies -- do best in matrifocal "communities" (i.e. "harems" of sisters, aunts, cousins and other related females) where women help one another in childrearing while one male brings home the food and other resources, and keeps other males from bothering them.

By golly, primate evolutionary ecology grad courses were fun!
I'm amazed that women are the victims of so many male crimes, seeing as how they're actually in charge of things and have all the advantages. My mistake; I thought we were talking about women in the martial arts.

M
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Old 06-09-2008, 10:47 PM   #22
Buck
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

Women are stronger then men. The reason you don't see them in a venue with men is because they can get a man to do it instead. That makes them way more stronger then men.

What guy knows of another guy who would do that, get a guy to fight for him like a women does- getting a guy to fight for her so she don't have too.

How many men went to war, tried to conquer the world, etc. for a women. There are volumes in the history books.

How many women have gone to war, tried to conquer the world, etc. for a man?

Example of a men fighting over or for a women recently is in the Tia Tequilla's reality show "A Shot At Love II" It had two guys throwin punches over Tia...not that I would-she isn't my type or my reality ....besides being on the show competing for her"love." As long as men are attracted to women, and as long as women can control men with sex or the promise of it then they are the strongest. You go Tia! More power to you!

Last edited by Buck : 06-09-2008 at 10:53 PM.
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Old 06-09-2008, 11:01 PM   #23
reisler
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

I for one am glad to be smaller and weaker. I have lots of bigger and stronger friends to take care of me

Last edited by reisler : 06-09-2008 at 11:04 PM.

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Old 06-09-2008, 11:17 PM   #24
tuturuhan
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Women are stronger then men. The reason you don't see them in a venue with men is because they can get a man to do it instead. That makes them way more stronger then men.

What guy knows of another guy who would do that, get a guy to fight for him like a women does- getting a guy to fight for her so she don't have too.

How many men went to war, tried to conquer the world, etc. for a women. There are volumes in the history books.

How many women have gone to war, tried to conquer the world, etc. for a man?

Example of a men fighting over or for a women recently is in the Tia Tequilla's reality show "A Shot At Love II" It had two guys throwin punches over Tia...not that I would-she isn't my type or my reality ....besides being on the show competing for her"love." As long as men are attracted to women, and as long as women can control men with sex or the promise of it then they are the strongest. You go Tia! More power to you!
Agreed...unfortunately in this society there are a lot of men who have gone around conning women "into believing" they don't have "power". Beta men buy into the con...

Physical strength is not always an attribute. It can be a weakness. It has nothing to do with "opinion". It has all to do with the "observation of nature" and the understanding of evolutionary biology.

When I put a "knife" in the hands of my women students they don't need to go to "fake internal" seminars. They learn from day one how to use their strengths (e.g. rhythm, sensitivity and timing) to defeat their "oaf-like" opponents.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

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Old 06-09-2008, 11:42 PM   #25
Keith Larman
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I can't say I disagree with your arguments, but take a look at Kyra Gracie, pound for pound she smokes the crap out of at one guy on this video. I think it is safe to say that even though I am much bigger and stronger than her, I think she'd probably chew me up and spit me out in a short order.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_MLu0FJLzE0&feature=related
Yup, there are always exceptions and what we used to call "outlierers". Some people always seem to screw up the curve, neh?

But the underlying point remains. Men have higher bone density and muscle mass "on the average". That in and of itself says nothing about any individual (I've seen some *BIG* women and some *tiny* men), nor does it say anything about all the other factors that come together in any human behavior (experience, cunning, greater ability, etc.). But each factor exists on its own terms and whether some like to acknowledge it or not, the differences do exist.

Of course the differences do not justify thinking that strength trumps all. Or that strength is somehow "better". Strength can be a liability in some endeavors. And an asset in others. Denying the differences, however, is absurd in the face of the obvious differences between the genders.

I'm sure that lovely lady could kick my lilly white butt very quickly. Superior skill, training, etc. But again her advantage is not due to superior strength. Denying that fact would only diminish her true greatness as a fighter. She would likely beat me to a pulp due to her superior abilities. And that is a thing to be proud of.

Denything the differences exist is just silly. They exist. But thankfully the real world is a multi-factor place. It takes more than brute strength in most situations. That's the major reason I like Aikido in the first place.

When I first started I was skeptical of this stuff. Then I paired up with a woman who was easily under 5 feet tall. A very pretty, slight, quiet Japanese woman. She moved beautifully. I was thinking "Mongo going crush little woman!" but she tossed me on my neanderthal butt. Superior technique, position, and yes, internal power. That's when I decided I needed to learn this stuff. It's one thing to toss someone with brute strength. Quite another to do it so, well, elegantly... I liked that. Today? I'm pretty sure I could break her. But at the time I was given a glimpse of the "power" of everything coming together. Now how cool is that?

I can out bench press most women on the women's tennis or golf tours. But I'm pretty sure they'd beat the daylights out of me on their respective fields.

And I have sensei I outweight and I am stronger than who routinely put me in my place. Superior ability. However, last Sunday working with another instructor who outranks me considerably makes the point quit well. He tried something that didn't quite work. Given my size and strength advantage he just laughed and said he was really glad I was such a good sport. Yup, I could have broken him... Most of the time, however, he ends up on top. Which is why I train with him... Strength ain't everything.

But it is something...

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